Discussion I was having last week...

[dawgstudent]

is Mike Leach's performance so far the equivalent of Ben Howland's? Howland would have made the postseason 5 straight seasons (4 NIT and 1 NCAA)?

I view lower tier bowls like the Liberty and Armed Forces Bowl like going to the NIT. 10 SEC teams make a bowl game. 6 are projected to make the tourney.

I'm not saying keep Howland. This is more about Leach so far. Jury is still out on Leach.

 

[DesotoCountyDawg]

This coming season is where the rubber meets the road. I know it’s a tougher schedule but you have to see more consistent play week to week.

 

[patdog]

Yes. Key words are so far. If Leach strings together 5 straight 6-6 seasons, he'll be gone too.

 

[Smoked Toag]

I've thought about it too. The whole retirement years sort of stuff. Hard to really compare the starting points because they were so different, so I guess you have to look at the peaks. Or maybe you could consider Leach's 2021 to be like Howland's 2016, because Howland had all those seniors back after the Ricky Ray 3-year train wreck, and the 3 years after Mullen could be considered the football train wreck. I just don't think those situations are really comparable though.

I would be disappointed with Leach if our football peak was like Howland's, which was the equivalent of what, Outback/Citrus Bowl? A 5 seed is roughly #16-20 teams in the country.

The big difference I see is that Howland was at UCLA - a blue blood. He had his shot at the big stage. Leach has never had that shot, matter of fact, he's been screwed over before. I'm hoping he has a chip on his shoulder about that.

 

[greenbean.sixpack]

Yes. Key words are so far. If Leach strings together 5 straight 6-6 seasons, he'll be gone too.

We can't afford 5 years of 6-6, if you attended any home games this past season, you know actual attendance (and more importantly enthusiasm) is way down.

 

[dorndawg]

Considering their starting points, Howland has overall done a better job than Leach.

 

[MSUDC11]

It’s a decent comparison in general. Leach has had more memorable wins but also more memorable losses. Howland has been a big ole blur of boring with no real signature win. The end results are pretty close.

The only thing I’ll say is you’re talking about one coach in Year 2 and one in Year 7. Leach still has time to elevate things, whereas time is probably up for Howland.

 

[DesotoCountyDawg]

For sure. The roster was pretty decimated by the Rick Ray fiasco whereas Leach had some talent to work with.

 

[CookieMonster.sixpack]

The biggest difference to me is setting. Howland had success at Pittsburgh and UCLA. Huge markets. He'd never really done it at a have-not in a big boy conference. Doesn't look like he ever will.

Leach, on the other hand, has done it at two different have-nots in big boy conferences. His track record is unimpeachable. He's earned a lot longer leash.

 

[57stratdawg]

Leach's problem is OM. I don't think our bowl destinations move the needle too much, but looking at an 0-3 record in the Egg Bowl is rough.

 

[Mafiadawg]

Leach has won some big games. Howland doesn’t have one signature win his whole tenure.

 

[msudawg12]

We have to consider COVID year a scratch. I look at this year as year 2.

 

[Leeshouldveflanked]

We can't afford 5 years of 6-6, if you attended any home games this past season, you know actual attendance (and more importantly enthusiasm) is way down.

A lot of the low attendance and enthusiasm is owned by the AD.

 

[horshack.sixpack]

I think that this is "Year 2" for Leach and I'm a fan of giving them until at least Year 3 to get their program running unless they tell us to kick rocks or sanction MMA events in our locker room.

 

[thatsbaseball]

MSU's problem is OM. Their football program is way ahead of ours at this point because of administration, promotion, fund raising etc.. Cohen's bosses are satisfied with the status quo so any changes we make will be slow to come by and probably under funded in any sport but baseball.

 

[Smoked Toag]

We can't afford 5 years of 6-6, if you attended any home games this past season, you know actual attendance (and more importantly enthusiasm) is way down.

Can't argue with this, and I really don't understand it. I guess people just don't believe in Leach? Mullen got the fanbase fired up too, and both Mullen/Leach have done a little of the rubber chicken stuff.

The attendance, and the age, are the two biggest comparables with Howland/Leach. But there are some big differences (one I mentioned earlier in thread), and another is that Leach is a system coach, while Howland is a crooter.

 

[Go Budaw]

The big difference is the level of competition and the disadvantages we have in football. SEC basketball has gotten better in recent years, but it’s still a hell of a lot harder to go 7-5 in the SEC West in football than it is to win 19-20 in SEC basketball.

Leach also has some signature road wins over LSU, Auburn, and Texas A&M as well as solid home win over a ranked NC State, all with a less than ideal roster in terms of both talent matched to his system and experience within that system. Does Howland have any equivalent wins in 7 years? Maybe that one win over Auburn at home that year they went to the Final 4?

