Al Borges at football practice today...interesting.
- Thread starter GOPdog
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he's consulting w/Croom and Woody and hopefully giving them some MUCH needed pointers............
think we will ever be able to consistently recruit to the WC system? I don't . I don't think we can consistently get the QB's, WR's and OL to do it. I've also never seen it be successful, year in and year out, in college football. Hell, Walsh couldn't even get it done when he came back to Stanford. BYU under Edwards was the only place to make it work, but they had a lot of spread principals, i.e, the shotgun. The under center 5 and 7 steps drops are impossible to run at State with the type of players we bring in.
Just my opinion.
Just my opinion.
we need to make sure that we either get a QB like Carroll or Garrett (drop-back passer) or go to California to get a QB, which I do think is possible. We have offensive linemen and wide receivers that have the physical ability, I think Croom has to do is find WR that are smart enough to run the routes correctly. Our route running is real sloppy for a WCO team.
As far as Walsh, he did win share of the Pac-10 Championship win he came back and went 10-3 his first year. He also lead Stanford to two bowls in two years during his first tenure. Also, USC with Norm Chow runs the real WCO, and they do quite well with it. Just about every Pac-10 team runs or has run it with some degree of success. Not to mention AU went 13-0 with it and went to a bowl every year under Al Borges, even though they fired him.
I'd love for Croom to make Borges our OC and make McCorvey the top assistant HC where he can't do any damage.
As far as Walsh, he did win share of the Pac-10 Championship win he came back and went 10-3 his first year. He also lead Stanford to two bowls in two years during his first tenure. Also, USC with Norm Chow runs the real WCO, and they do quite well with it. Just about every Pac-10 team runs or has run it with some degree of success. Not to mention AU went 13-0 with it and went to a bowl every year under Al Borges, even though they fired him.
I'd love for Croom to make Borges our OC and make McCorvey the top assistant HC where he can't do any damage.
AnalRetentiveReb said:
</p>I hear it has been on the market for awhile. And interest rates are dropping! <sarcasm>
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Bulldoghair
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Coach34 said:
</p>this is like beating a dead horse and it's frustrating because it's so obvious....you don't go to mcdonalds to order a good steak, just like you dont come to mississippi and consistently run the west coast offense....
if he keeps winning 8 games a year. I'm about 85% on board with Croom now, but this next year will say a lot. He has a unique recruit style, very stubbornlike - which I don't care for too much - but if he gets as much out of our players as he did this past season, he will do fine. I do feel somewhat confident with our quarterback situation right now and that's something I can't ever remember feeling even when Sherrill was here. That's always been our achilles heel, so even after 4 years of terribleness, I am more confident that next year's offense will finally break the Top 100. Baaaah.
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Bulldoghair
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Then why does our state send so many players to the NFL where no one runs the spread? Also, like I said, we don't have to stay in Mississippi. Sure, we need to recruit here and clean up if we can, which is never going to happen for us or Ole Miss unless one of the two of us use the Ron Polk method of recruiting. We need to supplement our Mississippi recruits with guys from Florida, Texas, and California. I'd also like to see us go into Louisiana a little more, and we also need to continue our efforts in Alabama and Tennessee, particularly Memphis.Coach34 said:
Todd4State said:
</p>No, USC with Norm Chow did not run the supposed West Coast Offense. Chow's offense is much simpler:a "For our basic passing game we have a strongside vertical, and we have a middle vertical, and a weakside vertical. We have a couple of horizontal stretches and we have a couple of man routes. We have a few one-man routes. We have a route to attack Cover 2, and we have the four verticals game. That is our basic passing game. There I have told you everything we do and I did it in two minutes. Again…we have one strongside vertical route, one middle vertical route, one middle vertical and one weakside vertical. We have two horizontal stretch routes, a man route, four verticals and a Cover 2 beater. That is all we basically do. We attack everyone we play with these basic plays. Our kids know these plays the second day of practice." Compare that to fifth year senior WR's who still don't understand the complete system at MSU. http://www.trojanfootballanalysis.com/usc_passing_attack_chow.html
"Then why does our state send so many players to the NFL where no one runs the spread?"
