Another interesting event at a HS match

[Tom McAndrew]

The text in the tweet pretty much explains what happened. A great, come-from-behind win by Athens, or so it appeared. But the Athens wrestler in the white t-shirt came running out on the mat to celebrate after the pin, and cost his team the win in the district dual competition.

This has generated a lot of discussion online. From a ref's perspective, it was a a no-brainer, and the ref in the video made the correct call. The rules are pretty clear on this, and we are always reminded of such rules before the season and in-season.

There seems to be some growing criticism that the rules should be changed so that a team point is not deducted. I don't have a strong opinion either way on that, though I do wonder how a ref can enforce order by either team if that rule were changed. But the issue isn't what the ref did in this case -- folks just seem to think the rule should be changed. We (refs) often are informed by coaches and fans that such-and-such rule should be changed. We just chuckle, and respond that they're welcome to take it up with the NFHS, but we have to call things as they are in the rule book, not as how some people may want the rules to be written.

 

[truth-and-reason]

Tom, my brother sent me this same post. He pretty much asked me "is this the right call". My response back was very much like what you wrote.

I think what bothers people most with this situation is that it is after the final bout ends and it is celebratory in nature. There's no taunting. There's no overt "in your face" moment. It is 1 teammate going way out on the mat in sheer excitement. (side note for everyone - the ref does not delay in signaling for misconduct due to bench infraction. this is what he is doing with his right arm. Also take note what the coach does immediately when he observes the call by the ref - he is pulling his guys back off the mat so he knows exactly how they are expected to act).

The Ref made the right call. As you point out, fan's don't like it. That's not on the ref. That's on the governing body who write the rules. If you leave it up to ref's to enforce rules at their discretion, then you end up with chaos.

As for the theme of "ref's shouldn't be allowed to take points away". Does that same train of thought apply in the other direction. Should ref's not be allowed to award points to the wrestler A when wrestler B has an illegal hold or technical violation? This is just silly. If you take away the power to deduct points, and you want the behavior to be "penalized" then they will just have the other team awarded a point. In the end, it will all be the same.

The real question to be asked regarding the rules, specific to this situation, "could the match be considered OVER when at the conclusion of "wrestling"" of the last bout? Tom and I both know that according to rule, the MATCH is over when the ref signs the scorebook. I'm not advocating for this rule change, but if someone was inclined to try and modify an existing rule in a small way, this would be a good approach to take.

 

[psykim]

Rule is just crazy wrong. If there was taunting, aggressive comments to refs I can see it. All kids did was jump up and celebrate on their side of mat and not point to or yell at the other team. Rule needs to be modified to allow youthful exuberance-I bet intent was to stop taunting, hateful/aggressive remarks or over the top celebrations-that mock the other team-not a few kids jumping up and down at an awesome victory.

 

[Karl_Havok]

Rule is just crazy wrong. If there was taunting, aggressive comments to refs I can see it. All kids did was jump up and celebrate on their side of mat and not point to or yell at the other team. Rule needs to be modified to allow youthful exuberance-I bet intent was to stop taunting, hateful/aggressive remarks or over the top celebrations-that mock the other team-not a few kids jumping up and down at an awesome victory.

I agree with you. While the written rule might be one thing, celebrating doesn't seem to go against the spirit of the rule here. A victory was taken away from a team because of a celebration. I never understood why the NFL banned celebrations either and now since they've gotten rid of that it has become more fun. I don't blame a ref for following the rules, but the rules seem to need to be updated here.

 

[Steelhead52]

My issue with the whole thing is not that the wrong call was made, but that the opposing coach would accept the win. Just another picture of our society. Team A lost and knows it. Why did the opposing coach accept the win? Just another example of society's declining sportsmanship and win at any cost mentality. What do the kids on Team A learn from this? Years ago, my son who was undefeated and a state qualifier was in a tournament where his first round match was against a girl. For personal reasons,(maybe not a big deal today, but it was 30 yers ago) he refused to wrestle her and was willing to accept the loss. When the girl saw he was going to forfeit, she left the mat and she and her coach talked for a minute and she forfeited instead. That was one of the greatest examples of sportsmanship from both the young lady and her coach that could be demonstrated and the crowd gave her a standing ovation. Afterwards I asked the young lady why she forfeited, and she said, I knew it was the right thing to do and my parents would be proud of me.

 

[BeerLion]

My issue with the whole thing is not that the wrong call was made, but that the opposing coach would accept the win. Just another picture of our society. Team A lost and knows it. Why did the opposing coach accept the win? Just another example of society's declining sportsmanship and win at any cost mentality. What do the kids on Team A learn from this? Years ago, my son who was undefeated and a state qualifier was in a tournament where his first round match was against a girl. For personal reasons,(maybe not a big deal today, but it was 30 yers ago) he refused to wrestle her and was willing to accept the loss. When the girl saw he was going to forfeit, she left the mat and she and her coach talked for a minute and she forfeited instead. That was one of the greatest examples of sportsmanship from both the young lady and her coach that could be demonstrated and the crowd gave her a standing ovation. Afterwards I asked the young lady why she forfeited, and she said, I knew it was the right thing to do and my parents would be proud of me.

