When Six Pack changes your political stance

[lowdawg]

Which kids will actually get school choice? The ones whose parents work at a factory and can’t afford to drive the extra 30 minutes to a better school?
Doubtful, so this will do exactly what is the problem in Mississippi. Further separate the haves from the have nots, and Mississippi will never get ahead if the lower socioeconomic status people aren’t brought up!

 

[Drebin]

if you deal in facts. Then please show us these cases?

Its things like this that are truly ignorant. People THINK they know things but in reality know nothing. Its assumed football coaches cheat, its assumed good programs cheat, but reality is, its not the case.... sure some slip thru the cracks, but most follow policy.

And besides again, the rule to be eligible is so easy, there is going to be little to no reason to cheat the rule. The circumstance rarely even comes up.

Its clear you know utterly nothing about this.

 

[HuntDawg]

exactly. There arent any cases like you suggest at those numbres. Since you deal in fact. And the fact is what you claim is half the state is cheating. Yet you cant find anything remotely close to that.

Talk about painting with a broad brush.

You know nothing. Even the slightest bit. Done with this. You dont have the knowledge to have an intellectual discussion about this topic.

 

[Drebin]

exactly. There arent any cases. Since you deal in fact. And the fact is what you claim is half the state is cheating. Yet you cant find anything remotely close to that.

You know nothing. Even the slightest bit. Done with this. You dont have the knowledge to have an intellectual discussion about this topic.

You're so all over the board in this thread that you don't even remember what the original argument is. You can't articulate a point because you're too busy doubling down on broad generalities. And then you're getting frustrated and attacking me with strawman arguments when you can't defend yourself. Like I said earlier, you're probably a coach or administrator (or very close to someone who is) and you're running interference because you don't want to talk about the disease.

It's okay, I forgive you. But consider stopping. You argue like a democrat.

 

[HuntDawg]

You're so all over the board in this thread that you don't even remember what the original argument is. You can't articulate a point because you're too busy doubling down on broad generalities. And then you're getting frustrated and attacking me with strawman arguments when you can't defend yourself. Like I said earlier, you're probably a coach or administrator (or very close to someone who is) and you're running interference because you don't want to talk about the disease.

It's okay, I forgive you. But consider stopping. You argue like a democrat.

Im not all over anything. You strayed from the topic, now you cant defend your statement so you jump to another subject.

You just stated that half the state cheats in football by playing ineligible players (a minimum of 3 per team). You said you deal in fact, yet cant provide any.. so jump to the next topic quickly.

I thought an earlier statement was dumb--- ^^ that is actually the dumbest statement ive seen on these boards.

 

[Podgy]

You reference discrimination in private life and spending private money, and also use the term in an obviously different way that how I used it.
My entire post you quoted was focused only on how public funding(taxes) needs to be spent.

I fully recognize that discrimination, both your usage and my usage, exists in private life and spending decisions.

I know what you meant and don't disagree with some things. But public roads take you to private schools where cops have jurisdiction and fire depts too and then there are municipal services (sewerage, for instance). I get that kids with traechs and special needs require a different education. But you can get a student loan and go to a college of your choice, you can get TOPS in LA and go to a college of your choice, some of which have different entrance requirements. Let parents choose. I paid a lot in taxes for public schools we didn't use.

 

[Podgy]

Which kids will actually get school choice? The ones whose parents work at a factory and can’t afford to drive the extra 30 minutes to a better school?
Doubtful, so this will do exactly what is the problem in Mississippi. Further separate the haves from the have nots, and Mississippi will never get ahead if the lower socioeconomic status people aren’t brought up!

Harrison Bergeron. What exactly makes a have and have not? I want what's best for me and my family. I went to State. What's a bigger engine of inequality than our university system which is based on choice? I didn't marry a high school drop out either. I guess I'm among the halves and I'm glad for that.

 

[615dawg]

My issue is something has to be done, or in 20 years, all of our kids are going to flee the state in droves.

Speaking as probably the person on this board that has been in the most schools in the state of Mississippi, I'm telling you that at least half the schools are primarily concerned with their sports teams. And in the other half, there are large pockets that are concerned primarily with sports.

So tying postseason eligibility to failing schools is not "the dumbest idea ever on this board." Its the only thing that will work. And you also have to realize that if a school is grading an F on these standards, that it is really, really bad and something needs to happen.

