DL size and BIG play

[blion72]

on Phil this morning and on Lions Den there were discussions around the 1 Tech-DT size we have and the play in the BIG where there is a lot of power running. there was discussion that we have two large DTs = PJ and Cole Brevard. Brevard has been here for two years and never played in a game, so maybe his 4* rating is a bit over reality. Against Arkansas we saw next year's DL against a power running team, and it looked a bit worse than the Illinois game.

Phil's response was that Manny Diaz style DL will be smaller and quicker - aggressively attacking and penetrating to disrupt the play. it depends on strong LBs to take on OL if the RB gets by the penetration. Phil talked about the only big DT we have is PJ and we do not know his status or his injury or his recovery - will he even be ready by start of season. Phil referred to the transfer portal will be a need for a rush DE and DT. Also Isaac return timing looked like he may make spring practice.

so the interesting part of this discussion was

• Does size along the DL (especially 1-t DT) matter in the BIG, or can we stop the run staying on the smaller size?
• Will Manny's DEF style being smaller and faster = penetrating the OL work well against the BIG running teams - Wiscy, Minny, Iowa, Illinois, UMich, MSU, etc?
• IF we see this as a problem, does it have to be solved by transfer players?
• What about the current players - if we do not get transfers, what has to happen for this DL to work well?
• What if PJ is not able to come back at an effective level? Is Devon Ellies the only guy at 1-T DT? Is Brevard done?
• What are your expectations for the DL play vs power running teams in 2022?

 

[Ceasar]

Just my .02 but I don't think Diaz will have any impact on the size of our DTs. The DT room was set before he came on board so one could argue that moving forward we might recruit smaller quicker DTs, but that would take a number of years before the impact was seen. Further, PSU has recruited a lot of DEs and moved them to DT. So that might be consistent with Diaz' philosophy.

 

[s1uggo72]

Manny Diaz. Like he has the answers

 

[GregInPitt]

on Phil this morning and on Lions Den there were discussions around the 1 Tech-DT size we have and the play in the BIG where there is a lot of power running. there was discussion that we have two large DTs = PJ and Cole Brevard. Brevard has been here for two years and never played in a game, so maybe his 4* rating is a bit over reality. Against Arkansas we saw next year's DL against a power running team, and it looked a bit worse than the Illinois game.

Phil's response was that Manny Diaz style DL will be smaller and quicker - aggressively attacking and penetrating to disrupt the play. it depends on strong LBs to take on OL if the RB gets by the penetration. Phil talked about the only big DT we have is PJ and we do not know his status or his injury or his recovery - will he even be ready by start of season. Phil referred to the transfer portal will be a need for a rush DE and DT. Also Isaac return timing looked like he may make spring practice.

so the interesting part of this discussion was

• Does size along the DL (especially 1-t DT) matter in the BIG, or can we stop the run staying on the smaller size?
• Will Manny's DEF style being smaller and faster = penetrating the OL work well against the BIG running teams - Wiscy, Minny, Iowa, Illinois, UMich, MSU, etc?
• IF we see this as a problem, does it have to be solved by transfer players?
• What about the current players - if we do not get transfers, what has to happen for this DL to work well?
• What if PJ is not able to come back at an effective level? Is Devon Ellies the only guy at 1-T DT? Is Brevard done?
• What are your expectations for the DL play vs power running teams in 2022?

Thanks for the post. I guess I'm in the minority, but I am very optimistic about the DT's on the roster right now. Sure, Brevard as done nothing to date, but there are 5 or 6 that seem ready to go. Mustipher having almost a full year from Iowa game to get ready, Izzard and Ellies getting lots of experience in Mustipher's absence, Vanover and Mulbah both got playing time. Van den Berg also got a good bit of complimentary review and looks pretty quick for his size. And it looks like Beamon will return, as if he was not surely it would be known by now given that he sat out 2021 season. And both Beamon an Vanover look like the quick, somewhat smaller DT's that Diaz may like on the field in certain circumstances. That's 7 legit DT's plus Darkwa if he returns and the 2 true freshmen - how many does PSU need? So I question why anyone looking in from the outside of the program believes a transfer DT is necessary or really why a scholarship would be spent on one.

