Elbow Injury/TJ Epidemic

[PooPopsBaldHead]

I recently got roped into coaching the local 15u "travel" team. The kids 13-15 didn't have anywhere to play and were just quitting so I felt obligated to do what I can. It's not pay to play $100 for uniforms and tournament fees (we will only do 3-4) but we live 100 miles from the closest McDonald's and we might have 12 kids interested in playing, so traveling down to tournaments is the only option.

Anyhow, I haven't played or been involved with competitive baseball since the 90's .. when the 17 did people start telling kids to "point the ball at 2nd base" when throwing? I was showing the old break the egg equal and opposite and they told me previous coaches were saying point the ball to second and point your elbow and tuck your glove like a chicken wing...

How I learned




How they learned




I thought well, okay maybe that's right. I tried it myself and as soon as I turned the ball, my 17ing elbow was in extreme pain. Way over rotated...

Now I'm no Bruce level former player, but I pitched for a dozen years through high school and had great coaching/camps from all over the great baseball areas I grew up in Mississippi to South Carolina to Texas to Florida... Never remember this in the 80's and early 90's.

Anyhow, I decided to look it up. There's a guy Chris O'Leary that has been screaming about this for a while and he claims on his conspiracy theorist looking website it's causing all the elbow injuries. He compares modern motions pointing the ball towards second with a bunch of guys who have ucl problems to guys that pointed the ball towards 3rd (or first for a lefty) that lasted for ions like Nolan, Maddox, Mariano Rivera, and Verlander.

Elbow Injury Due to Premature Pronation

Check out the link above. Seems a little sketchy, but I tell you if you have never tried it, grab a baseball, stand like you are going to throw the ball home, pull your arm back and twist the ball 90° towards 2nd and I bet you feel it gets really tight right where that ucl is (and in my case my outer shoulder a little too.)

So asking you youth baseball and beyond gurus... When did this become popular? Does it coincide with the last 15-20 years of elbow devastation? And now that I am coaching, why on god's green earth would I show these kids how to pitch like this:



Vs Like this:



I'm guessing velocity is logical the answer.

 

[ZombieKissinger]

I am not at all up to date on anything, but I encountered something like this for the first when I was in 9th grade in 2000. It might help with performance but it felt so awkward to me that it was the beginning of the end of my baseball career

 

[aTotal360]

It's a domino effect starting from MLB analytics. Now that the longball is "mathematically" the best way to produce offense, the junk/groundball pitchers are getting phased out.

Unfortunately, youth coaches are phasing out off-speed pitched (because it was believed to be the crux of young arm issues) and replacing that with heaters. Pitching is becoming like AAU basketball. You aren't really learning the craft as much as exploiting analytics. Because of this, pitchers are trying to overpower hitters. Hence all the walks, lack of variety of learned pitches, and home runs given up. All products of "grip it and rip it".

 

[Leeshouldveflanked]

A PT told me once that every elbow has just so many throws in it.

 

[8dog]

99.9% of instructors are going to teach that. So yes everyone that tears their UCL will throw that way. I feel like if that were really the issue that would be agreed upon at this point so it’s really correlation not causation at this point.

 

[PooPopsBaldHead]

99.9% of instructors are going to teach that. So yes everyone that tears their UCL will throw that way. I feel like if that were really the issue that would be agreed upon at this point so it’s really correlation not causation at this point.

Why are they teaching that and when did it start is the bigger question for me? Why are we rotating our elbows on every throw? When we were kids, it was pretty commonly accepted that young kids couldn't/shouldn't throw curve balls because it puts too much stress on the elbow... Turning the ball 90° away from square means every throw is putting that same stress on the elbow.

When I let go of the ball I want everything square to the target ... Hips, chest, shoulder, and arm. So we are now teaching kids to rotate their elbow an extra 90° during the motion and hoping at gets perfectly back to square at release? That's no different than twisting my golf club 90° at the top of my back swing and I cannot see how it will help accuracy in the least.

You say causation/correlation... But the reality is if they are teaching this to every kid and now elbows are blowing up faster than Kentucky meth labs when they weren't before this technique was taught, it sure seems like causation could be the correct term.

 

[Bobby Ricigliano]

Why are they teaching that and when did it start is the bigger question for me? Why are we rotating our elbows on every throw? When we were kids, it was pretty commonly accepted that young kids couldn't/shouldn't throw curve balls because it puts too much stress on the elbow... Turning the ball 90° away from square means every throw is putting that same stress on the elbow.