There are only 22 failing schools in the state, not all are high schools.

As far as consolidation, we have 150 school districts in a state with 82 counties. We don't have to consolidate schools to get better leadership in these weaker schools. I'd a proponent of hiring 13 superintendents and paying them $250k+ each and each district office is housed at the community college and oversees the current CC district.

One county doesn't need 4 superintendents with assistant superintendents and staff.

 

[HuntDawg]

My issue is something has to be done, or in 20 years, all of our kids are going to flee the state in droves.

Speaking as probably the person on this board that has been in the most schools in the state of Mississippi, I'm telling you that at least half the schools are primarily concerned with their sports teams. And in the other half, there are large pockets that are concerned primarily with sports.

So tying postseason eligibility to failing schools is not "the dumbest idea ever on this board." Its the only thing that will work. And you also have to realize that if a school is grading an F on these standards, that it is really, really bad and something needs to happen.

There are only 22 failing schools in the state, not all are high schools.

As far as consolidation, we have 150 school districts in a state with 82 counties. We don't have to consolidate schools to get better leadership in these weaker schools. I'd a proponent of hiring 13 superintendents and paying them $250k+ each and each district office is housed at the community college and oversees the current CC district.

One county doesn't need 4 superintendents with assistant superintendents and staff.

I agree something needs to be done. Entire system should be blown up.

Disagree with half the schools are concerned about athletics to the point it deters education. Go to other states. You'll see exactly how much mississippi doesnt care about their sports teams in comparison.

Tying sports to a schools grade it by far the dumbest thing ever. Again schools dont fail because of sports. And as with my JPS argument. If you took sports away from them, they'd still be failing. Its not even a discussion. So sports being the leverage to fix schools is by far the dumbest argument on the boards.

Why choose sports? Why not the band? drama department? art department? english department if they are getting poor scores?

My bullet point thoughts:
1. entire school system is broken. Its the kind of broke that will take 2-3 steps backward before seeing any step forward happening. In other words things will get worse long before they get better... if you are truly trying to fix the problem long term
2. That wont happen because in the process of fixing it, kids will be caught in the mix, and a ton of people will lose jobs.
3. I dont think school choice is the answer, however i see why the state is trying many options to fix the current system without going to bullet point 1
4. In absolutely zero way, is athletics in schools or having schools that want to win hurting the schools education system.. if anything its a positive for it. The broken systems are broken for reasons other than athletics.

 

[HuntDawg]

My issue is something has to be done, or in 20 years, all of our kids are going to flee the state in droves.

nah they wont. They'll be in private schools. Youre seeing huge growth in private schools now. They'll continue to grow.

But agree, something needs to be done.

 

[Drebin]

Im not all over anything. You strayed from the topic, now you cant defend your statement so you jump to another subject.

You just stated that half the state cheats in football by playing ineligible players (a minimum of 3 per team). You said you deal in fact, yet cant provide any.. so jump to the next topic quickly.

I thought an earlier statement was dumb--- ^^ that is actually the dumbest statement ive seen on these boards.

Cool.

 

[615dawg]

nah they wont. They'll be in private schools. Youre seeing huge growth in private schools now. They'll continue to grow.

But agree, something needs to be done.

The private schools aren't growing. They are growing revenue, but not students* .

* - I know there are exceptions, namely Hartfield. But JA is worried about future students and Prep added a lower school because they are worried.

And to add to the problem, next year is the peak of graduates in Mississippi, then we start seeing less and less students every year because people stopped making babies around the 2008 financial crisis. The class of 2035 is projected to be 20 percent less than the class of 2025. Bigger problem for colleges and private schools, but it is an issue for all schools.

 

[HuntDawg]

The private schools aren't growing. They are growing revenue, but not students* .

* - I know there are exceptions, namely Hartfield. But JA is worried about future students and Prep added a lower school because they are worried.

And to add to the problem, next year is the peak of graduates in Mississippi, then we start seeing less and less students every year because people stopped making babies around the 2008 financial crisis. The class of 2035 is projected to be 20 percent less than the class of 2025. Bigger problem for colleges and private schools, but it is an issue for all schools.

I wasnt referring to just the jackson area private schools. A higher % of kids are currently choosing private/christian schools and even home schooled % are trending upward.