And regarding a backup big body to Mustipher or someone to pair with him against power running teams (and a replacement for him in 2023), a player like Izzard has the frame to put on the muscle and mass to be more of a rock 1 technique DE, just like Mustipher did between the 2020 and 2021 seasons.

But the other part of what you reviewed, and the roster as well, point to at least one Portal linebacker as a necessity. I'm not going to rehash the criticism of Katshir, but I'm not counting on him playing a key role if he returns. Jacobs, King and Buddin look like the only candidates for high level LB play to me. Sutherland never seems to be the playmaker when on the field that his special teams performance would seem to lead to, and Elsdon has not shown too much after getting some compliments the last year from Franklin. Wylie and Carter look like great prospects, but should we be led to believe either are a Parsons type impact player that could come in and be the first LB off the bench or possibly compete to start as the 2022 season get's going? I don't believe so.

So I'm in the camp that believe it is more likely that the staff will bring in 2 Portal LB's than it is that 1 Portal DT will be brought in. But then again it all depends on the players available, how they fit in at PSU,.....

 

[blion72]

Thanks for the post. I guess I'm in the minority, but I am very optimistic about the DT's on the roster right now. Sure, Brevard as done nothing to date, but there are 5 or 6 that seem ready to go. Mustipher having almost a full year from Iowa game to get ready, Izzard and Ellies getting lots of experience in Mustipher's absence, Vanover and Mulbah both got playing time. Van den Berg also got a good bit of complimentary review and looks pretty quick for his size. And it looks like Beamon will return, as if he was not surely it would be known by now given that he sat out 2021 season. And both Beamon an Vanover look like the quick, somewhat smaller DT's that Diaz may like on the field in certain circumstances. That's 7 legit DT's plus Darkwa if he returns and the 2 true freshmen - how many does PSU need? So I question why anyone looking in from the outside of the program believes a transfer DT is necessary or really why a scholarship would be spent on one.

But the other part of what you reviewed, and the roster as well, point to at least one Portal linebacker as a necessity. I'm not going to rehash the criticism of Katshir, but I'm not counting on him playing a key role if he returns. Jacobs, King and Buddin look like the only candidates for high level LB play to me. Sutherland never seems to be the playmaker when on the field that his special teams performance would seem to lead to, and Elsdon has not shown too much after getting some compliments the last year from Franklin. Wylie and Carter look like great prospects, but should we be led to believe either are a Parsons type impact player that could come in and be the first LB off the bench or possibly compete to start as the 2022 season get's going? I don't believe so.

So I'm in the camp that believe it is more likely that the staff will bring in 2 Portal LB's than it is that 1 Portal DT will be brought in. But then again it all depends on the players available, how they fit in at PSU,.....

I did not mention Darkwa - not sure where he stands, and also Fred Hansard. At one time, I thought Fred would be the rock in the middle, but seems to have deteriorated since his early years. Not sure if he is done or not. Sometimes I wonder if we shouldn't try one of the DTs who are quick but just backups and move to OT. I think Joe did that a couple times. Levi Brown was an example.

 

[PSUAlum]

I did not mention Darkwa - not sure where he stands, and also Fred Hansard. At one time, I thought Fred would be the rock in the middle, but seems to have deteriorated since his early years. Not sure if he is done or not. Sometimes I wonder if we shouldn't try one of the DTs who are quick but just backups and move to OT. I think Joe did that a couple times. Levi Brown was an example.

Levi is not a good example. They wanted Brown to play OT the minute he showed up on campus. He practiced at both DT and OT while he was redshirting as a frosh. AQ Shipley might be a better example. Darkwa is the only DT that I could see as an OT.

