Cohen vs. O'Connor

[SanfordRJones]

For those of you who want Cohen, why do you like him more than O'Connor? Looking at the two side-by-side, I don't think there's any comparison.

Cohen:
1. Took over a program from a well-liked, longtime coach with a winning record (Keith Madison, 1979-2003, 735-638-5, .535). Kentucky's previous two regional appearances had been in '93 and '88.
2. Led his team to one regional appearance in four years, hosting it that year.
3. Career record is 131-93-1 through 2007 (.582).
4. Career SEC record is 47-71-1 (.398).
5. UK's '08 record is 41-15, 16-14. It is likely that UK will be in a regional this year.
6. 42 years old.
7. Area of strength is hitting.
8. Played at MSU.

O'Connor:
1. Took over a program from a well-liked, longtime coach with a losing record (Dennis Womack, 1981-2003, 594-605-7, .495). Virginia's previous two regional appearances had been in '96 and '85.
2. Led his team to a regional appearance each year he was the coach, hosting in three of the four years.
3. Career record is 130-51 through 2007 (.725).
4. Career ACC record is 53-29 (.646) through 2007.
5. UVA's '08 record is 37-19, 15-15. It is likely that UVA will be in a regional for the fifth straight year.
6. 37 years old.
7. Area of strength is pitching.
8. Played at Creighton.

So, to summarize, both took over weak programs in major baseball conferences and turned them around. O'Connor has had much more success getting to the post season and has a much better overall and conference record. Thus, one could reasonably argue that O'Connor took over a worse program and did a better job with the turnaround. And he's five years younger. If there are two similar candidates where one is known as a hitting expert and the other is a pitching expert, my money is on the pitching expert. The only argument working in Cohen's favor is his alma mater.

 

[SanfordRJones]

For those of you who want Cohen, why do you like him more than O'Connor? Looking at the two side-by-side, I don't think there's any comparison.

Cohen:
1. Took over a program from a well-liked, longtime coach with a winning record (Keith Madison, 1979-2003, 735-638-5, .535). Kentucky's previous two regional appearances had been in '93 and '88.
2. Led his team to one regional appearance in four years, hosting it that year.
3. Career record is 131-93-1 through 2007 (.582).
4. Career SEC record is 47-71-1 (.398).
5. UK's '08 record is 41-15, 16-14. It is likely that UK will be in a regional this year.
6. 42 years old.
7. Area of strength is hitting.
8. Played at MSU.

O'Connor:
1. Took over a program from a well-liked, longtime coach with a losing record (Dennis Womack, 1981-2003, 594-605-7, .495). Virginia's previous two regional appearances had been in '96 and '85.
2. Led his team to a regional appearance each year he was the coach, hosting in three of the four years.
3. Career record is 130-51 through 2007 (.725).
4. Career ACC record is 53-29 (.646) through 2007.
5. UVA's '08 record is 37-19, 15-15. It is likely that UVA will be in a regional for the fifth straight year.
6. 37 years old.
7. Area of strength is pitching.
8. Played at Creighton.

So, to summarize, both took over weak programs in major baseball conferences and turned them around. O'Connor has had much more success getting to the post season and has a much better overall and conference record. Thus, one could reasonably argue that O'Connor took over a worse program and did a better job with the turnaround. And he's five years younger. If there are two similar candidates where one is known as a hitting expert and the other is a pitching expert, my money is on the pitching expert. The only argument working in Cohen's favor is his alma mater.

 

[skydawg1]

Well, let's not discount the fact that Kentucky's pitching has been outstanding this year, too. UK led the SEC in both hitting and pitching at the end of the regular season. I'd bet they still do.

