Could Somebody Please Help An Old Man With Freestyle?

[DavidM]

I grew up with folkstyle--it was the only "style" that I knew, other than watching a little of the Olympics. Watching the Trials over the past few days, I was unable to understand the basis for putting a wrestler on the passivity clock. The second Nolf/Dake match provided a perfect example. To my eye, neither wrestler tried very much in a scoreless match, but twice Nolf was put on the clock--which wound up giving Dake two points, and essentially the match. Somebody posted on this board that a wrestler behind in the score would be put on the clock for passivity, and yet I saw it being used when a wrestler was both ahead AND even in the score. To this uneducated eye, the seemingly arbitrary enforcement of this "rule" gives an extremely unfair advantage to one wrestler over another.

 

[cb1994]

While it does seem arbitrary at times, I’m sure even to people much more knowledgeable than I am, there are some specific things that matter, and that are clear in matches with Dake.

Here’s what I see:

Dake owns the center of the mat. He doesn’t move off it unless he wants to (to go for a push out, if you somehow get to his leg, etc). That immediately puts the other guy in a “passive“ situation.

Dake does not make offensive moves that he isn't going to finish. The things that avoid stalling in folkstyle (half shots to an outside leg, feints, grabs at an ankle) are actually passive things in freestyle. he does not do these, and many other guys do as a setup for offense that never actually comes against Dake.

Dake is also strong enough that as soon as you put yourself in an unbalanced position, he will immediately push you out and get a point, which lessens his passivity and increases yours because you don’t score on your offense and can’t control the center.

He is content to get dinged for Defensive wrestling because he knows his Defense is so good that the other guy will give him points. Without him risking anything.

As I said throughout his matches, he is a historically talented wrestler, just not interesting to watch.

Now his younger days where he‘d let guys to his legs and then ragdoll them across the floor? THAT was fun.

 

[DavidM]

So if a wrestler simply stays in the middle of the mat, the other guy is explicitly passive? Wow. Give me folk style 24/7.

 

[Bob78]

While it does seem arbitrary at times, I’m sure even to people much more knowledgeable than I am, there are some specific things that matter, and that are clear in matches with Dake.

Here’s what I see:

Dake owns the center of the mat. He doesn’t move off it unless he wants to (to go for a push out, if you somehow get to his leg, etc). That immediately puts the other guy in a “passive“ situation.

Dake does not make offensive moves that he isn't going to finish. The things that avoid stalling in folkstyle (half shots to an outside leg, feints, grabs at an ankle) are actually passive things in freestyle. he does not do these, and many other guys do as a setup for offense that never actually comes against Dake.

Dake is also strong enough that as soon as you put yourself in an unbalanced position, he will immediately push you out and get a point, which lessens his passivity and increases yours because you don’t score on your offense and can’t control the center.

He is content to get dinged for Defensive wrestling because he knows his Defense is so good that the other guy will give him points. Without him risking anything.

As I said throughout his matches, he is a historically talented wrestler, just not interesting to watch.

Now his younger days where he‘d let guys to his legs and then ragdoll them across the floor? THAT was fun.

Thanks. I generally only watch Freestyle when the Olympics are on, but caught most of the trials here on TV. The scoring was confusing and "strange" to me b/c it went against what I'm used to in Folkstyle, so I appreciate this info. The scoring seemed to defy common sense at times b/c I know really just the one style. And Greco-Roman? Also tough to figure out for me.
I'm with David on preference for Folkstyle based on scoring alone. That said, I really enjoyed watching the Trials and seeing the best go against the best.

I probably missed it, but has there been a credible explanation as to why Beau did not get points, let alone the win, when he had his guy on his back for what seemed like an eternity in Day 1? Thanks.

 

[DavidM]

Thanks. I generally only watch Freestyle when the Olympics are on, but caught most of the trials here on TV. The scoring was confusing and "strange" to me b/c it went against what I'm used to in Folkstyle, so I appreciate this info. The scoring seemed to defy common sense at times b/c I know really just the one style. And Greco-Roman? Also tough to figure out for me.
I'm with David on preference for Folkstyle based on scoring alone. That said, I really enjoyed watching the Trials and seeing the best go against the best.

I probably missed it, but has there been a credible explanation as to why Beau did not get points, let alone the win, when he had his guy on his back for what seemed like an eternity in Day 1? Thanks.

I'd appreciate an explanation of that as well. His losing that match made no sense to me.

 

[LB99]

As others have said, I’ll root for Dake in a USA singlet, but that style of wrestling was boring as hell and may not work against the international competition. It was like watching Okie State guys.

 

[cb1994]

I probably missed it, but has there been a credible explanation as to why Beau did not get points, let alone the win, when he had his guy on his back for what seemed like an eternity in Day 1? Thanks.

Not sure I have anything for the pin not being called, but if you assume the no pin was correct, there was only 1 continuous “exposure” for Beau worth the 2 points that he received.

 

[Roar More]

Not sure I have anything for the pin not being called, but if you assume the no pin was correct, there was only 1 continuous “exposure” for Beau worth the 2 points that he received.

But he only got two points for the move. Should it not have been at least four points because there was a take down?

 

[cb1994]

But he only got two points for the move. Should it not have been at least four points because there was a take down?