 

[J.E.B]

Darkwa is not an answer anywhere. Brevard can be but has to step it up. Yes, size does matter on the LOS. PSUs DL was small this year beyond Mustipher and it showed. Watch the two lines on Monday night. Huge!

 

[1000 OaksLion]

A competent, large 1 Tech DT is what makes any great defense great. If a center and/or guard combination can't move the 1 tech from his spot they can't run the ball between the tackles very well. They also can eat up 2 offensive linemen which frees up the MLB. And they can push the pocket forward so QBs can't step up in the pocket which makes it better for DE's on pass plays. I hope PJ makes a quick and full recovery, but odds are that he won't be playing at the level he played at preinjury until deep into next season. This is concerning because other than Brevard there is not one of the current DTs that possess the natural size to play the position effectively. As Phil mentioned Diaz likes to play an aggressive style of defense but imho aggressive defenses still need a big 1 tech DT to be most effective. Regardless of scheme what DC wouldn't want a DT to command a double team on most plays. In the Outback all of our DTs were pushed off the LOS way too often. So I ask...If there is no portal solution this off season are there any current OL that could fit the size requirement and actually play the 1 Tech. How about Wormley or Dawkins or Achumba? Could one of these naturally big guys make the switch? I have no idea but it's something that could be looked at this spring season.

 

[LB99]

The Arkansas game DL didn’t represent next year’s DL whatsoever. Mustipher, Beamon, Issac all were missing. Get them back to go with Tarburton, Ellies, and a few others and the DL will be fine.

 

[blion72]

A competent, large 1 Tech DT is what makes any great defense great. If a center and/or guard combination can't move the 1 tech from his spot they can't run the ball between the tackles very well. They also can eat up 2 offensive linemen which frees up the MLB. And they can push the pocket forward so QBs can't step up in the pocket which makes it better for DE's on pass plays. I hope PJ makes a quick and full recovery, but odds are that he won't be playing at the level he played at preinjury until deep into next season. This is concerning because other than Brevard there is not one of the current DTs that possess the natural size to play the position effectively. As Phil mentioned Diaz likes to play an aggressive style of defense but imho aggressive defenses still need a big 1 tech DT to be most effective. Regardless of scheme what DC wouldn't want a DT to command a double team on most plays. In the Outback all of our DTs were pushed off the LOS way too often. So I ask...If there is no portal solution this off season are there any current OL that could fit the size requirement and actually play the 1 Tech. How about Wormley or Dawkins or Achumba? Could one of these naturally big guys make the switch? I have no idea but it's something that could be looked at this spring season.

as the OP - this is exactly what I was getting at. we do not seem to have a player on the DL roster, other than PJ (who I agree will probably take a while to get back) and Brevard (who for whatever reason didn't even play in our blowout games). We essentially do not have another pure 1-T DT on the DL roster. Again, the OL may contain someone, and that idea has been used in the past - Thorpe being the latest. I would add that the attack style DL usually have bigger LBs in the box, who are DE sized. You need beef on the LB to cover misses on the DL when they attack. You cannot have a 205# LB waiting to get run over.

 

[1000 OaksLion]

as the OP - this is exactly what I was getting at. we do not seem to have a player on the DL roster, other than PJ (who I agree will probably take a while to get back) and Brevard (who for whatever reason didn't even play in our blowout games). We essentially do not have another pure 1-T DT on the DL roster. Again, the OL may contain someone, and that idea has been used in the past - Thorpe being the latest. I would add that the attack style DL usually have bigger LBs in the box, who are DE sized. You need beef on the LB to cover misses on the DL when they attack. You cannot have a 205# LB waiting to get run over.