Virginia is middle of the pack in both categories.

http://www.secsports.com/new/sports/bbc/08stats/lgsumm.htm

http://www.theacc.com/sports/m-basebl/stats/2007-2008/lgsumm.html

 

[patdog]

A couple of things I would add in favor of Cohen

1. SEC > ACC. But that's debatable.

2. Although Madison had a better overall record than the old UVA coach, in the latter years, UK had fallen further than UVA had. In their last 2 years, UVA was 50-63 (17-31 ACC), while UK was 39-70 (13-47 SEC).

 

[cowbell9]

Also, has anyone heard that JC signed an extension?

 

[patdog]

they'll just do like they did this year and not go to games. Look for us to average about 2,000 per SEC game again next year if he's hired. Actually, they might revolt.

And WTF is up with throwing initials around? Did this suddenly become an Alabama message board? But no, I haven't heard that Cohen signed an extension. It would surprise me if he did, because I think he wants to at least be a candidate for the MSU job.

 

[SanfordRJones]

I'd say #1 is highly debatable. I'd say they're pretty equal right now. Point #2 shows that both situations were pretty equal. However, O'Connor has been a lot more successful with his record and ability to get to the post-season.

 

[tossedoff]

Jesus Christ just signed an extension?

 

[Bulldog from Birth]

That is Tommy Raffo is the hire, he'll have to prove he can win before I set foot in DNF again. We do NOT need the status quo right now. I'm sick of the status quo, and one lucky run to Omaha after another losing SEC season, didn't convinve me otherwise. If Raffo's the guy, the next game I attend at DNF will be the next postseason game we host there. Until I see that, I won't be convinced Tommy Raffo can make that happen.

BFB

 

[futaba.79]

and some of them are the type that can influence a search. When the coach is named we'll find out who is calling the shots in the athletic dept. </p>

</p>

 

[patdog]

#1 - very debatable this year. The 2 conferences are about equal and if anything the ACC is probably a little better. But most years, the SEC is a little better than the ACC.

#2 - how does .442 overall and .354 in the ACC for UVA compared to .358 overall and .217 for in the SEC mean the two are about equal? I mean, sure they both sucked. But UK sucked a good bit worse than UVA did. To put it in perspective, over a 30 game conference season that would translate to 11-19 for UVA and 7-23 for UK. That's a pretty big difference.

Like I said earlier, you make a very good case for O'Connor. Good enough to say that he'd definitely be the better candidate if not for Cohen playing at MSU. He's still probably a better candidate, but Cohen would probably be accepted easier by our fanbase.

 

[Mjoelner]

to where we want to be but I'd put Raffo on a choke-chain if he was hired. He'd have to produce next year. After all, he's familiar with the program and these are his players.

 

[MaxwellSmart]

I said earlier that I put O'Connor in my top 4. Not 4th pick but top 4 to interview. The only thing that helps Cohen's case is he would be less likely to leave for more money if he became the most wanted coach in baseball.

 

[SanfordRJones]

I don't have the time right now to go back and check, but I'm pretty sure the ACC and SEC (if you include Miami in the ACC's numbers before it actually joined) have had teams in the CWS at about the same rate during the 2000's. I know there was one year when half the field was from the ACC, and another year when about half the field was from the SEC. I would say that these two conferences are, top to bottom, the strongest two in the nation, and everyone else is a step or two below them.

I guess I should have just said they both sucked. If it's my team, I'm going to be equally pissed about a .354 or .442 overall record, though.

Does anyone know if O'Connor is a yeller? If not, he might be more acceptable to the fanbase since he would be nicer to our boys.

 

[Todd4State]

For those of you who want Cohen, why do you like him more than O'Connor? Looking at the two side-by-side, I don't think there's any comparison.

Cohen's teams play. If you watched last night, they bascially outhustled Bama in Hoover to win the game. He is aggressive, and his teams play the way you're supposed to play the game. He has good baseball intuition- he pitched a relief pitcher last night and the guy gave them a CG. He is also familiar with the teams in the SEC. And yes, being familiar with our program is a good thing in this case. I don't think that should be a requirement, but knowing the program your going to is going to be helpful.

