Buy / Sell: Mississippi's economy is in a 'death spiral'

[Mr. Cook]

I saw article from CNBC: CNBC: the-salary-a-single-person-needs-to-get-by-in-every-us-state.html Looks like Mississippi is the least expensive.

This raised the question in my mind: Will the state ever pull out of this basement? The optimist in says "yes" and the realist in me is dubious.

Interested in the Pack's take today.

 

[Maroon Eagle]

Selling.

Mississippi doesn’t pull out of the basement because we’re comfortable in the basement.

 

[WGWFA]

Consider the source.

 

[ronpolk]

I’m not sure the salary a single person needs to get by is the best measure of a state’s economy. Does anyone really feel the economy of Hawaii or Alaska is better than Florida, Georgia or Texas (and numerous other states).

But to answer the question, I doubt it. It would take some transformational industry coming into the state. And truth be told, the people with money that control the state they are pretty happy with the state as is.

 

[horshack.sixpack]

I saw article from CNBC: CNBC: the-salary-a-single-person-needs-to-get-by-in-every-us-state.html Looks like Mississippi is the least expensive.

This raised the question in my mind: Will the state ever pull out of this basement? The optimist in says "yes" and the realist in me is dubious.

Interested in the Pack's take today.

Cup half full. If you can find a job that pays well and allows you to live in MS, you can maybe have nice things.

 

[TaleofTwoDogs]

I moved to the Sip last year and thought that an added bonus of the move would be a lower cost of living than DFW. Fooled me, because I haven't noticed any difference and somethings are actually higher. The only cost that is less is real estate taxes. The truth is Mississippi is not that cheap and you have less choices to where you spend your money.

 

[GloryDawg]

When you get stationed in the Military your CONUS money is based on where you live. Those guys in Alaska make a lot of additional money to be station there.

No matter where you live until wages catches up to inflation the cost for food, utilities and gas is just way too high and making it hard to live. I read 60% of Americans are living from paycheck to paycheck and using credit cards many times just to get to the next paycheck.

 

[jethreauxdawg]

I moved to the Sip last year and thought that an added bonus of the move would be a lower cost of living than DFW. Fooled me, because I haven't noticed any difference and somethings are actually higher. The only cost that is less is real estate taxes. The truth is Mississippi is not that cheap and you have less choices to where you spend your money.

Did you buy the same type house or did you buy a house that costs the same when you got here?

 

[Perd Hapley]

Does anyone really feel the economy of Hawaii or Alaska is better than Florida, Georgia or Texas (and numerous other states).

If your measure of the economy of a state is per capita GDP, Alaska actually is higher than all 3 of those states. Hawaii is higher than Florida, about the same as Georgia, and less than Texas.

https://ipsr.ku.edu/ksdata/ksah/business/percapGDP.pdf

 

[OG Goat Holder]

Plenty of places to work and do OK in the Sip, but until an urban or semi-urban area pulls itself together, it's unlikely to ever pull itself up off the bottom, or at least be competitive. That area is pretty much Jackson for a true urban zone, or the Golden Triangle to be that smaller up-and-coming place. Hattiesburg is doing alright too, so I'll include them.

We all know Jackson isn't changing anytime soon, so that's out. I just hope that the expansion of the internet and telework will allow people to have a little land and live out in the rural counties, and keep the state as a whole viable. Then the university towns have to just hold on.

It's going to have to be some serious out-of-state thinking and investment to ever change Jackson. If that comes from real investors, then it could prosper. If it's from Kush plan radicals, then it will swirl the toilet even more.

 

[615dawg]

Goat Holder is right.

Mississippi has to have a vibrant city. The under 35 crowd demands it. Until Jackson gets its crap together, we are going to lose our best and brightest. My kids and their friends cannot wait to get out of Mississippi. The sooner our state leaders see this and stop being afraid of what the national media will say, the better.

Jackson can be fixed, but it's going to take its leaders in handcuffs, a state takeover of most everything, and then the hard stuff begins - you have to get buy in from investors and people.

 

[Leeshouldveflanked]

It depends on where you live in Mississippi. Union County is a good place to live, good public schools, close to Oxford-Tupelo, etc.

 

[11thEagleFan]

Lord I hope not.* I live out of state and when I come home to MS, I see that a lot of things are noticeably cheaper (I live in CO). The house that I live in now, I could sell and move back home and buy the same house for half the price or less. The costs are such that it leaves me with hope to retire relatively young and move back.

