Compelling Show!

[Stneumann83]

I had trouble sleeping early this morning. Came out to the living room, turned on the TV to bring up an old Penn State game on YouTube. The first thing I see is this video l linked above. At first I thought it was going to be a Paterno hit piece. However it was far from that. If what this man says is true, a Georgetown Graduate and non fan of Penn State or Paterno, then holy God this is one of the greatest injustices ever to befall a person in this state’s history. If anyone else watches this link above, I’d appreciate your thoughts.

 

[nittanyfan333]

 

[Midnighter]

I had trouble sleeping early this morning. Came out to the living room, turned on the TV to bring up an old Penn State game on YouTube. The first thing I see is this video l linked above. At first I thought it was going to be a Paterno hit piece. However it was far from that. If what this man says is true, a Georgetown Graduate and non fan of Penn State or Paterno, then holy God this is one of the greatest injustices ever to befall a person in this state’s history. If anyone else watches this link above, I’d appreciate your thoughts.

 

[LaJollaCreek]

Alex Jones (Zeiglar in this case...SSDP) and many others still believe Sandy Hook was staged too.....people attached to things tend to deny the truth if they don't like it or if it is inconvenient to them. Say it enough and it becomes their reality. Our country is living proof of this...don't like it...call it fake, blame the victims, and disassociate yourself from reality. Qanon existed in this country and still does....so a portion of the PSU fanbase still wanting to pretend Jerry is the victim over the kids he molested really isn't a shock any longer.

 

[Midnighter]

Alex Jones and many others still believe Sandy Hook was staged too.....people attached to things tend to deny the truth if they don't like it or if it is inconvenient to them. Say it enough and it becomes their reality. Our country is living proof of this...don't like it...call it fake, blame the victims, and disassociate yourself from reality. Qanon existed in this country and still does....so a portion of the PSU fanbase still wanting to pretend Jerry is the victim over the kids he molested really isn't a shock any longer.

You're trying to compare conclusions based on objective, science based fact to subjective testimony and memory therapy. Wildly non-equivalent but convenient; as is lumping in anyone who questions anything having to do with Sandusky in with QAnon and Alex Jones. Jesus.

 

[LaJollaCreek]

You're trying to compare conclusions based objective, science based fact to subjective testimony and memory therapy. Wildly non-equivalent but convenient; as is lumping in anyone who questions anything having to do with Sandusky in with QAnon and Alex Jones. Jesus.

Denialism is a thing and people can do whatever mental gymnastics they need to. You just don't have to expect everyone else to jump into that pool and go along with the BS. The jury listened to 8 adults testify to what Jerry did to them as children and they all believed them. People who report on PSU and sat through that whole case said they were all believable. You can talk about repressed memory or subjective testimony, but that means you aren't listen to what experts on the topic of sexual assaults say. In terms of victims coming forward later if they even ever do at all. Why they block it out in some cases? Were there actions normal for victims of abuse as a child or the just outlandish?

Next you have to do the mental gymnastics of not even attempting to think why a football DC and head of a charity for underprivileged kids had so many kids alone over and over again. Dozens and dozens of times. You know what Jerry had to say about that...nothing...he had no defense for getting so many kids alone in hotels, showers, or beds. Just like he didn't deny jumping into a 12 year old boys bed and blowing raspberries on his stoomach.

Oh wait....they got money...so that means none of this happened. We recognize the behaviors of PTSD for soldiers and adult rape victims, but not those who were abused as children if it's inconvenient. If people want to pretend Jerry is innocent or the victim of the judicial system....they can....just like those who feel like the election was stolen or whatever other BS is out there and they have "evidence" to say it didn't.....until the courts say....no that really did happen. Hell the Paterno report hired a leading expert in the field on the topic and he stated Jerry was at the top 1% of all sexual predators....but we should listen to John Zeiglar who was grifting naive PSU fans for money to help set the record straight.

If Tom wants to let this trash keep littering the site...so be it. Just as easy as 2 clicks for me.

 

[Midnighter]

Denialism is a thing and people can do whatever mental gymnastics they need to. You just don't have to expect everyone else to jump into that pool and go along with the BS. The jury listened to 8 adults testify to what Jerry did to them as children and they all believed them. People who report on PSU and sat through that whole jury said they were all believable. You can talk about repressed memory or subjective testimony, but that means you aren't listen to what experts on the topic of sexual assaults say. In terms of victims coming forward later if they even ever do at all. Why they block it out in some cases? Were there actions normal for victims of abuse as a child or the just outlandish?