This will continue unless there is change.

 

[mstateglfr]

I know what you meant and don't disagree with some things. But public roads take you to private schools where cops have jurisdiction and fire depts too and then there are municipal services (sewerage, for instance). I get that kids with traechs and special needs require a different education. But you can get a student loan and go to a college of your choice, you can get TOPS in LA and go to a college of your choice, some of which have different entrance requirements. Let parents choose. I paid a lot in taxes for public schools we didn't use.

Public roads are procured and maintained in compliance with established tax spending laws.
Police and Fire equipment and staffing are procured and maintained in compliance with established tax spending laws.
Municipal services are procured and maintained in compliance with established tax spending laws.

Again- I support open enrollment and my kids open enroll. If open enrollment expands to include funding private education though, then those private schools need to spend tax dollars in compliance with established tax spending laws. And those private schools need to comply with Federal and State education laws- Title9, harassment and bullying, IEPs, etc etc etc.
I have yet to hear of a single good and logical reason for why private education should receive public dollars and not have to comply with Federal and State education laws. I have heard and read many 'well why should they have to report since they are private?' comments, but those are lazy excuses and and at best they are emotion based reasons.

Public education is a societal gain and those who lazily ask- 'well if I dont use it then why should I pay for it?' either dont understand what 'public good' and 'societal gain' mean, or they are just emtionally lashing out in frustration and should be patted on the head and fed a Snickers to calm down.
Reducing public education funding has a direct relationship to a reduction in overall student test results, a reduction in overall student emotional growth and maturity, and a reduction in student outcomes over the span of K12. Like other things I have posted in this thread, that last sentence is not an opinion of mine, it is established reality and rooted in collected and analyzed data.

Its funny that you acknowledge the IEP/SPED issues I mention, but you dont actually fully address it or offer up a solution. You just say 'I get it, but...' and go onto another point. Meanwhile, IEP/SPED funding concerns remain unresolved without even attempting to address the issue.

One of the hardest hit areas when public education funds go to private schools is small rural school districts. For years in my state, even the extreme MAGA Republicans and Christian Nationalist Conservatives in the State Legislature wouldnt support the Far Right Conservative Governor's demand for private school vouchers. They all knew what would happen to the public schools in their districts that perpetually barely hang on due to declining enrollment and declining funding. But they can only hold out for so long. It was 5 years, but inevitable. And this school year, multiple Superintendents have confirmed what the Legislators feared.

 

[dog12]

It seems like it. But it’s still shocking to me that not a single reporter actually reported the actual rule being broken. You’d be surprised at how many people accept something. Dealt with many a bureaucrat that was adamant about what a rule was until it’s pointed out to them. Hell, I’ve dealt with things where I accepted the given practice that had been in place for over a decade without anybody realizing they weren’t applying the rule as written.

his parents seem like they’d care enough and be educated enough that they would actually make them point out the rule that is being broken, but it seems suspicious to me that every body talking about it is citing a rule that he did not break. It would be surprising but not completely shocking if they were applying some informal interpretation of the rule without actually considering whether the actual language of the rule says what they think it does.

In my opinion, it seems like everyone involved in the Tupelo runner's case (both sides) accepted the position that OUTDOOR track is the same sport as INDOOR track, which is simply wrong.

In Virginia, HS indoor track is held in the winter (same as basketball), whereas HS outdoor track is held in the spring (same as baseball). Indoor track has a state championship meet, and outdoor track has a state championship meet. World records are kept for both sports.

Clearly, these are two different sports.

Lastly, MS does not have indoor track as a HS sport, so how exactly was any rule broken? Cite me the rule.

 

[Boom Boom]

My issue is something has to be done, or in 20 years, all of our kids are going to flee the state in droves.

Speaking as probably the person on this board that has been in the most schools in the state of Mississippi, I'm telling you that at least half the schools are primarily concerned with their sports teams. And in the other half, there are large pockets that are concerned primarily with sports.

So tying postseason eligibility to failing schools is not "the dumbest idea ever on this board." Its the only thing that will work. And you also have to realize that if a school is grading an F on these standards, that it is really, really bad and something needs to happen.

There are only 22 failing schools in the state, not all are high schools.