 

[johnson86-1]

Aggregating it by state doesn't make a ton of sense when housing dominates the budget of most people. It's really more about MSAs.

As far as pulling itself out of the basement, we have several decent places to live between "south Memphis", Tupelo, Hattiesburg, the Coast, and I guess Madison. If we had one vibrant city to keep people from leaving the state, you'd probably see a lot more people move to those places after getting tired of a more urban setting. It's a little bit harder to come from Charlotte, Denver, Atlanta, DFW, Houston, etc. back to small time Mississippi because that usually involves losing the benefit of a lot of your professional network.

Not having a vibrant city is a killer in today's economy. Really need to hope that the Coast takes off because I think the coast and South Memphis are the only places with a hcance, and I think South Memphis will always be a quasi bedroom community unless Memphis gets so bad that lots of business starts decamping to North Mississippi. Not sure that would turn any of that into a desirable city though; I think it'd still mostly feel like suburbs.

 

[thatsbaseball]

Mississippi's electorate (white and black) just flat does an awful job of electing good leaders and will likely continue to do so for the foreseeable future. So no .

 

[OG Goat Holder]

It depends on where you live in Mississippi. Union County is a good place to live, good public schools, close to Oxford-Tupelo, etc.

You're missing the point. This is the type of small time thinking that prevents the push forward.

Union County is fine. It's all the things you say. But it's nothing special. If you enjoy small-town living, you can be happy just about everywhere. I wish I did, I truly do. I wish I was part of the crowd that can just be fine living day to day like that. But those areas aren't going to push the needle. If you are still of the belief that 'schools' are what grow your area - well, you might be in a small town.

And truth be known, even GT and Hattiesburg (and I'll include Oxford too) aren't some bastion of activity. They are doing very well, growing and have youthful ambition, thus some innovation and some cool things. But none of them are boom towns.

It's Jackson or bust, if you want true state growth. And we all have a stake in it, even the ones in the small towns. Maybe not you, living way up in Union County. Your 'city' is probably more Memphis. But it's still important for Mississippi to remain viable, since you reside in it.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

It's really more about MSAs.

As far as pulling itself out of the basement, we have several decent places to live between "south Memphis", Tupelo, Hattiesburg, the Coast, and I guess Madison. If we had one vibrant city to keep people from leaving the state, you'd probably see a lot more people move to those places after getting tired of a more urban setting. It's a little bit harder to come from Charlotte, Denver, Atlanta, DFW, Houston, etc. back to small time Mississippi because that usually involves losing the benefit of a lot of your professional network.

Not having a vibrant city is a killer in today's economy.

Correct. The huge growth in TN, GA and NC is all about Nashville, Chattanooga, Knoxville, Atlanta Metro, Charlotte, Raleigh-Durham. The rest just spins off of that.

Really need to hope that the Coast takes off because I think the coast and South Memphis are the only places with a hcance, and I think South Memphis will always be a quasi bedroom community unless Memphis gets so bad that lots of business starts decamping to North Mississippi. Not sure that would turn any of that into a desirable city though; I think it'd still mostly feel like suburbs.

I hate to be negative, but you nail Memphis, and the Coast is....the Coast. It's on the water, and we have proof of major hurricanes every 35 years. I think the most we can hope for there is just a cool area (which it is).

It's Jackson, man. It has to be. If we want to toss it aside, we pay the price. Nothing changes.

 

[IBleedMaroonDawg]

I moved to the Sip last year and thought that an added bonus of the move would be a lower cost of living than DFW. Fooled me, because I haven't noticed any difference and somethings are actually higher. The only cost that is less is real estate taxes. The truth is Mississippi is not that cheap and you have less choices to where you spend your money.

I think a lot of that has to do with what part of Mississippi you are visiting. Unless it's really changed in the small towns, it wasn't that bad.

 

[57stratdawg]

I think it’s dead. I read MS and NY lost the largest % of population during 2020 (+/-3%). I would be interested to know where those Mississippi residents moved. I think it’s going to be a tough sell to recruit them back from GA, FL & TX. If they moved to Memphis & Birmingham, I’d be a little less concerned.

As a society, we just want to live in population centers now. I think North MS, the Gulf Coast & Jackson will be able to keep their head above water. You gotta be worried about the rest.