Next you have to do the mental gymnastics of not even attempting to think why a football DC and head of a charity for underprivileged kids had so many kids alone over and over again. Dozens and dozens of times. You know what Jerry had to say about that...nothing...he had no defense for getting so many kids alone in hotels, showers, or beds. Just like he didn't deny jumping into a 12 year old boys bed and blowing raspberries on his stoomach.

Oh wait....they got money...so that means none of this happened. If people want to pretend Jerry is innocent or the victim of the judicial system....they can....just like those who feel like the election was stolen or whatever other BS is out there and they have "evidence" to say it didn't.....until the courts say....no that really did happen. Hell the Paterno report hired a leading expert in the field on the topic and he stated Jerry was at the top 1% of all sexual predators....but we should listen to John Zeiglar who was grifting naive PSU fans for money to help set the record straight.

If Tom wants to let this trash keep littering the site...so be it. Just as easy as 2 clicks for me.

Problem is a lot of the memory therapy stuff was debunked by professionals in the field, during testimony. But, it can just be ignored by anyone, including a judge. It's not like you can point to a round picture of earth and say 'SEE?' Or point to the graves of 23 children and say, 'SEE?' Instead, it's 'do we believe the testimony of people who have a financial incentive to show Jerry is guilty as hell?'

Anyway, agree this isn't worth discussing anymore. It's like the Franklin contract but more upsetting.

 

[LaJollaCreek]

Problem is a lot of the memory therapy stuff was debunked by professionals in the field, during testimony. But, it can just be ignored by anyone, including a judge. It's not like you can point to a round picture of earth and say 'SEE?' Or point to the graves of 23 children and say, 'SEE?' Instead, it's 'do we believe the testimony of people who have a financial incentive to show Jerry is guilty as hell?'

Anyway, agree this isn't worth discussing anymore. It's like the Franklin contract but more upsetting.

It's actually nothing at all like the Franklin contract...but I agree....it's not worth discussing....yet here people are trying to turn this site back 10 years. Thank god the pay mods would put this crap away immediately.

 

[Midnighter]

It's actually nothing at all like the Franklin contract...but I agree....it's not worth discussing....yet here people are trying to turn this site back 10 years. Thank god the pay mods would put this crap away immediately.

I meant in terms of board discourse, not seriousness/legitimacy. Anyways...

 

[nittanyfan333]

Anyway, agree this isn't worth discussing anymore. It's like the Franklin contract but more upsetting.

Hence the popcorn....

my personal opinion? Ziegler's investigation absolutely sowed seeds of doubt in my mind, but i won't be dogmatic about them. I just think there needs to be a thorough investigation into the whole thing. and an impartial, not paid for by the BOT investigation.

but i'm sure to get tarred and feathered by the patronizing dogmatic sensationalist crowd that knows everything about all things, for that take.

it's just sad that there can't be a civil conversation about all of this without pejoratives and ad-hominem attacks. I wish people could just be adult about disagreement...

 

[Midnighter]

Hence the popcorn....

my personal opinion? Ziegler's investigation absolutely sowed seeds of doubt in my mind, but i won't be dogmatic about them. I just think there needs to be a thorough investigation into the whole thing. and an impartial, not paid for by the BOT investigation.

but i'm sure to get tarred and feathered by the patronizing dogmatic sensationalist crowd that knows everything about all things, for that take.

it's just sad that there can't be a civil conversation about all of this without pejoratives and ad-hominem attacks. I wish people could just be adult about disagreement...

For me it's, what do you believe about McQueary? He's either a liar or a coward, and maybe a good chance he's both, but if he did see or thought he saw actual or implied sex in Lasch and did nothing about it at the time and went to his dad before the cops, he's guilty/culpable for everything Sandusky did after that.

 

[GrimReaper]

For me it's, what do you believe about McQueary? He's either a liar or a coward, and maybe a good chance he's both, but if he did see or thought he saw actual or implied sex in Lasch and did nothing about it at the time and went to his dad before the cops, he's guilty/culpable for everything Sandusky did after that.

You can add stupid to the liar and or/coward. My thoughts: he saw the Grinning Baboon and a kid in the shower and not much more. Years later he embellished the account for no malintent beyond wanting to be Mr. Big Stuff. Then it got away from him and he got dragged into perpetuating and doubling down on the lie. And here we are today.