As far as consolidation, we have 150 school districts in a state with 82 counties. We don't have to consolidate schools to get better leadership in these weaker schools. I'd a proponent of hiring 13 superintendents and paying them $250k+ each and each district office is housed at the community college and oversees the current CC district.

One county doesn't need 4 superintendents with assistant superintendents and staff.

Why postseason eligibility? Why not tie sports funding directly? Failing schools have their sports programs cut with the money redirected to education.

 

[Maroon Eagle]

The private schools aren't growing. They are growing revenue, but not students* .

Exactly. MAIS 3A football (old MPSA Single A) is dying.

8-man football has taken over.

This ain’t the 80s.

* - I know there are exceptions, namely Hartfield. But JA is worried about future students and Prep added a lower school because they are worried.

And to add to the problem, next year is the peak of graduates in Mississippi, then we start seeing less and less students every year because people stopped making babies around the 2008 financial crisis. The class of 2035 is projected to be 20 percent less than the class of 2025. Bigger problem for colleges and private schools, but it is an issue for all schools.

Yep.

How many schools are in MAIS now?

80?

I wouldn’t be surprised to see that number drop by 20 in the next 15 years even with the state propping them up with the financial help.

 

[HuntDawg]

Why postseason eligibility? Why not tie sports funding directly? Failing schools have their sports programs cut with the money redirected to education.

Schools don’t fund sports. Sports fund sports. Booster clubs fund sports. The schools do little to nothing for sports now a days.

while we are at it. When the English scores come in too low. Let’s fire the teachers on the spot and split their salaries among other subjects that pass

 

[615dawg]

I wasnt referring to just the jackson area private schools. A higher % of kids are currently choosing private/christian schools and even home schooled % are trending upward.

This will continue unless there is change.

You just have an answer for everything. We're talking about smart kids leaving Mississippi and you reference a small national trend that is not happening in Mississippi.

Let me spell it out for you.

IN MISSISSIPPI, we have a problem. Its not going to be solved by the private schools - 3/4 of the private schools in MS are "If we lose 25 families we will have to close."

 

[615dawg]

Schools don’t fund sports. Sports fund sports. Booster clubs fund sports. The schools do little to nothing for sports now a days.

while we are at it. When the English scores come in too low. Let’s fire the teachers on the spot and split their salaries among other subjects that pass

If an English teacher consistently brings back low scores, then yes, let's fire them on the spot. That is their job. K-12 teaching is the only damn job in the world where you can be horrendously bad and have 100% job security.

You are against consolidation. You are against holding administrators and teachers accountable. You are against pushing the parents to get involved via threatening the only thing they care about. How do we hold failing schools accountable?

 

[mstateglfr]

If an English teacher consistently brings back low scores, then yes, let's fire them on the spot. That is their job. K-12 teaching is the only damn job in the world where you can be horrendously bad and have 100% job security.

You are against consolidation. You are against holding administrators and teachers accountable. You are against pushing the parents to get involved via threatening the only thing they care about. How do we hold failing schools accountable?

Student success and productivity should definitely exist in the teaching profession.

I am just not sure that your suggested approach will yield results you want.
It seems like the result would likely be fewer teachers wanting/willing to work in schools that consistently struggle to produce high test scores, regardless of how talented the teachers may be.

 

[Maroon Eagle]

My thoughts when seeing @HuntDawg challenge @615dawg on education stats…

 

[615dawg]

Student success and productivity should definitely exist in the teaching profession.

I am just not sure that your suggested approach will yield results you want.
It seems like the result would likely be fewer teachers wanting/willing to work in schools that consistently struggle to produce high test scores, regardless of how talented the teachers may be.

Of course I'm not saying "Fire them the first time scores are low." But accountability is needed if teachers aren't showing any improvement.

I know a Math teacher that is one of the smartest teachers you will ever come across. She has a passion for helping at-risk kids, so she teaches the lower math. When the low achievers at her school have to take the Algebra I state test to graduate, they put them in her class.

Too many times the opposite happens. They put the best teachers in AP Calculus and the worst teachers teaching the lower math. As I have opined, leadership and those willing to make decisions that better the school is the main issue, at least in Mississippi.

 

[HuntDawg]

Student success and productivity should definitely exist in the teaching profession.

I am just not sure that your suggested approach will yield results you want.
It seems like the result would likely be fewer teachers wanting/willing to work in schools that consistently struggle to produce high test scores, regardless of how talented the teachers may be.