I do agree that they are similar, but to me his MSU and SEC ties make him the better choice because it would make the transition easier for him and the team. So, whether you like it or not, there is some validity in that.

 

[patdog]

Does anyone know if O'Connor is a yeller? If not, he might be more acceptable to the fanbase since he would be nicer to our boys.

Good point. Wouldn't want anyone to upset our boys by yelling at them. After all, they're not going out there and trying to lose (I've actually heard Polk say that on his postgame show).</p>

 

[MaxwellSmart]

because it would make the transition easier for him and the team.

So Cohen would keep the continuity in tact?

<S>

 

[Todd4State]

until we actually get a legit coach and Raffo is completely out of the picture. I will say that. I think hiring Raffo would be the worst move we could make since bringing back Polk.

I think he would last three seasons and then we would be back arguing over whether we want Casey, Cohen, or O'Conner.

 

[TR.sixpack]

Doesn't attendance really depend upon how the team is doing, and not the coach? While Raffo is not in my wish list, I don't know if we can say definitively he will be a failure. It's just a gamble given his resume.

 

[rebelrouseri]

Pretty damn even over time though. ACC's fsu, mia, and unc give them the overall nod so far this year. </p>

 

[saltybulldog]

who would rather us NOT hire (out of all the candidates)? I am tired of heard the MSU crowd split. If you had to rank the coaches you would not want to compete against what would it be?

Lets have it...

 

[SanfordRJones]

I don't buy the argument that "knowing the SEC" is all that important. In Casey's case, it might have some validity because he's lived and worked on the west coast his whole life. But for someone to come to an SEC school from the ACC, it's not an issue. There are currently three SEC head coaches who came from an ACC school before their current job: Ray Tanner, Kevin O'Sullivan, and Tim Corbin. While the jury is still out on O'Sullivan, there's no denying that the other two have been extremely successful.

Whether you want a coach with MSU ties is a personal choice. Personally, I just want the best coach. And the more I think about it, the more I think I'd much rather have O'Connor over all the candidates, possibly even including Casey.

 

[rebelrouseri]

1. McDonnell both for what he has done and the fact that I want him back if Bianco leaves or gets hit by a bus;
2. Corbin;
3. Any number of coaches including O'Connor and the guy at FSU, UNC, etc.;
4. Cohen because I think he is slightly below tier 3.

 

[Todd4State]

to know who your opponents are and their tendancies. It's about being familiar. No, it's not necessarily the most important thing in the world, but it is very helpful in baseball.

I'm just saying that if you have two coaches with basically identical resume's, and one has been coaching in the same conference that my team is in and has been a part of the school that is trying to hire him, that would probably put that coach over the top.</p>

 

[SanfordRJones]

Sure it's helpful, but there's no way it should be a significant determining factor because it's just not that important, especially after the first year. By my count, about half the current coaches in the league hadn't had any experience with the SEC (as a player or a coach) before taking their respective jobs. All of them have been successful.

As for identical resumes, they're not. O'Connor has been to a regional 4 times in 4 years, while Cohen has been once in the same time period. O'Connor's winning percentage is 150 points higher, and his in-conference record is 250 points higher. Those are huge differences.

Edit for grammar.

 

[Todd4State]

is an overall SEC Championship in his second year, now that I looked back at it.
</p>
Also, are you saying that UK is not going to a Regional this year? Because this is Cohen's fourth season there. I don't think it's fair to say he didn't make a regional when he was the hitting coach for the Florida Gators. His team may not have made a Regional last year, but they were certainly on the bubble at the very least, and Cohen's first team was absolute crap that he actually made respectable. That team had no business winning 20 games overall. Also, Cohen won a couple of titles at Northwestern State, but no one seems to remember that.

I may be an SEC homer, but I'd like to think that the SEC is tougher to win than the ACC. Both are great conferences, so winning a Championship at either one- especially at Virginia or Kentucky is an accomplishment.