 

[Ironman2]

It's actually nothing at all like the Franklin contract...but I agree....it's not worth discussing....yet here people are trying to turn this site back 10 years. Thank god the pay mods would put this crap away immediately.

If it's not worth discussing, then why are you?

 

[StamfordBridgeVikingatLeftOffensiveTackle]

You can add stupid to the liar and or/coward. My thoughts: he saw the Grinning Baboon and a kid in the shower and not much more. Years later he embellished the account for no malintent beyond wanting to be Mr. Big Stuff. Then it got away from him and he got dragged into perpetuating the and doubling down on the lie. And here we are today.

 

[LaJollaCreek]

Hence the popcorn....

my personal opinion? Ziegler's investigation absolutely sowed seeds of doubt in my mind, but i won't be dogmatic about them. I just think there needs to be a thorough investigation into the whole thing. and an impartial, not paid for by the BOT investigation.

but i'm sure to get tarred and feathered by the patronizing dogmatic sensationalist crowd that knows everything about all things, for that take.

it's just sad that there can't be a civil conversation about all of this without pejoratives and ad-hominem attacks. I wish people could just be adult about disagreement...

I think we're talking about 2 separate "investigations". One was an actual criminal investigation, the other was a paid damage control narrative IMO. The BoT "investigation" isn't what landed Jerry in prison, but it did cause the fallout elsewhere at PSU. Innocent people (Joe, Tim, Grahmn) were run over for all the wrong reasons and that wasn't right....,but those wrongs don't make me want to excuse a pedophile for what he did either IMO. Jerry was the subject of the actual criminal investigation for which he is sitting in prison for. He was charged, his victims told the court what he did, and a jury believed them over the defenses "expert" witnesses....and every defense produces an expert shooting holes in something, but the jury has to find them beleivable.

I've seen some people scapegoat everyone but Jerry for some reason and make him the victim. Jerry's victims were doxxed on Tom's old site. People from that site were driving by Jerry's victims houses and yes that did occur....and they were bragging about it like it was a good thing. You say you want people to act civil, but the actions towards people who were molested as children wasn't civil at all by folks on the free Rivals site. Some still are on this site. Even if you didn't believe they were victims....it was crazy to go after them like some did.

So now the actual victims are supposed to line up and live through this all over again because some ex-broadcaster looking for hits and a small portion of the PSU fanbase want this all dragged up again? I'm all for them investigating how the BoT opened that investigation, how much money was spent, and why.....but yeah...I'm ok with leaving Jerry's victims alone short of actual real evidence saying Jerry is innocent. Bad defense theories after the fact or money being distributed may make other feel differently, but molest a bunch of kids and some lawyers will find that pay day. PSU, the catholic Church, US Womens gymnastics.....doesn't mean these people weren't victimized. Hopefuly this was civil enough...but probably not as some don't like hearing that some people believe Jerry is where he belongs, but also realize his crimes hurt way more than just his victims.

 

[DavidM]

For what it's worth, I met and talked with Mr. Ziegler in about 2013, and I can declare with absolute certainty that his tinfoil hat fit him very well at the time--and I'm sure he's widened the brim of that chapeau considerably since then. That he has continued to beat this particular drum for so long, and has found folks willing to believe him, is pretty astonishing to me--but then we do have QAnon and lots of other absurd conspiracy theories with many followers, so I shouldn't be surprised.

 

[PSUJam]

You can add stupid to the liar and or/coward. My thoughts: he saw the Grinning Baboon and a kid in the shower and not much more. Years later he embellished the account for no malintent beyond wanting to be Mr. Big Stuff. Then it got away from him and he got dragged into perpetuating and doubling down on the lie. And here we are today.

I'll guarantee MM is watching this thread just like he did on the old board. He finally started posting in a thread like this on July 4th 2018 as Psufan94979. He said one day he's going to tell all. Well, let's hear it pu$$y.

 

[GrimReaper]

I'll guarantee MM is watching this thread just like he did on the old board. He finally started posting in a thread like this on July 4th 2018 as Psufan94979. He said one day he's going to tell all. Well, let's hear it pu$$y.

Tell all? Yeah, more lies. He's already proved that he's a coward.

 

[LaJollaCreek]

If it's not worth discussing, then why are you?