I don't understand why you think Wyalusing didn't win. The rules where in place before the match started and both coaches/teams where aware of them. Both teams played by the rules and one team won. You may not like the way it happened. But, by the rules, Wyalusing won. It would be silly for the coach to not accept the win.

In Davis's 125 pound win against OSU, to me it pretty much looks like he was taken down at the end of the match. But by the new rule the ref allowed for longer "reaction time" and ruled no take down. Obviously the OSU coaches were upset and many believe it was a take down. Should Davis not accept the win?

"What do the kids on Team A learn from this?". . . . your actions have consequences.

Your story of the forfeit has nothing to do with rules, it was their choice. I don't really understand how it relates to the point deduction. I am against boys wrestling girls, so I think it was a good move by your son. But I don't understand why she would forfeit instead. And I surely don't understand why her parents would have been proud of her for that. Obviously they knew and she knew she would be wrestling boys. So I fail to see why her quitting is a moment to be proud of, actually I think the opposite.

 

[Tom McAndrew]

Rule is just crazy wrong. If there was taunting, aggressive comments to refs I can see it. All kids did was jump up and celebrate on their side of mat and not point to or yell at the other team. Rule needs to be modified to allow youthful exuberance-I bet intent was to stop taunting, hateful/aggressive remarks or over the top celebrations-that mock the other team-not a few kids jumping up and down at an awesome victory.

I agree with you. While the written rule might be one thing, celebrating doesn't seem to go against the spirit of the rule here. A victory was taken away from a team because of a celebration. I never understood why the NFL banned celebrations either and now since they've gotten rid of that it has become more fun. I don't blame a ref for following the rules, but the rules seem to need to be updated here.

@psykim and @Karl_Havok

I think you're making a huge mistake in your interpretation of what took place, and what was penalized.

Celebration is not outlawed at wrestling matches; far from it. Wrestlers and coaches on winning teams frequently celebrate like crazy on their side of the match throughout a dual, and especially when they win the last match to win the dual.

Neither the NFHS rules, nor the PIAA (Pennsylvania's sports agency for high school sports) adoptions prevent the teammates or the coach from celebrating a win on their side of the gym (each team is set up on one side of the mat).

What is outlawed is anybody coming out on the mat other than the two contestants. Even trainers are reminded before the match that no matter how bad things look, to stay off the mat until they are invited on by the referee. Unless invited on by a referee to deal with an injury or to clean up blood, nobody except the two contestants or the referee are allowed on the mat during a dual.

What was penalized in this situation was the teammate (the one wearing the white t-shirt) of the winning wrestler running far out on the mat. He didn't just step onto the mat -- he ran past the out-of-bounds portion and into the wrestling circle. And as @truth-and-reason (a former ref) pointed out, the coach was holding back his other wrestlers, as he knew the rule.

@psykim -- the rule against going out on the mat has nothing to do with taunting the other team or negative comments against the ref. Those situations are dealt with in other rules, and can cost a team a point, and can even lead to a coach or teammate being removed from the bench.

 

[Tom McAndrew]

My issue with the whole thing is not that the wrong call was made, but that the opposing coach would accept the win. Just another picture of our society. Team A lost and knows it. Why did the opposing coach accept the win? Just another example of society's declining sportsmanship and win at any cost mentality. What do the kids on Team A learn from this?

Huh?

At the end of the competition, the ref signs the book that indicates which team won the dual. At that point, the contest is over, and the results are official. (With the caveat that if a mistake is made on the book, the ref has 30 minutes from the time they signed the book to correct it. I have signed 100s and 100s of books, and I have never once had any reason to correct the book after signing it.)

The results are final. Neither the Wyalusing coach nor the Athens coach gets to determine the final results.

If you get really far into the minutia, if either team felt that a serious procedural mistake was made by the ref in the match, I believe they have 24 hours to appeal the results to the local District (in this case District 4). I know of several such situations where appeals have been made (across many sports; I know of very few such situations in wrestling), but it's exceedingly rare that an appeal causes anything other than the results as they are to stand.

Before the match, the ref is required to read the PIAA sportsmanship statement to the coach and team of both sides. That puts both sides on direct knowledge that the NFHS and PIAA rules will cover the competition.

The Wyalusing coach really doesn't have an option in terms of accepting or rejecting the rules. I guess he could, if he felt strongly about it, have his team not show up at the 2nd round of the District 4 Duals competition (which leads to the PA State Team Championships, which take place this weekend). I think that would send a horrible message to his team.

 

[Karl_Havok]

@psykim and @Karl_Havok

I think you're making a huge mistake in your interpretation of what took place, and what was penalized.

Celebration is not outlawed at wrestling matches; far from it. Wrestlers and coaches on winning teams frequently celebrate like crazy on their side of the match throughout a dual, and especially when they win the last match to win the dual.

Neither the NFHS rules, nor the PIAA (Pennsylvania's sports agency for high school sports) adoptions prevent the teammates or the coach from celebrating a win on their side of the gym (each team is set up on one side of the mat).