It’s not even close for me. I’ve got way more faith in Leach than Howland, and a big part of that is Leach has proven he can work within the constraints of a program that isn’t overflowing with history or resources. Howland doesn’t have that history.

 

[Mr. Cook]

Let's be honest...winning is a must for all the reasons stated so far...and more. Attendance being a primary one of those, and that's a heavy burden for a program that is essentially .500 for life.

For those who travel distances to see the games (in or out of state), I'm sure many love coming and walking the campus atmosphere and soaking it all in. Regardless of what you think of Starkville, it's NOT a draw, and that's not a relfelction of the charcter of the people that live there (many of whom I think very highly of).

Let State start losing games, and add in a lot of empty seats, no student energy, etc. -- fans will start to think "why bother with the effort?"

Leach should not make the same miscalculation that Moorhead did -- you cannot coast at MSU...there is slim margin for error.

 

[Maroonthirteen]

Lose to OM again and get a lower bowl.... he's Howland football for sure. However Leach will catch more hell because people care more about football.

 

[MSUDC11]

Leach's problem is OM. I don't think our bowl destinations move the needle too much, but looking at an 0-3 record in the Egg Bowl is rough.

I don’t think the first EB loss bothered that many people because we were super short handed and most expected us to get killed. We were competitive and showed promise for the future at the very least.

The end of this year was tough because Leach actually had a lot of momentum going into Thanksgiving night. We’d recently had that crazy comeback at Auburn and we were 7-4 going into a home Egg Bowl that oddsmakers thought was a coin flip. But that game and the bowl didn’t go well and now many people are kinda sour on him (I am not personally at this point).

 

[greenbean.sixpack]

Let's be honest...winning is a must for all the reasons stated so far...and more. Attendance being a primary one of those, and that's a heavy burden for a program that is essentially .500 for life.

For those who travel distances to see the games (in or out of state), I'm sure many love coming and walking the campus atmosphere and soaking it all in. Regardless of what you think of Starkville, it's NOT a draw, and that's not a relfelction of the charcter of the people that live there (many of whom I think very highly of).

Let State start losing games, and add in a lot of empty seats, no student energy, etc. -- fans will start to think "why bother with the effort?"

Leach should not make the same miscalculation that Moorhead did -- you cannot coast at MSU...there is slim margin for error.

Prior to COVID, our tailgating atmosphere was great. We haven't tailgated since 2019 (or even walked much through the tailgating areas). Fans getting out of the habit of tailgating/attending for that season really hurt us as there is no other reason to come to Starkvegas and most drive in from 2 hours plus away.

I think the AD should come up with out of the box marketing/promotions to build back the atmosphere, maybe considering subsidizing tent set up, providing electrical outlets to plug in TVs, etc and enhancing cell service/wifi (not just in the tailgate area, but stadium as well). All this would take significant investment by the university, but they are asking for significant investment from us. Many more things they can do as well.

 

[Smoked Toag]

I don’t think the first EB loss bothered that many people because we were super short handed and most expected us to get killed. We were competitive and showed promise for the future at the very least.

The end of this year was tough because Leach actually had a lot of momentum going into Thanksgiving night. We’d recently had that crazy comeback at Auburn and we were 7-4 going into a home Egg Bowl that oddsmakers thought was a coin flip. But that game and the bowl didn’t go well and now many people are kinda sour on him (I am not personally at this point).

If that is true, it's beyond ridiculous. I don't want to lose to Ole Miss either, but this moronic 'Ole Miss or nothing' bunch needs to STFU. We have a lot of good things going for the football program, but because Ole Miss had an up year and beat us when they had a SIGNIFICANT talent advantage, the doomsayers are orgasming.

 

[Maroon Eagle]

Leach > Howland is an easy answer here.

He has done more with his scratch COVID year and 2021 than Howland did with his rebuilding years after Ray.

 

[PartTimeGenius]

If the so called "Year 3 is the year" Leach does the same as the "Year 3 is the year" Howland, maybe so. I was fairly high on Howland until we hit year 5 of the 3 year to glory track and had not made great strides. That said, even if Leach fails here and is ultimately a bust, I'm a big fan of the way he handles his program. No BS and doesn't care what little Johnny's momma thinks.

 

[Maroonthirteen]

Can't argue with this, and I really don't understand it. I guess people just don't believe in Leach? Mullen got the fanbase fired up too, and both Mullen/Leach have done a little of the rubber chicken stuff.
.

Mullen urged and cheered on the fan base to be passionate and buy tickets and be there. Leach seemed overwhelmed by the whole rah rah of the first press conference and has really been just going about his job matter of factly. His schtick is funny and interesting from the outside but isn't that funny when you are losing. Jokes and 50, 3 yard passes, aren't going to fill the stadium, wins are.