Facts.

there is a teacher shortage for a reason.

but let’s end athletics for bad scores. Thus losing 10-15 coaches and more like 40-50 coaches at the bigger schools as they want to coach. Then two years later let’s restart athletics and try to hire 30/40 coaches.

see how much sense that makes? But again the answer to a few on this thread is hold athletics accountable for academic failures

 

[HuntDawg]

If an English teacher consistently brings back low scores, then yes, let's fire them on the spot. That is their job. K-12 teaching is the only damn job in the world where you can be horrendously bad and have 100% job security.

You are against consolidation. You are against holding administrators and teachers accountable. You are against pushing the parents to get involved via threatening the only thing they care about. How do we hold failing schools accountable?

I don’t think consolidation will work. But I’m ok with the attempts at trying it, just seen it work out wrong more times than right.

I’m totally for holding administration and teachers accountable. And I’m totally for getting parents involved.

However, with holding athletics to get parents involved is beyond stupid and won’t work. And it will fracture any school system. You’ll lose kids to other schools, you’ll lose coaches, the band, the cheerleaders, all that will be affected. Any school district that does that isn’t going to have a community stand up and say yes that a good idea let’s work hard so we can play sports in 2 years.

imagine having a senior whose a golfer whose worked her entire life for a scholarship. Or a dancer, or a swimmer, or anything like that. He/she is a straight a stucrnt, 25 act. He/she gets told in June that sorry six pack high school won’t have sports next year…. It’s dumb to even phatom

 

[Podgy]

The private schools aren't growing. They are growing revenue, but not students* .

* - I know there are exceptions, namely Hartfield. But JA is worried about future students and Prep added a lower school because they are worried.

And to add to the problem, next year is the peak of graduates in Mississippi, then we start seeing less and less students every year because people stopped making babies around the 2008 financial crisis. The class of 2035 is projected to be 20 percent less than the class of 2025. Bigger problem for colleges and private schools, but it is an issue for all schools.

"because people stopped making babies around the 2008 financial crisis" Nice job government and Wall Street and we bailed them out instead of people.

 

[Podgy]

Public roads are procured and maintained in compliance with established tax spending laws.
Police and Fire equipment and staffing are procured and maintained in compliance with established tax spending laws.
Municipal services are procured and maintained in compliance with established tax spending laws.

Again- I support open enrollment and my kids open enroll. If open enrollment expands to include funding private education though, then those private schools need to spend tax dollars in compliance with established tax spending laws. And those private schools need to comply with Federal and State education laws- Title9, harassment and bullying, IEPs, etc etc etc.
I have yet to hear of a single good and logical reason for why private education should receive public dollars and not have to comply with Federal and State education laws. I have heard and read many 'well why should they have to report since they are private?' comments, but those are lazy excuses and and at best they are emotion based reasons.

Public education is a societal gain and those who lazily ask- 'well if I dont use it then why should I pay for it?' either dont understand what 'public good' and 'societal gain' mean, or they are just emtionally lashing out in frustration and should be patted on the head and fed a Snickers to calm down.
Reducing public education funding has a direct relationship to a reduction in overall student test results, a reduction in overall student emotional growth and maturity, and a reduction in student outcomes over the span of K12. Like other things I have posted in this thread, that last sentence is not an opinion of mine, it is established reality and rooted in collected and analyzed data.

Its funny that you acknowledge the IEP/SPED issues I mention, but you dont actually fully address it or offer up a solution. You just say 'I get it, but...' and go onto another point. Meanwhile, IEP/SPED funding concerns remain unresolved without even attempting to address the issue.

One of the hardest hit areas when public education funds go to private schools is small rural school districts. For years in my state, even the extreme MAGA Republicans and Christian Nationalist Conservatives in the State Legislature wouldnt support the Far Right Conservative Governor's demand for private school vouchers. They all knew what would happen to the public schools in their districts that perpetually barely hang on due to declining enrollment and declining funding. But they can only hold out for so long. It was 5 years, but inevitable. And this school year, multiple Superintendents have confirmed what the Legislators feared.