Let me also add that AI will revolutionize farming. Printing press level revolutionize. I don’t know if that will be good or bad.

 

[LordMcBuckethead]

I saw article from CNBC: CNBC: the-salary-a-single-person-needs-to-get-by-in-every-us-state.html Looks like Mississippi is the least expensive.

This raised the question in my mind: Will the state ever pull out of this basement? The optimist in says "yes" and the realist in me is dubious.

Interested in the Pack's take today.

Mississippi is the least expensive place to live overall. Which is awesome. But.... our pay is also the lowest in the country or damn near it.

I will say this, but I know I am going to be blasted on here. Our State's leadership, from an overall perspective is crap, and has been crap since Republicans have taken over pretty much 100%. There is no compromise. There is no discussion on matters. There is just whatever one side wants to do.

Not that their positions are terrible (other than anti-woke BS, abortion, etc). There is just zero discussion and zero compromise. So we never move forward. We will never gain.

The State of Mississippi, in this lockdown political climate, will never climb out of the basement. Cause why would we? We don't demand other views, new ideas, new avenues, or a progressive mindset that is absolutely required to change the status quo. Conservative by nature is against pretty much all meaningful change.

Living in Mississippi can be great though. It just doesn't do anything to even try to get out of the basement on healthcare, education, economic opportunity, etc.

 

[LordMcBuckethead]

I moved to the Sip last year and thought that an added bonus of the move would be a lower cost of living than DFW. Fooled me, because I haven't noticed any difference and somethings are actually higher. The only cost that is less is real estate taxes. The truth is Mississippi is not that cheap and you have less choices to where you spend your money.

That is true, Mississippi isn't cheap. Take a few of those states out of the equation and we are on par with almost all the other states. The difference is.... our income for a family in Mississippi is around 42k. That is the number to look at. It is actually below the single person standard of living. That is why we are poor.

 

[LordMcBuckethead]

Goat Holder is right.

Mississippi has to have a vibrant city. The under 35 crowd demands it. Until Jackson gets its crap together, we are going to lose our best and brightest. My kids and their friends cannot wait to get out of Mississippi. The sooner our state leaders see this and stop being afraid of what the national media will say, the better.

Jackson can be fixed, but it's going to take its leaders in handcuffs, a state takeover of most everything, and then the hard stuff begins - you have to get buy in from investors and people.

Agreed. The leaders there have had a go at it for a while. And they suck.

 

[LordMcBuckethead]

It depends on where you live in Mississippi. Union County is a good place to live, good public schools, close to Oxford-Tupelo, etc.

Union county is fantastic. They are even planning on upgrading every school campus there after the Sept 19th vote.

 

[BoDawg.sixpack]

The problem is that most of the country can't stop spending on every little thing that Corporate America flashes in front of their eyes. The problem is personal discipline, budgeting ignorance and a lack of willingness to share expenses with other people. I personally believe if you don't have any mental or physical handicaps and you can't make it in this economy you're in danger of falling into the deadbeat category.

 

[thekimmer]

I saw article from CNBC: CNBC: the-salary-a-single-person-needs-to-get-by-in-every-us-state.html Looks like Mississippi is the least expensive.

This raised the question in my mind: Will the state ever pull out of this basement? The optimist in says "yes" and the realist in me is dubious.

Interested in the Pack's take today.

Can't spiral down until it leaves the ground. I wanted badly to stay in MS 37 years ago after finishing my masters but the jobs were not there. Took a position three states over with a plan to return in a few years. One thing led to another, the years passed, marriage, kids. Now looking at retirement and a return to my home state just isn't really in the cards.

 

[Maroon Eagle]

The problem is that most of the country can't stop spending on every little thing that Corporate America flashes in front of their eyes. The problem is personal discipline, budgeting ignorance and a lack of willingness to share expenses with other people. I personally believe if you don't have any mental or physical handicaps and you can't make it in this economy you're in danger of falling into the deadbeat category.

That’s all well & good and I agree with a lot of what you write but I’m wondering how it applies to Cook’s question.

 

[Maroon13]

Desoto county real estate is at snails pace now. Home inventory is low because nobody wants to sale because they don't want to lose their interest rate. New house construction and sales are slow (for the area) again interest rates.

With all that said, Olive Branch nor Southaven have any chance of becoming a bigger city. People were already moving out of Olive branch, Horn Lake and southaven for the se corner of the county and Hernando.