I do think that both would be great choices, but little things- not that they are necessarily the most important-are what make the difference.

 

[SanfordRJones]

I didn't bother with conference championships. O'Connor has none, but he has finished 2nd twice, I think, and he won a conference tournament. I can't remember where Cohen has finished except for the year they were the champs. So, yes, I did leave out yearly conference results, but I think it would be a wash since both have a championship (overall for Cohen and tourney for O'Connor).

This is Cohen's 5th year. Same with O'Connor. They should both be in a regional this year. That would make five out of five for O'Connor and two out of five for Cohen. I didn't include Norhwestern State because it was apples to oranges in this comparison, and I don't think that's as important as what he's done in a major conference.

I also think Cohen would be a solid choice, but I get the impression that people are putting him on a higher pedestal than he deserves just because he is one of us. I just can't look at his results compared to O'Connor's over the same time span in a similar conference in terms of strength (if not tougher over their tenures) and come to the same conclusion others are coming to.

 

[DowntownDawg]

I also think Cohen would be a solid choice, but I get the impression that people are putting him on a higher pedestal than he deserves just because he is one of us. I just can't look at his results compared to O'Connor's over the same time span in a similar conference in terms of strength (if not tougher over their tenures) and come to the same conclusion others are coming to.

Very well put, this is how I feel as well. That said, I believe he'll be our next head coach, and I will be satisfied. If he hadn't finished strong this year, I would be worried.

Edited to add: I still don't understand why there has not been more buzz around O'Conner.

 

[RobertF50]

would both be good choices. I mostly hope whoever we get brings his whole staff. Cohens teams have knocked the fire out of the ball since he got there. If we don't get the staff with the coach it could be trouble. Already there is talk about creating a position for Raffo. That smacks of Polk keeping a hand in the way things are run. What head coach wants to coach under those conditions. Maybe it would work and maybe I'm wrong, but I would like one day for the fans to be rewarded for our loyalty. I've pulled for State many years before Raffo got here. We use to hit really good before Raffo became our hitting coach. How many other jobs would make you the boss just because you did not leave and their wife wants to stay. I wish we could put anything that coached under Polk on the road and start over. Not to many places will make a spot for you after years of poor performance because you don't want to leave.

 

[Todd4State]

This is Cohen's 5th year. Same with O'Connor. They should both be in a regional this year. That would make five out of five for O'Connor and two out of five for Cohen. I didn't include Norhwestern State because it was apples to oranges in this comparison, and I don't think that's as important as what he's done in a major conference.

I also think Cohen would be a solid choice, but I get the impression that people are putting him on a higher pedestal than he deserves just because he is one of us. I just can't look at his results compared to O'Connor's over the same time span in a similar conference in terms of strength (if not tougher over their tenures) and come to the same conclusion others are coming to.

</p>Why do you think that what Cohen did at Northwestern State is apples and oranges? They are D-I. It's not like they're in the same conference as Millsaps. I'm sure that they probably have to play people like LSU and Tulane. The man won 40 games there in his first season and was named the conference coach of the year twice. The fact that he was able to win there- which was his first job- is very impressive. Also, you talk about the success of former ACC HC/assist coaches. Well, last night they were talking about how many SEC coaches have been a part of Northwestern State- Cohen, Jim Wells, and Mike Bianco.

As far as the MSU pedastal- I haven't heard or seen anyone that has said specifically that we should hire Cohen just because he played at State. If we all just wanted someone who played at State, we all would probably be OK with Raffo. As I've said, it's a bonus. It's not a deal maker or a deal breaker- but it may put him over the top with regards to the other candidates. So, it doesn't make any more sense to write the guy off just because he played at State than it does to hire someone just because they coached in the ACC. I do think that the people that want Cohen want him for the same reason I do- his teams hustle, they hit well, they pitch well, they field well, and he doesn't make lame *** excuses for losing. He also gets the most out of his team, which is really the mark of a great coach as well.