I'm not starting these threads, but I'll still say I think Jerry is a complete POS.

 

[PSUJam]

I think we're talking about 2 separate "investigations". One was an actual criminal investigation, the other was a paid damage control narrative IMO. The BoT "investigation" isn't what landed Jerry in prison, but it did cause the fallout elsewhere at PSU. Innocent people (Joe, Tim, Grahmn) were run over for all the wrong reasons and that wasn't right....,but those wrongs don't make me want to excuse a pedophile for what he did either IMO. Jerry was the subject of the actual criminal investigation for which he is sitting in prison for. He was charged, his victims told the court what he did, and a jury believed them over the defenses "expert" witnesses....and every defense produces an expert shooting holes in something, but the jury has to find them beleivable.

I've seen some people scapegoat everyone but Jerry for some reason and make him the victim. Jerry's victims were doxxed on Tom's old site. People from that site were driving by Jerry's victims houses and yes that did occur....and they were bragging about it like it was a good thing. You say you want people to act civil, but the actions towards people who were molested as children wasn't civil at all by folks on the free Rivals site. Some still are on this site. Even if you didn't believe they were victims....it was crazy to go after them like some did.

So now the actual victims are supposed to line up and live through this all over again because some ex-broadcaster looking for hits and a small portion of the PSU fanbase want this all dragged up again? I'm all for them investigating how the BoT opened that investigation, how much money was spent, and why.....but yeah...I'm ok with leaving Jerry's victims alone short of actual real evidence saying Jerry is innocent. Bad defense theories after the fact or money being distributed may make other feel differently, but molest a bunch of kids and some lawyers will find that pay day. PSU, the catholic Church, US Womens gymnastics.....doesn't mean these people weren't victimized. Hopefuly this was civil enough...but probably not as some don't like hearing that some people believe Jerry is where he belongs, but also realize his crimes hurt way more than just his victims.

Mike can come out and fix this rather quickly now that the dust has settled. He won't because he was a coward then and apparently still is today.

 

[GrimReaper]

Mike can come out and fix this rather quickly now that the dust has settled. He won't because he was a coward then and apparently still is today.

I don't think that anything Magic Mike says at this point fixes anything (other that a guilty conscience if he has one). Too much damage done and any mea culpa will be dismissed for a variety of reasons.

 

[nittanyfan333]

For me it's, what do you believe about McQueary? He's either a liar or a coward, and maybe a good chance he's both, but if he did see or thought he saw actual or implied sex in Lasch and did nothing about it at the time and went to his dad before the cops, he's guilty/culpable for everything Sandusky did after that.

Yeah I can see both sides to the story. Having been in some fight-or-flight situations myself I can understand that everyone reacts to those situations differently when confronted with them. Empathy is all I’m saying there.

That said, with the potential fixing games and prick picks, I lean HEAVILY towards him being a POS.

But I think the credibility flag needs to be thrown towards a lot of these “victims” too. I’m not saying they’re all lying, but the work Ziegler did into some of them really makes me question motive, which in turn makes me question legitimacy. Again, not saying they’re all lying, but not saying they’re all telling the truth either. More investigation needs to happen.

 

[Midnighter]

Yeah I can see both sides to the story. Having been in some fight-or-flight situations myself I can understand that everyone reacts to those situations differently when confronted with them. Empathy is all I’m saying there.

That said, with the potential fixing games and prick picks, I lean HEAVILY towards him being a POS.

But I think the credibility flag needs to be thrown towards a lot of these “victims” too. I’m not saying they’re all lying, but the work Ziegler did into some of them really makes me question motive, which in turn makes me question legitimacy. Again, not saying they’re all lying, but not saying they’re all telling the truth either. More investigation needs to happen.

Agree with all this noting if you don’t want to confront JS, you get the cops. Then have Jerry explain himself and produce the kid with him.

 

[GrimReaper]

Agree with all this noting if you don’t want to confront JS, you get the cops. Then have Jerry explain himself and produce the kid with him.

Therein is the stupid part.

 

[nittanyfan333]

Agree with all this noting if you don’t want to confront JS, you get the cops. Then have Jerry explain himself and produce the kid with him.

100%.

but he didn’t. And urgency was a critical component in the prosecution’s case, which should have fallen apart when the timeline showed months had gone by before he purportedly talked to JVP. Again….. credibility. The whole case wreaks of credibility issues. And that makes me question everything.