We have a state full of athletes. How many QB's do we send to the NFL? Very few. The QB is the key to any system and adapting what he can do. Everybody else can be plugged in to do their job. While we definitely need to recruit other areas, getting the best players out of Mississippi is vital to our program. And my point is that its our QB choices in state are spread types, not wco.
We have a state full of athletes. How many QB's do we send to the NFL? Very few. The QB is the key to any system and adapting what he can do. Everybody else can be plugged in to do their job. While we definitely need to recruit other areas, getting the best players out of Mississippi is vital to our program. And my point is that its our QB choices in state are spread types, not wco.
like Brett Favre, Steve McNair, Jason Campbell, or heck I'll even throw Eli in there even though he is from La.
Todd4State said:
</p>you mentioned 3 QB's...Eli played HS in La...he doesnt count...There are 96 QB's on NFL rosters at one time during a season...
Our state isnt producing very many NFL QB's...the fact that you could only name 3 in the last 15 years says alot
....you've got to have some great players on your team. You love to point to LSU and Florida as proof that the spread would work at MSU, but the fact is, they've got world class athletes, and would have a successful offense no matter what system they ran. From what I saw, LSU didn't look anything like West Virginia. They relied on a power running game and had a consistent enough passing game to have success. It has more to do with the quality of players they have and the coach's ability to get those players to execute than the scheme.
What we have in Mississippi is a plethora of talented runningbacks and usually some big, decent linemen. You're not going to sign the world class athletes that Florida is going to sign, and so your best bet is to be able to run the ball, play great defense, shorten the game, and play field position football. In the modern era of MSU football, when we've had successs, that's how we've done it. That's the formula at MSU, and Jackie knew it, and now hopefully Croom knows it, too.
What we have in Mississippi is a plethora of talented runningbacks and usually some big, decent linemen. You're not going to sign the world class athletes that Florida is going to sign, and so your best bet is to be able to run the ball, play great defense, shorten the game, and play field position football. In the modern era of MSU football, when we've had successs, that's how we've done it. That's the formula at MSU, and Jackie knew it, and now hopefully Croom knows it, too.
"You love to point to LSU and Florida as proof that the spread would work at MSU, but the fact is, they've got world class athletes, and would have a successful offense no matter what system they ran."
They have great talent no doubt. But they take advantage of that talent and isolate their best players in space. This is what makes them good. The spread is about creating match-ups for your best players.
"From what I saw, LSU didn't look anything like West Virginia. They relied on a power running game and had a consistent enough passing game to have success"
Flynn got a little beat up and they adjusted. Just one more advantage of running the spread. WV looks like they do because of Pat White. If he could throw it at all, they would have passed a little more.
"What we have in Mississippi is a plethora of talented runningbacks and usually some big, decent linemen. "
I'm not seeing the problem. Get you a couple of athletic QB's and a couple of WR's to go with that, and you will have a great spread offense.</p>
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"so your best bet is to be able to run the ball, play great defense, shorten the game, and play field position football"
Get in the spread, run the football, and keep playing good defense like we have the last two years. I'm still not seeing the problem?
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They have great talent no doubt. But they take advantage of that talent and isolate their best players in space. This is what makes them good. The spread is about creating match-ups for your best players.
"From what I saw, LSU didn't look anything like West Virginia. They relied on a power running game and had a consistent enough passing game to have success"
Flynn got a little beat up and they adjusted. Just one more advantage of running the spread. WV looks like they do because of Pat White. If he could throw it at all, they would have passed a little more.
"What we have in Mississippi is a plethora of talented runningbacks and usually some big, decent linemen. "
I'm not seeing the problem. Get you a couple of athletic QB's and a couple of WR's to go with that, and you will have a great spread offense.</p>
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"so your best bet is to be able to run the ball, play great defense, shorten the game, and play field position football"
Get in the spread, run the football, and keep playing good defense like we have the last two years. I'm still not seeing the problem?
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....LSU and Florida won national championships, not because of their outstanding players, but because they ran the Spread, which in LSU's case, didn't even look like the spread, or was some sort of "hybrid-spread."