And if you think a conference with Duke, Maryland, Wake Forest, Boston College, and Virginia Tech is similar to the SEC, I can't help you there other than to say it's not. Unless you write for Baseball America of course.

 

[jwbigcreek]

took an SEC job & went further than MSU ever has in the CWS (2nd place). Don't like the SOB (even if he shares my last name), but overall he's been a pretty good coach (would think both their SEC & post-season record is better than ours since he took over).

 

[SanfordRJones]

Why do you think that what Cohen did at Northwestern State is apples and oranges?

Because there wasn't anything in O'Connor's resume to compare it to. For the same reason, I also left off Notre Dame's results while O'Connor was assistant coach, including his Asst. Coach of the Year awards (I have also not mentioned that he would be intimately familiar with how LSU's program is run since he coached under Mainieri for years at ND).

As far as the MSU pedastal- I haven't heard or seen anyone that has said specifically that we should hire Cohen just because he played at State.

Neither have I, but it's just pretty obvioius to me, especially in this comparison. It's also apparent with the way you appear to be minimizing O'Connor's results compared to Cohen's in order to justify your belief that Cohen is the better coach. He may be the better coach, but the results don't bear that out over the last 5 seasons.

I don't think anyone who doesn't have him #1 is writing off Cohen. We just realize there are other candidates with teams that also hustle, do everything well, and get the most out of their team, while also putting up more wins and more post-season success.

And if you think a conference with Duke, Maryland, Wake Forest, Boston College, and Virginia Tech is similar to the SEC, I can't help you there other than to say it's not. Unless you write for Baseball America of course.

Look at the CWS participants since 2004, Cohen and O'Connor's first year. The SEC has had 9 teams in with a combined record of 8-17 (.320), including '05 runner-up Florida. Meanwhile, the ACC has had 7 teams in with a combined record of 11-13 (.458), including two time runner-up North Carolina. This includes Miami in '04 when they weren't in the conference yet (they were 1-2 in the CWS that year). Aside from the Big 12 having five teams in the CWS during that time, no other conference even comes close. How can you possibly say the strength of the two conferences isn't similar? I'm as big an SEC homer as there is, but I can't say that with a straight face.

 

[Todd4State]

I do realize that there are other coaches that have their teams play the right way. Why not take the one that has actually coached in the SEC and has had success? It's just like any other job- experience is almost always preferred. Take Tom Walter at UNO for example. He has done a great job there, likely has them going to a Regional. I think he would probably be a great choice, but he would be a little more risky than Cohen because he has never coached in the SEC. Now, that is a small risk, but at this point why take that risk? For the record, I would value Tim Corbin over O'Conner for that same reason. Also, our program is not your typical no one gives a crap program that has to be built from the ground up. We do have one of the most demanding fan bases in America as far as college baseball is concerned. Just making a Regional is not good enough at MSU (nor should it be), but that is good enough at a lot of places. Someone that has been a part of MSU and knows that going in is definately going to have a leg up. The last thing we need is another coach with the "Well, we made the SEC Tournament" attitude who wonders why everyone is trying to run him off.

All that CWS stat tells me is that the top half of the ACC is very strong. (Duh). I also am aware that the ACC is the top rated conference this year. What I'm saying is if O'Conner coached in the SEC he wouldn't have the occasional Duke, Virgina Tech, or Maryland to beat up on. Let me put it this way- if UK was in the ACC how would they do? Or how would Virginia do in the ACC? UV only went 15-15 in the ACC this year. I would suspect that UK would do a little bit better and UV would probably do a little bit worse. In fact, it's probably easier to make a Regional in the ACC than the SEC because you have to play the Miami's, Clemson's, FSU's, and etc., but at the same time you also get to play people like Maryland. (Yeah, and someone in the SEC gets to play MSU before someone types it.)

And to be fair to the SEC you should take away our stellar 0-2 run last year. </p>