On the topic in general...
The high interest rates change every thing. Young couples can't afford houses and my guess is you will see multi generation household become more common for a decade or more. Or they will build small houses (1500 sq Ft) in very rural places like Union county and commute to tupelo or Memphis. I knew a man that commuted from Potts camp to Memphis in the 90s. Back to that.

 

[57stratdawg]

Can we stop pretending like this is only a “Jackson” problem? I see something like 64 of MS’ 82 counties shrinking in population from 2010 to 2020. That is way bigger than potholes in Jackson. There were only 6 counties with double digit growth - and one of them was Hinds.

Below is CNBC’s state ranking for Business. MS is #48 overall including 45th in “workforce”, 48th in infrastructure, 50th in business friendliness & 41st in access to capital. These monumental headwinds are not the result of Jackson’s City Council.

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/07/11/americas-top-states-for-business-2023-the-full-rankings.html

 

[Beretta.sixpack]

I personally love MS....I have lived in Madison, city of jackson, starkville, and now Oxford....I cover 69 of the 82 counties for corporate america....I see all the doom and gloom and all the prospering cities....we have a chance and we (as a state) are moving as quickly as possible to get there, but any government (fed/state/city) all move slow....

we need industry to get here, and bring jobs, and we are slowly doing that....the south in general is taking away from a lot of tax happy states....all the tax friendly states are now competing with each other and that is the new arms race...

however, if i was straight out of college and in my 20s again, I would move out of state, but it would not be to a big city....

 

[BoDawg.sixpack]

That’s all well & good and I agree with a lot of what you write but I’m wondering how it applies to Cook’s question.

The economy of MS is what it always has been in terms of GDP per capita. But the cost of living is also low, and consequently so is the homeless rate. So of course it's not in a death spiral because it's already at rock bottom. But now you have additional sources of income that were not available 10 years ago..I'm referring to the gig economy and the work form home movement. You can app test remotely, teach remotely, code from home, you can take customer service calls at home now for a variety of companies, and develop websites. There's a growing list of things people will pay you to do in your own home or apt.

So the national economy, and some parts of the global economy has now come to the applicant instead of the applicant going to the company. The local employment scene is less important that it used to be. So yes, the economy in MS has its challenges but if you apply yourself you can turn the low cost of living the state has to offer into a bonus for your budget.

 

[Rupert Jenkins]

The premise was that the cost of living in Mississippi is the lowest of all states. Is that correct. Thats what I understood you to be saying. Why would we not like that ? Cost of living relative to average income is probably very similar across the board. Sure you make more in NYC but try paying rent. Same in Cali etc etc. I use to work with a lot of guys that moved from NY to Florida complaining about the pay. Salary goes up COL goes up

 

[BoDawg.sixpack]

The premise was that the cost of living in Mississippi is the lowest of all states. Is that correct. Thats what I understood you to be saying. Why would we not like that ? Cost of living relative to average income is probably very similar across the board. Sure you make more in NYC but try paying rent. Same in Cali etc etc. I use to work with a lot of guys that moved from NY to Florida complaining about the pay. Salary goes up COL goes up

Yes, the overall cost of living is the lowest. See this site for more info.

 

[HWY51dog]

All I know is this, I sell homes to people all the time that sell in other places like California, Vegas, Florida, and Northern states. They take the proceeds from the house sell and pay cash here in MS and retire.

 

[Walkthedawg]

I saw article from CNBC: CNBC: the-salary-a-single-person-needs-to-get-by-in-every-us-state.html Looks like Mississippi is the least expensive.

This raised the question in my mind: Will the state ever pull out of this basement? The optimist in says "yes" and the realist in me is dubious.

Interested in the Pack's take today.

Being one of the least expensive isn’t really a problem. I live in a house right now that I would have to be absolutely loaded to live in while in coastal California and parts of the northern Atlantic coast.

People can own land here without having to earn top salaries to do so.

It’s nothing like like being expensive to live but wages are depressed. That would be an immediate problem.

And there are spots that’s growing in the State. It’s not all bad. I expect Desoto and Marshall county to start eventually pulling stuff out of Memphis besides residents.

 

[ronpolk]

If your measure of the economy of a state is per capita GDP, Alaska actually is higher than all 3 of those states. Hawaii is higher than Florida, about the same as Georgia, and less than Texas.

https://ipsr.ku.edu/ksdata/ksah/business/percapGDP.pdf

I wouldn’t measure the success of an economy by per capita GDP.

