Discussion of Beaver Stadium project:
- Thread starter PSUFTG
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Quick question (and sorry if already addressed) - listening to the BWI podcast and Nate said the Beaver Stadium renovation project- which has been touted as costing $700mm - hasn’t even been sent out for proposal, but will be sent to approximately 10 firms. Why on earth would Penn State put a price on something that hasn’t been bid on?? Every bid will come in at or around $700 million. What am I missing?? Don’t you scope a project and ask firms to bid with their costs and select the one they best fits your needs at the best cost??
Will also say they should have just went full renovation/new build. This is gonna be a lot of nothing.
Public projects typically have multiple phases. The first is a concept that the entity for the project develops an idea and engages an engineering or architectural firm to develop a cost estimate. That is where the $700 MM comes from. It's an estimate. They are required by general law, to make that publically available.
The proposal going out is actually a bid document for the Architect/Engineering firm to develop a full design. That is the second step.
I tried to listen to that podcast, but I turned it off after a couple of minutes. I am of the opinion that as much as I like T Frank and Nate when it comes to college football stories/opinions, etc. when they try to delve into other topics (even related to football), they do a poor job of researching the issue before they speak on it. Kind of like this board.
If you want a full idea of how this process works, you can easily find the information under "Pennsylvania Public Bidding Laws:" or some similar title. As a matter of discussion, this is the process all public bidding projects take.
You raise very, very, very good points. (Of course, they are very similar to several points I have raised - so I am biased
)Run for a seat on the Board - and bring those questions with you (I know that may not be practical, but at the same time, I don't make that statement flippantly).
I tried to listen to that podcast, but I turned it off after a couple of minutes. I am of the opinion that as much as I like T Frank and Nate when it comes to college football stories/opinions, etc. when they try to delve into other topics (even related to football), they do a poor job of researching the issue before they speak on it. Kind of like this board.
Excuse me? You aren’t new around here. You know we’re all-knowing. Sheesh.
Interesting, but irrelevant. Those laws (that apply to the Commonwealth, and municipalities within the Commonwealth) do not apply to PSU.Public projects typically have multiple phases. The first is a concept that the entity for the project develops an idea and engages an engineering or architectural firm to develop a cost estimate. That is where the $700 MM comes from. It's an estimate. They are required by general law, to make that publically available.
The proposal going out is actually a bid document for the Architect/Engineering firm to develop a full design. That is the second step.
I tried to listen to that podcast, but I turned it off after a couple of minutes. I am of the opinion that as much as I like T Frank and Nate when it comes to college football stories/opinions, etc. when they try to delve into other topics (even related to football), they do a poor job of researching the issue before they speak on it. Kind of like this board.
If you want a full idea of how this process works, you can easily find the information under "Pennsylvania Public Bidding Laws:" or some similar title. As a matter of discussion, this is the process all public bidding projects take.
Heinz field was built, from the ground up - for (adjusted to 2023 $) about $500 miillion.
The Linc, similarly, in 2023 $, for around $700 million.
Both have capacities of around 70,000 (but their footprints are roughly equal to 90,000+ at Beaver Stadium - due to Chairback vs Bench seating) - certainly in the "ballpark" (no pun ntended) of what a Beaver Stadium replacement would require.
Both of those stadiums have hosted not only major college teams (yeah, I know "Pitt") but also NFL teams - with all of the necessary features to meet the needs of those organizations.
Could PSU get in at $500-700 Million? Maybe, Maybe Not - but has anyone even looked? If not, could they get in at $1 Billion? (Double the adjusted cost of Heinz Field?) Maybe, Maybe not - but has anyone even looked?
We have, right now on the UP campus, open land within a stone's throw from current Beaver Stadium, that is nearly identical in size to the plot where Beaver Stadium sits.
A "partial remodel", among other things, leaves us with a stadium that is 3/4 "old structure" (mostly 60 years old, some 20-30 years old).
What would be the savings in maintenance costs over the next 20 years? I don't know - does anyone? What would be the ancillary benefits of a new build? (We hear about things like "doing more with the structure". Structures like Heinz and Linc both have the requirements met to do things like hold concerts of 50-70,000 fans, among other things)
I don't know all the answers - but I surely would like to ask, and discuss, the questions.