Except there was not a takedown. They were in a scramble, Beau flipped him onto his back and he stayed there until the ref blew the whistle. McKenna never got back to a “defensible position” to get further exposures (similar to only getting 1 set of back points in a long pinning combination in folk style) and Beau never had him in a position for a “takedown” to be awarded.

 

[WV lion]

As others have said, I’ll root for Dake in a USA singlet, but that style of wrestling was boring as hell and may not work against the international competition. It was like watching Okie State guys.

Has already been proven to work against international competition.

 

[BriantheLion]

Like most Americans interested in wrestling, I grew up doing and watching folkstyle, so it seems “normal “to me, and I understand the nuances.

Greco is so distinctively different that I can easily keep in mind that it is what it is…

Freestyle looks more like folkstyle for short stretches, so I find myself lapsing into thinking it is, until a sequence happens that is undertaken, allowed, and scored in the different way, then I sometimes get irritated with it…. especially the consecutive back exposure points racked up with the roll throughs with leg lace or gut wrench, neither of which would be allowed, let alone rewarded with points, in folkstyle … at least they don’t CALL it nearfalls, as those moves rarely seem to have a threat of a pin.

But if we want to see our guys compete beyond college, that’s the game that is played!

I suppose anyone who is used to the international styles thinks folkstyle is pretty wacky, too!

Does anyone know whether folkstyle is contested in youth, high school, or colleges in any other countries, or if it is purely an American sport?

 

[SRATH]

While it does seem arbitrary at times, I’m sure even to people much more knowledgeable than I am, there are some specific things that matter, and that are clear in matches with Dake.

Here’s what I see:

Dake owns the center of the mat. He doesn’t move off it unless he wants to (to go for a push out, if you somehow get to his leg, etc). That immediately puts the other guy in a “passive“ situation.

Dake does not make offensive moves that he isn't going to finish. The things that avoid stalling in folkstyle (half shots to an outside leg, feints, grabs at an ankle) are actually passive things in freestyle. he does not do these, and many other guys do as a setup for offense that never actually comes against Dake.

Dake is also strong enough that as soon as you put yourself in an unbalanced position, he will immediately push you out and get a point, which lessens his passivity and increases yours because you don’t score on your offense and can’t control the center.

He is content to get dinged for Defensive wrestling because he knows his Defense is so good that the other guy will give him points. Without him risking anything.

As I said throughout his matches, he is a historically talented wrestler, just not interesting to watch.

Now his younger days where he‘d let guys to his legs and then ragdoll them across the floor? THAT was fun.

Well said cb. Like many, I am on a slow journey to better understand freestyle. Owning the center is very important and when one watches international freestyle, it is clear as day. What we think of it is irrelevant.....we are the folkstyle freaks. You provided clarity for me, thanks, regarding finishing shots. One committed shot is worth more than 20 half shots.

Dake is all arms and legs. Very nimble, his feet never stop. His positioning is perfect so if you are off balance for one second, he will take advantage of that weakness. Freestyle requires patience. Of course his strength has always been off the charts.

It was great to have Greco-Roman on this weekend.........a wonderful reminder how freaking amazing freestyle is comparatively.

Greco = Piss Break Greco = Laundry Break Greco = Beer Break Greco = Lunch Break Greco = Check Emails

 

[El_Jefe]

American wrestlers tend to shoot from arm's length. With foreign wrestlers, it's more close-in hand-to-hand combat -- and since most refs are foreign, that's the standard for calling passivity.

When wrestlers stay at arm's length, freestyle refs view that as being disengaged and thus passive. Unfortunately that's a hurdle for US wrestlers accustomed to folk.

This also ties into "holding center" -- if one guy holds center and the other doesn't, then the other guy is viewed as being disengaged. The action is supposed to be closer to the center of the mat, and one guy is closer to the boundary.

Dake is a conundrum. One one hand, Jason spent most of both matches too far away from Dake -- forget passivity, he couldn't reach Dake's legs for his attacks. OTOH, getting close to Dake is probably worse. Dake has great short-area offense and (thanks to freestyle passivity) does not waste energy working from distance, is content to let the opponent get into his range. Dake is also the best in the world at chest-wrapping opponents -- he often outscores opponents on their shots.

Note also that Jason wrestled a very different match against Burroughs. For most of it, he was in close and worked Burroughs' head and neck hard enough to make Matt Brown jealous. He didn't take a lot of shots but was very obviously the more physically aggressive wrestler. So he is capable of beating some of the best in the world at that style. Dake is another creature.

 

[SRATH]

Jason may still have nightmares of Dake’s chest wrap.

 

[Karl_Havok]

Don't feel bad. I grew up wrestling folkstyle and have followed wrestling for a long time. I watched the trials with a buddy who is a wrestling coach and a buddy who is a ref and all three of us could not figure out what criteria is used to put someone on the passivity clock. The best I can come up with is that whomever is holding center (with his back to center) is the guy they see as being aggressive and the other guy ends up on the passivity clock. Even if the guy takes legit shots if he does not have his back to the center then it won't matter and he will get put on the clock.

I have no idea if this is actually correct or not because there did not seem to be any rhyme or reason to how they called passivity this past weekend so I really don't know and neither do any of my wrestling friends who coach and ref.