But I’ll fully admit that a 20 year career determining credibility to help strengthen or weaken reporting makes me weight credibility very heavily, if that makes sense.

 

[haveyoumethoward]

I admit I didn't read all the "non discussions" above, but to me the only important thing is that Joe is the only one who got really f**ked.

 

[LaJollaCreek]

I admit I didn't read all the "non discussions" above, but to me the only important thing is that Joe is the only one who got really f**ked.

Disagree. Tim, GS, and a few others took it on the chin with Joe. The program itself was slammed by the NCAA for a criminal offense that was clearly not for some competitive advantage. All the folks that did work hard at TSM for all the right reasons only to find out it was Jerry's grooming playground. Then you throw in the people Jerry molested which lead to all sorts of long term issues there.

The only victims that aren't a victim in all of this to me is Jerry and also JZ who used this situation to try and make a name for himself by basically doing nothing more than victim shaming. Victim shaming is a decent tactic, but when you have that many victims....it doesn't work and it didn't work other than folks that are tied to PSU for the most part. JZ isn't some expert on abuse, the law, or anything else. I believe even today he's a podcaster still trying to make his name known? People that don't question why he was so invested in this case don't want to consider that he was taking them for a ride.

 

[GrimReaper]

Disagree. Tim, GS, and a few others took it on the chin with Joe. The program itself was slammed by the NCAA for a criminal offense that was clearly not for some competitive advantage. All the folks that did work hard at TSM for all the right reasons only to find out it was Jerry's grooming playground. Then you throw in the people Jerry molested which lead to all sorts of long term issues there.

The only victims that aren't a victim in all of this to me is Jerry and also JZ who used this situation to try and make a name for himself by basically doing nothing more than victim shaming. Victim shaming is a decent tactic, but when you have that many victims....it doesn't work and it didn't work other than folks that are tied to PSU for the most part. JZ isn't some expert on abuse, the law, or anything else. I believe even today he's a podcaster still trying to make his name known? People that don't question why he was so invested in this case don't want to consider that he was taking them for a ride.

Curley and Schultz did get screwed. So did Spanier, but he knew enough to prevent the blow-back on PSU, but was too arrogant to be bothered. I have little sympathy for him.

 

[Ironman2]

I'm not starting these threads, but I'll still say I think Jerry is a complete POS.

If he did what he's accused of that would be as low as someone can go.

 

[Pennst8]

I had trouble sleeping early this morning. Came out to the living room, turned on the TV to bring up an old Penn State game on YouTube. The first thing I see is this video l linked above. At first I thought it was going to be a Paterno hit piece. However it was far from that. If what this man says is true, a Georgetown Graduate and non fan of Penn State or Paterno, then holy God this is one of the greatest injustices ever to befall a person in this state’s history. If anyone else watches this link above, I’d appreciate your thoughts.

Did Marjorie Taylor Greene produce this? Just wondering.

 

[Stneumann83]

Did Marjorie Taylor Greene produce this? Just wondering.

Marjorie Taylor Greene? Not sure if the Congresswoman managed time trying to defend Joe Paterno by producing this video…. Relax, I get your sarcasm, but out of curiosity, did you by any chance believe the Trump Russia collusion story? See I bet you did. Probably can’t wait to just vote for Joe again too.

 

[haveyoumethoward]

Disagree. Tim, GS, and a few others took it on the chin with Joe. The program itself was slammed by the NCAA for a criminal offense that was clearly not for some competitive advantage. All the folks that did work hard at TSM for all the right reasons only to find out it was Jerry's grooming playground. Then you throw in the people Jerry molested which lead to all sorts of long term issues there.

The only victims that aren't a victim in all of this to me is Jerry and also JZ who used this situation to try and make a name for himself by basically doing nothing more than victim shaming. Victim shaming is a decent tactic, but when you have that many victims....it doesn't work and it didn't work other than folks that are tied to PSU for the most part. JZ isn't some expert on abuse, the law, or anything else. I believe even today he's a podcaster still trying to make his name known? People that don't question why he was so invested in this case don't want to consider that he was taking them for a ride.

For sure they were they were too but Joe was the main target to be taken down by the governor and the bot and others for whatever reason. I've read other reports recently that advances credible theory/evidence that Jerry wasn't even guilty. Seems funny that 30+ victims lost their memory for years and years about being molested then having it miraculously restored by memory doctors when they found they had a big pay day coming.