When I think of the Spread, I think of spreading the field out with 5 wides and either running the option (WVU), or being fairly pass happy like Kentucky. If you want to call LSU handing the ball to Hester out of the I the Spread, well, you're confused. I am all for adapting the type of offense you run to your best players, and I think this is where Croom failed in his first couple of years. Conner and Norwood would've made a decent Spread backfield, IF we had the blocking (which we didn't), but Dixon is not a back like that. The WCO is just terminology. You can run out of it, or you can pass out of it. You can have 5 wides and run the option, or you can stack it up and run it up the middle. It's all about execution, which we did not do at times last year. Some of that was due to playcalling, and some of that was due to the players, but I think very little of it had to do with the scheme. Run WVU's or KY's offense with Carroll and Dixon, and you probably get the same results we got, except for more injuries and turnovers.
Think about Pat White and Steve Slaton and how fast those guys are. We don't have anybody on our team that could do that, and we don't have a great passer (like Woodson at UK). The solution is to do what we did last year and win games with a conservative offense.
Of course, I know you're president of the "I'd rather look pretty on offense than win" club.
When I think of the Spread, I think of spreading the field out with 5 wides and either running the option (WVU), or being fairly pass happy like Kentucky. If you want to call LSU handing the ball to Hester out of the I the Spread, well, you're confused. I am all for adapting the type of offense you run to your best players, and I think this is where Croom failed in his first couple of years. Conner and Norwood would've made a decent Spread backfield, IF we had the blocking (which we didn't), but Dixon is not a back like that. The WCO is just terminology. You can run out of it, or you can pass out of it. You can have 5 wides and run the option, or you can stack it up and run it up the middle. It's all about execution, which we did not do at times last year. Some of that was due to playcalling, and some of that was due to the players, but I think very little of it had to do with the scheme. Run WVU's or KY's offense with Carroll and Dixon, and you probably get the same results we got, except for more injuries and turnovers.
Think about Pat White and Steve Slaton and how fast those guys are. We don't have anybody on our team that could do that, and we don't have a great passer (like Woodson at UK). The solution is to do what we did last year and win games with a conservative offense.
Of course, I know you're president of the "I'd rather look pretty on offense than win" club.
when Pat White went down, they couldn't do anything on offense, and this was against Pittsburgh.
Players win games, not schemes.
If we ran the spread, AD is not all of a sudden going to hit the hole hard every time, our WR's are still going to run crappy routes and have inconsistent hands, our o-line is still going to be average, and we stand a good chance of getting Carroll hurt.
Plus, what has you convinced that McCorvey knows how to run the spread? We're not going to just install the spread and McCorvey is all of a sudden going to become Rich Rodriguez, Jr. And Croom will get rid of the WCO before he gets rid of Woody.
Players win games, not schemes.
If we ran the spread, AD is not all of a sudden going to hit the hole hard every time, our WR's are still going to run crappy routes and have inconsistent hands, our o-line is still going to be average, and we stand a good chance of getting Carroll hurt.
Plus, what has you convinced that McCorvey knows how to run the spread? We're not going to just install the spread and McCorvey is all of a sudden going to become Rich Rodriguez, Jr. And Croom will get rid of the WCO before he gets rid of Woody.
DowntownDawg said:
Actually, describing a spread O team as "pass happy" is often inaccurate. My son's HS team runs a spread O and their run/pass percentage last year was 56%/44%. I agree that the design is to "spread the field." But I think the purpose of the spread is to attack the open spaces resulting from the spread not just to enable you to throw the ball. The reason the QB option is often a key part of the O is to give you two running backs (the QB and TB) when you go 4 wide with the WRs. This let's you to attack the middle and/or the corners with the option if the spread has strung out the D to cover the spaces threatened by the 4 wides.
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Needless to say, I love to watch this offense.
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playcalling. UK game is a perfect example. We mix it up in playcalling, particularly early, and had a good bit of success. UK's defense wasn't great, but we certainly played some worse defenses and did a lot worse against them than we did against UK. Look at the last drive against UCF, same thing. We mixed it up, did some things they didn't expect, and we had success. I'm not claiming that we would be a top 50 offense with better playcalling, but we would certainly be in the top 100. Flipping to the spread isn't going to magically solve our problems. We have to become less predictable on offense.
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