Jacobs, Buddin, King and Elsdon are all big enough to play Will or Mike LB. That said, Jacobs is a natural Sam and his performance at Will in the Outback was not that great. Elsdon graded fairly well at Mike in the Outback. King at 245lbs appears to be, at least physically, best suited to play Mike. Elsdon looks to be either a Mike or Will. And I suppose Buddin could play Will or Sam. The question is where does the depth come from? Someone in another thread suggested Dinkins as a possible position switch from TE to LB. He certainly has the frame at 6'4 226lbs to play in the box. He needs to add about 10lbs. He was a very good LB in high school and some schools recruited him as a LB. As the #4 TE on the depth chart it appears he'd see the field a lot more as a LB than at TE. Definitely a possible position switch candidate during spring ball.

 

[GregInPitt]

Jacobs, Buddin, King and Elsdon are all big enough to play Will or Mike LB. That said, Jacobs is a natural Sam and his performance at Will in the Outback was not that great. Elsdon graded fairly well at Mike in the Outback. King at 245lbs appears to be, at least physically, best suited to play Mike. Elsdon looks to be either a Mike or Will. And I suppose Buddin could play Will or Sam. The question is where does the depth come from? Someone in another thread suggested Dinkins as a possible position switch from TE to LB. He certainly has the frame at 6'4 226lbs to play in the box. He needs to add about 10lbs. He was a very good LB in high school and some schools recruited him as a LB. As the #4 TE on the depth chart it appears he'd see the field a lot more as a LB than at TE. Definitely a possible position switch candidate during spring ball.

Yep, LB is the position very likely to be impacted by position changes and/or Portal additions.

I read in the past that Dinkins had a higher ceiling as at LB, as he was a terror on defense in H.S. and has a Parsons type frame and athleticism. But he wanted to play TE, and maybe he's willing to wait his turn to play TE.

The other players with potential as LB's are Sutherland, who is returning to play Sam, and Talley, who could play DE or LB, along with Wylie and Carter the two 2022 class LB's that will arrive next Summer. I don't see Sutherland as the answer at Sam, but having him at Sam along with Buddin may allow the staff to move Jacobs to move to Will if the staff feels that's his best position. Especially if the staff see's a bright future for Buddin, who could move into the starting Sam spot within the first few games next Fall. But I agree with you, from what I've see Jacobs is an all-american LB at Sam, especially given his frame being somewhat smaller. But leaving Jacobs at Sam would lead to starting an inexperienced player at Will unless Franklin and Diaz can pull in a top tier Portal LB. Jacobs might be off to the NFL after next season, so leaving him there with Buddin backing him up would allow a nice transition to Buddin in 2023. Why screw up 2 positions by moving Jacobs to Will? - but that's probably not the way the staff see's it.

None of the 2022 potential LB (Carter, Wylie or Talley) are reportedly enrolling early, so it would seem that as the staff won't wait for them in solving the 2022 LB starter, there is going to be some additions or changes before or during Spring practice. Dinkins to LB? One or two Portal LB's enrolling shortly? Or even just one top tier LB with only 1 year to play transferring in after his Spring semester, with the staff being able to get him ready to start or be an "OR" option at one of the LB spot next Fall.

This is what makes college football so interesting.

 

[blion72]

Jacobs, Buddin, King and Elsdon are all big enough to play Will or Mike LB. That said, Jacobs is a natural Sam and his performance at Will in the Outback was not that great. Elsdon graded fairly well at Mike in the Outback. King at 245lbs appears to be, at least physically, best suited to play Mike. Elsdon looks to be either a Mike or Will. And I suppose Buddin could play Will or Sam. The question is where does the depth come from? Someone in another thread suggested Dinkins as a possible position switch from TE to LB. He certainly has the frame at 6'4 226lbs to play in the box. He needs to add about 10lbs. He was a very good LB in high school and some schools recruited him as a LB. As the #4 TE on the depth chart it appears he'd see the field a lot more as a LB than at TE. Definitely a possible position switch candidate during spring ball.

That sounds like a good move. Either LB or the big body WR we need. He has to put on some significant weight to be able to play TE effectively. IF possible, it would be good if we could leave Jacobs at SAM LB.