Whateve. This is way too long. Get to the point. "Public education is a societal gain and those who lazily ask- 'well if I dont use it then why should I pay for it?'" I didn't claim that. I said I paid taxes and didn't use it. And public education sucks in some places and parents should be able to opt out. It's not a societal good everywhere and poor parents, especially poor black parents in cities such as Baltimore should have better options.
It's not laws it's the ******** from the federal bureaucracy that's the issue. Private schools often have 504 and some IEP kids. Some of those kids might be better suited to other schools in the district, maybe online academies, and some may not be able to handle a more rigorous education. We already have some public charter schools that don't offer services all public schools offer.

"Reducing public education funding has a direct relationship to a reduction in overall student test results, a reduction in overall student emotional growth and maturity, and a reduction in student outcomes over the span of K12."
Sounds like b.s. Some schools have schitty results no matter the spending. Give parents the ability to choose the school that's best for their kids and don't let rural parents with kids in schools that have a declining enrollment prevent that. I can take public money and send my kids to the college of their choice. Do that for public schools. Bet they stop the woke horseshite as well. This is even too long. Damn.

 

[Podgy]

Student success and productivity should definitely exist in the teaching profession.

I am just not sure that your suggested approach will yield results you want.
It seems like the result would likely be fewer teachers wanting/willing to work in schools that consistently struggle to produce high test scores, regardless of how talented the teachers may be.

You have that now along with an incredible attrition rate. That should tell you something about the ability of public schools to attract and keep talented people.

 

[Podgy]

Of course I'm not saying "Fire them the first time scores are low." But accountability is needed if teachers aren't showing any improvement.

I know a Math teacher that is one of the smartest teachers you will ever come across. She has a passion for helping at-risk kids, so she teaches the lower math. When the low achievers at her school have to take the Algebra I state test to graduate, they put them in her class.

Too many times the opposite happens. They put the best teachers in AP Calculus and the worst teachers teaching the lower math. As I have opined, leadership and those willing to make decisions that better the school is the main issue, at least in Mississippi.

The last shall be first attitude. Smart people make our society better. Nothing wrong with using the best to teach the best and having lower standards for others. Not everyone needs to learn algebra as thoroughly as others. As I said earlier, we do all sorts of things in life to avoid the bottom quintile. Don't give them our best teachers.

 

[Podgy]

Of course I'm not saying "Fire them the first time scores are low." But accountability is needed if teachers aren't showing any improvement.

Harvard economist Roland Fryer runs the largest social science lab in the world. He's been studying public education for some time. He found out that there's not a single public school in the country where more than 25% of black students were performing at grade level. There are a lot of teachers who need to be fired, I guess. Who will replace them? What do you do about this, not one student tested proficient in 13 schools? What do you do when your idealism meets reality? https://foxbaltimore.com/news/proje...nts-tested-proficient-on-2023-state-math-exam

 

[HuntDawg]

Harvard economist Roland Fryer runs the largest social science lab in the world. He's been studying public education for some time. He found out that there's not a single public school in the country where more than 25% of black students were performing at grade level. There are a lot of teachers who need to be fired, I guess. Who will replace them? What do you do about this, not one student tested proficient in 13 schools? What do you do when your idealism meets reality? https://foxbaltimore.com/news/proje...nts-tested-proficient-on-2023-state-math-exam

lol. The answer is to cancel sports til they pass.

 

[Podgy]

lol. The answer is to cancel sports til they pass.

or just redefine what "passing" and "proficient" mean in Baltimore public schools.

 

[HuntDawg]

or just redefine what "passing" and "proficient" mean in Baltimore public schools.

These guys truly don’t understand how schools are evaluate. And they think the teachers and admins…. And somehow even sports are the issue.

failing schools fail for a lot of reasons. Teachers administration and sports aren’t even in the top 3 reasons as to why this is the case

 

[Podgy]

Replace good public school teachers with good private school teachers, and vice versa, and you'll have the same outcomes in both private and public schools. It's not money. We actually spend more on majority black and Hispanic public schools now than on majority white public schools.

 

[HuntDawg]

Replace good public school teachers with good private school teachers, and vice versa, and you'll have the same outcomes in both private and public schools. It's not money. We actually spend more on majority black and Hispanic public schools now than on majority white public schools.

Ding ding ding ding ding. We have a winner

the best schools remain the best schools even when teachers retire or move or what not. Same for the administration. Same for the sports