What is outlawed is anybody coming out on the mat other than the two contestants. Even trainers are reminded before the match that no matter how bad things look, to stay off the mat until they are invited on by the referee. Unless invited on by a referee to deal with an injury or to clean up blood, nobody except the two contestants or the referee are allowed on the mat during a dual.

What was penalized in this situation was the teammate (the one wearing the white t-shirt) of the winning wrestler running far out on the mat. He didn't just step onto the mat -- he ran past the out-of-bounds portion and into the wrestling circle. And as @truth-and-reason (a former ref) pointed out, the coach was holding back his other wrestlers, as he knew the rule.

@psykim -- the rule against going out on the mat has nothing to do with taunting the other team or negative comments against the ref. Those situations are dealt with in other rules, and can cost a team a point, and can even lead to a coach or teammate being removed from the bench.

I understood what happened and it's obviously against the rules which is why I have no problem with a penalty point, it's that I'm just failing to see why this rule still needs to be in place for this particular situation. I understand that rushing the mat in the middle of a dual is one thing, and wouldn't be allowed. It would be disruptive to the dual. I think a rule change to allow on-mat celebrations after the final bout could be argued that it's really no different from any other sport where after the final whistle the team rushes the field or court to celebrate, which is a pretty standard thing to do.

If there is a good argument to be made against changing the rule I'm probably ok with that as well. In the end I think it's best, as a coach, to make sure that your team is aware of all the rules and that completely unforced errors like this just don't happen because after all, this was a totally self inflicted wound here that cost the team the win.

 

[SleepyLion]

I understood what happened and it's obviously against the rules which is why I have no problem with a penalty point, it's that I'm just failing to see why this rule still needs to be in place for this particular situation. I understand that rushing the mat in the middle of a dual is one thing, and wouldn't be allowed. It would be disruptive to the dual. I think a rule change to allow on-mat celebrations after the final bout could be argued that it's really no different from any other sport where after the final whistle the team rushes the field or court to celebrate, which is a pretty standard thing to do.

If there is a good argument to be made against changing the rule I'm probably ok with that as well. In the end I think it's best, as a coach, to make sure that your team is aware of all the rules and that completely unforced errors like this just don't happen because after all, this was a totally self inflicted wound here that cost the team the win.

Was the bout over? The hand shake of the two wrestlers had not been completed. Does that need to be completed to end the bout?

 

[Mstan85]

Huh?

At the end of the competition, the ref signs the book that indicates which team won the dual. At that point, the contest is over, and the results are official. (With the caveat that if a mistake is made on the book, the ref has 30 minutes from the time they signed the book to correct it. I have signed 100s and 100s of books, and I have never once had any reason to correct the book after signing it.)

The results are final. Neither the Wyalusing coach nor the Athens coach gets to determine the final results.

If you get really far into the minutia, if either team felt that a serious procedural mistake was made by the ref in the match, I believe they have 24 hours to appeal the results to the local District (in this case District 4). I know of several such situations where appeals have been made (across many sports; I know of very few such situations in wrestling), but it's exceedingly rare that an appeal causes anything other than the results as they are to stand.

Before the match, the ref is required to read the PIAA sportsmanship statement to the coach and team of both sides. That puts both sides on direct knowledge that the NFHS and PIAA rules will cover the competition.

The Wyalusing coach really doesn't have an option in terms of accepting or rejecting the rules. I guess he could, if he felt strongly about it, have his team not show up at the 2nd round of the District 4 Duals competition (which leads to the PA State Team Championships, which take place this weekend). I think that would send a horrible message to his team.

I have always had a mantra of "you need to have good procedures (rules) and follow them" (I was a quality auditor for a Fortune 50 company), so it seems that the ref did the job as he should. I don't know about wrestling, but I I do know some sports allow the referee to make a decision within the ‘spirit’ of the game. I think if that were the case for HS wrestling, the decision may have been different.


I also think the Wyalusing coach could have easily gone to the ref and said something along the line of, if you deduct a point from them, deduct one from our team, they won. (then quietly add, if you don't, I guess I'll have to do.... to earn the point deduction)

Just my thoughts.

 

[Tom McAndrew]

Was the bout over? The hand shake of the two wrestlers had not been completed. Does that need to be completed to end the bout?

just to clarify terms, as well as the rules. The match was not over. The handshake is part of the process of a match, as well as the raising of the hand of the winner. (Though due to what took place during Covid, it's no longer a requirement that a ref raise the hand of the winner. They can simply point to the winner, or raised the arm with the colored wristband that corresponds to the color -- green for home; red for away -- of the winning wrestler.) The match doesn't technically end until after each wrestler leaves the mat. The violation by the teammate in the white t-shirt took place long before the handshake had taken place -- the kid that had been pinned was still on his knees on the mat. The ref assesses the penalty before the two wrestlers that had competed shake hands, and the ref raises the hand of the winning wrestler. (If you're looking for the penalty being called, it's the movement of the ref's right arm, where be basically sticks it out straight at his side.)

The dual was also not over. The dual is not over until the referee signs the book.