Private sector does this also. It's called Front-End-Loading. Typically you spend some $ upfront to determine options, feasibility and cost, then go to some sort of GO-NO GO process at the C-suite level, similar to the process at PSU getting BOT approval.
Public projects typically have multiple phases. The first is a concept that the entity for the project develops an idea and engages an engineering or architectural firm to develop a cost estimate. That is where the $700 MM comes from. It's an estimate. They are required by general law, to make that publically available.
The proposal going out is actually a bid document for the Architect/Engineering firm to develop a full design. That is the second step.
I tried to listen to that podcast, but I turned it off after a couple of minutes. I am of the opinion that as much as I like T Frank and Nate when it comes to college football stories/opinions, etc. when they try to delve into other topics (even related to football), they do a poor job of researching the issue before they speak on it. Kind of like this board.
If you want a full idea of how this process works, you can easily find the information under "Pennsylvania Public Bidding Laws:" or some similar title. As a matter of discussion, this is the process all public bidding projects take.
Thanks - way more experience with federal contracting where in-house market research/proposal estimates are not shared with prospective bidders - for very good reason.
Yeah, that becomes a thing. Even within local/state public bidding rules, there are a number of nuances regarding what is able to be made public and not.
But, the bones of the process are probably pretty close.
So, how did PSU come up with the $700mm number? I assume it’s not just a ‘ballpark’ figure and that a good bit of research went into it…they hire a firm to develop a scope? Just curious as to how this works.
Generally, an engineering or architectural firm is hired to do an Engineering Estimate. Usually, it's part of a design - so the engineer who does the design, knows how much materials are needed and what type, (steel, concrete, etc), to complete the designed project, and couple that with an estimate of how long it takes (usually based on other projects they are familiar with), and add in various labor rates for the trades, etc. There are fudge factors to take into account inflationary costs, If there are permits required - those are taken into account (not so sure in this case).
When we do our projects (Civil Engineering), it's a combination of Concept Plans/Engineering Estimate for Construction/preparation of Bids for Contractors to Bid on.
No one at PSU simply pulled the number out of thin air. There is definitely a good bit of research. But, to be honest, even with all the research most engineering estimates are not "spot on"
Hope this helps.
Penn State laughs at ROI.
Just a guess: they came up with an amount (probably part of a larger University-wide financial plan) of debt they can issue without tanking the bond rating and then backed in to what they could build for it.
So, for a University project, what ROI would they expect if that was an issue? What would be the tangible benefit, other than keeping their $7MM/year and his staff and players happy? Some projects I have worked with (not all) are needed due to crumbling infrastructure, so the ROI component is ..... it's old and needs to be replaced? What I don't think most people think about is that structures like buildings, bridges, stadiums, all have a life expectancy, and need more care the older they get. (Kind of like people).
Or does the ROI tie in with what Kraft said about trying to get other events at Beaver Stadium? Like this Winter hockey game that people seem to be interested in.
WRT the specific issue being discussed (Beaver Stadium), you are skipping over the entire foundation. Namely, "What project to take on?".
Thats kind of an important step
That is understandable. I expect that your comments are all initiated from a perspective of "We are looking at project X" ("X" being a partial remodel of Beaver Stadium) as a given - and moving forward from there. In your case, entirely understandable and reasonable.
You are certainly not the only one.
There has probably never been a capital project undertaken by PSU where the "ROI" is any more clear - or fundamental - or germane to the discussion (or, quite frankly, easier to evaluate) than the Beaver Stadium project options (as opposed to, for example, evaluating the building of a new laboratory or classroom)
There should be an ROI for the amount over and above what it would cost to "keep their $7MM/year (it's $8mm btw) and his staff and players happy" which should be considerably less than $700mm i.e. the amount to make the stadium structurally and mechanically safe and sound. I've heard number of between $200mm- $300mm. I've also heard non-specific opinions that it could be less.
The ROI is, indeed, all revenue streams from the enhancements planned and would include things like hosting a Winter Classi (though that specifically is a drop in the bucket).
OK so now we have a defined ROI. But, I also believe (no proof, just a belief) that the $700MM falls under the necessary infrastructure improvements, regardless of keeping the coach and his staff happy and regardless of whether there are other revenue streams.
Does the estimated $700mil include the add on projects such as Jeffery Field, Lasch Building 2nd floor, etc.?
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