 

[GrimReaper]

For sure they were they were too but Joe was the main target to be taken down by the governor and the bot and others for whatever reason. I've read other reports recently that advances credible theory/evidence that Jerry wasn't even guilty. Seems funny that 30+ victims lost their memory for years and years about being molested then having it miraculously restored by memory doctors when they found they had a big pay day coming.

Don't believe Corbett cared one way or another about Joe's fate. It was Spankie's scrotum that he wanted.

 

[AvgUser]

I admit I didn't read all the "non discussions" above, but to me the only important thing is that Joe is the only one who got really f**ked.

Curley, Schultz and Spanier were too

 

[AvgUser]

I had trouble sleeping early this morning. Came out to the living room, turned on the TV to bring up an old Penn State game on YouTube. The first thing I see is this video l linked above. At first I thought it was going to be a Paterno hit piece. However it was far from that. If what this man says is true, a Georgetown Graduate and non fan of Penn State or Paterno, then holy God this is one of the greatest injustices ever to befall a person in this state’s history. If anyone else watches this link above, I’d appreciate your thoughts.

I listened to this. Zeigler uncovers a ton of great facts and material. Unfortunately, he takes five times the amount of time to say it than is necessary. This interview could have been boiled down to ten minutes had Z stated the point and let the host ask a follow-up.

If you thought this interview was good, I do recommend listening to his entire “Benefit of Hindsight” podcast. Yes you do need to similarly wait for him to make his point. But, zeigler does a great job of digging deep and getting/explainimg a mountain of evidence that was never presented at trial.

 

[Horse withno Game]

Denialism is a thing and people can do whatever mental gymnastics they need to. You just don't have to expect everyone else to jump into that pool and go along with the BS. The jury listened to 8 adults testify to what Jerry did to them as children and they all believed them. People who report on PSU and sat through that whole case said they were all believable. You can talk about repressed memory or subjective testimony, but that means you aren't listen to what experts on the topic of sexual assaults say. In terms of victims coming forward later if they even ever do at all. Why they block it out in some cases? Were there actions normal for victims of abuse as a child or the just outlandish?

Next you have to do the mental gymnastics of not even attempting to think why a football DC and head of a charity for underprivileged kids had so many kids alone over and over again. Dozens and dozens of times. You know what Jerry had to say about that...nothing...he had no defense for getting so many kids alone in hotels, showers, or beds. Just like he didn't deny jumping into a 12 year old boys bed and blowing raspberries on his stoomach.

Oh wait....they got money...so that means none of this happened. We recognize the behaviors of PTSD for soldiers and adult rape victims, but not those who were abused as children if it's inconvenient. If people want to pretend Jerry is innocent or the victim of the judicial system....they can....just like those who feel like the election was stolen or whatever other BS is out there and they have "evidence" to say it didn't.....until the courts say....no that really did happen. Hell the Paterno report hired a leading expert in the field on the topic and he stated Jerry was at the top 1% of all sexual predators....but we should listen to John Zeiglar who was grifting naive PSU fans for money to help set the record straight.

If Tom wants to let this trash keep littering the site...so be it. Just as easy as 2 clicks for me.

IMO the big engine for this thread is the cognitive dissonance that JP presided over the PSU portion of this. If JS is innocent then that JP dissonance goes away. If only these threads could turn that discussion away from whether JS is innocent (not!).

I wish the discussion instead were about how a spectacular serial pedophile can flummox old men. It would be a rational discussion. Then again, look where I/we are posting. Sigh.

 

[LB99]

Marjorie Taylor Greene? Not sure if the Congresswoman managed time trying to defend Joe Paterno by producing this video…. Relax, I get your sarcasm, but out of curiosity, did you by any chance believe the Trump Russia collusion story? See I bet you did. Probably can’t wait to just vote for Joe again too.

Did you vote for Corbett?

 

[Stneumann83]

Did you vote for Corbett?

Sure did the first time around.

 

[LB99]

Sure did the first time around.

How ironic.

 

[scocha409]

It's actually nothing at all like the Franklin contract...but I agree....it's not worth discussing....yet here people are trying to turn this site back 10 years. Thank god the pay mods would put this crap away immediately.

Not worth discussing, yet every thread on the topic you are the most prolific poster, what a tool……