 

[Walkthedawg]

Mississippi is the least expensive place to live overall. Which is awesome. But.... our pay is also the lowest in the country or damn near it.

I will say this, but I know I am going to be blasted on here. Our State's leadership, from an overall perspective is crap, and has been crap since Republicans have taken over pretty much 100%. There is no compromise. There is no discussion on matters. There is just whatever one side wants to do.

Not that their positions are terrible (other than anti-woke BS, abortion, etc). There is just zero discussion and zero compromise. So we never move forward. We will never gain.

The State of Mississippi, in this lockdown political climate, will never climb out of the basement. Cause why would we? We don't demand other views, new ideas, new avenues, or a progressive mindset that is absolutely required to change the status quo. Conservative by nature is against pretty much all meaningful change.

Well that’s just not true. We languished at the absolute bottom in education for decades and decades.

Now back in 2021 Mississippi ranked 35th in the Nation for K-12 Achievement in Quality Counts National Report. That was climbing from 50th in 2013, according to the latest Quality Counts report published in Education Week.

Even the New York Times has been glowing about the education turnaround in MS. They titled an article “Mississippi is Offering Lessons to America on Education.” Among it it said:

“In the National Assessment of Educational Progress, a series of nationwide tests better known as NAEP, Mississippi has moved from near the bottom to the middle for most of the exams — and near the top when adjusted for demographics. Among just children in poverty, Mississippi fourth graders now are tied for best performers in the nation in NAEP reading tests and rank second in math.”

I think this is pretty exceptional myself.

 

[Leeshouldveflanked]

Mississippi's electorate (white and black) just flat does an awful job of electing good leaders and will likely continue to do so for the foreseeable future. So no .

Like having to expand Bennie Thompson’s district because of people leaving it.

 

[Boom Boom]

I saw article from CNBC: CNBC: the-salary-a-single-person-needs-to-get-by-in-every-us-state.html Looks like Mississippi is the least expensive.

This raised the question in my mind: Will the state ever pull out of this basement? The optimist in says "yes" and the realist in me is dubious.

Interested in the Pack's take today.

It's no where near a death spiral. That won't happen unless all that fed money we mooch off of dries up.

Will we ever pull out of the basement? No. We have the same policies as adjoining states that are already better off/better competitors plus they have more to offer both business and residents. There's no path to success there. If we could learn to cut against the grain of our neighbors, maybe we could grow. But there's no profit there for lobbyists and pols, so count it out.

 

[Podgy]

Goat Holder is right.

Mississippi has to have a vibrant city. The under 35 crowd demands it. Until Jackson gets its crap together, we are going to lose our best and brightest. My kids and their friends cannot wait to get out of Mississippi. The sooner our state leaders see this and stop being afraid of what the national media will say, the better.

Jackson can be fixed, but it's going to take its leaders in handcuffs, a state takeover of most everything, and then the hard stuff begins - you have to get buy in from investors and people.

The under 35 crowd has money to spend, they enjoy spending it on experiences and they're not really taken with southern Republican party ideas and slogans (I'm really not trying to make this political). It's good to appeal to them because they spend money and they like some really cool things. They also like diversity theoretically rather than in actuality unless you look different and think the way they do. But, yeah, appeal to them. You get cool things in your city and you get economic vibrance. Do it because it's wise economic policy. Look at New Orleans. The places young people with money go are pretty cool. And, although Orleans Parish is over 60% non-white, a lot of local scenes look like a gathering in Vermont. Crime sucks and so do schools. Deal with that and that's a cool city.

 

[Trojanbulldog19]

Goat Holder is right.

Mississippi has to have a vibrant city. The under 35 crowd demands it. Until Jackson gets its crap together, we are going to lose our best and brightest. My kids and their friends cannot wait to get out of Mississippi. The sooner our state leaders see this and stop being afraid of what the national media will say, the better.

Jackson can be fixed, but it's going to take its leaders in handcuffs, a state takeover of most everything, and then the hard stuff begins - you have to get buy in from investors and people.

The coastal area is better and Memphis metro is better for trying to keep people in state than Jackson. Need higher paying jobs more stem, need to try to attract those businesses moving to Austin area or the Texas triangle. But Jackson would have to be taken over and major changes to airport and of course crime