When I let go of the ball I want everything square to the target ... Hips, chest, shoulder, and arm. So we are now teaching kids to rotate their elbow an extra 90° during the motion and hoping at gets perfectly back to square at release? That's no different than twisting my golf club 90° at the top of my back swing and I cannot see how it will help accuracy in the least.

You say causation/correlation... But the reality is if they are teaching this to every kid and now elbows are blowing up faster than Kentucky meth labs when they weren't before this technique was taught, it sure seems like causation could be the correct term.

View attachment 545836

They were teaching that (pointing the ball 180 degrees from the intended throw direction) for general throwing at MSU baseball camps in the very early 90s.

 

[8dog]

Why are they teaching that and when did it start is the bigger question for me? Why are we rotating our elbows on every throw? When we were kids, it was pretty commonly accepted that young kids couldn't/shouldn't throw curve balls because it puts too much stress on the elbow... Turning the ball 90° away from square means every throw is putting that same stress on the elbow.

When I let go of the ball I want everything square to the target ... Hips, chest, shoulder, and arm. So we are now teaching kids to rotate their elbow an extra 90° during the motion and hoping at gets perfectly back to square at release? That's no different than twisting my golf club 90° at the top of my back swing and I cannot see how it will help accuracy in the least.

You say causation/correlation... But the reality is if they are teaching this to every kid and now elbows are blowing up faster than Kentucky meth labs when they weren't before this technique was taught, it sure seems like causation could be the correct term.

View attachment 545836

I’d say that chart more directly tracks the rise of travel ball

 

[PooPopsBaldHead]

They were teaching that (pointing the ball 180 degrees from the intended throw direction) for general throwing at MSU baseball camps in the very early 90s.

Good to know. Any reason why? I remember being taught to keep your elbow above your shoulder and fingers "on top" of the ball... Was it something as simple as to verify that maybe?



I have been trying to find when, where, why it started. It looks like early to mid 90's. This image is from a book written in 1995 apparently..



I'm not sure what the advantage is if being in that position. These guys weren't...






I have always been skeptical of the "specializing" is the cause of the injured elbows theory. I certainly think overuse is a thing, but we didn't have pitch counts in our day. We experienced overuse injuries a ton in the 80's and 90's, but it was always shoulder stuff it seemed. Elbows were always from twisting that curveball.

We played ball all year round. A lot of it was pickup, but I doubt kids today are throwing significantly more than we did... Hell I was on Tom Glavines routine when I was 14. I only took 2 months off from pitching a year. Threw "bullpens" on my homemade mound after football practice during the season and all the way to Thanksgiving.

Anyway, I hope someone on here can remember the when and why it started. If it's strictly a tiny bit of velocity or some kind of visual cue, I am not a fan of that extra 90° pronation and can see no reason why it should be taught.

 

[IBleedMaroonDawg]

It's all over my head. I guess we just taught pictures to throw in the strike zone and concentrate on hitting the edges. Our best season performance was from one pitcher who threw two different-styled fastballs and one circle change with a natural drop at the plate.

 

[Dawgbite]

Who's bringing snacks next game? That's what's important.

 

[PooPopsBaldHead]

Here we go.

Found this from "the ultimate baseball academy" on YouTube. Explains my thoughts perfectly. What's funny is the guy probably grew up playing travel ball in the last 20 years learning the "show the ball to the second baseman" technique and now is teaching kids exactly how I was thought 40 years ago with fingers on top of the ball and show it to third to protect arms.


Watch from 2:00-4:00 minute marks...

 

[Bobby Ricigliano]

Good to know. Any reason why? I remember being taught to keep your elbow above your shoulder and fingers "on top" of the ball... Was it something as simple as to verify that maybe?



I have been trying to find when, where, why it started. It looks like early to mid 90's. This image is from a book written in 1995 apparently..

View attachment 545870

I'm not sure what the advantage is if being in that position. These guys weren't...

View attachment 545871
View attachment 545873
View attachment 545874


I have always been skeptical of the "specializing" is the cause of the injured elbows theory. I certainly think overuse is a thing, but we didn't have pitch counts in our day. We experienced overuse injuries a ton in the 80's and 90's, but it was always shoulder stuff it seemed. Elbows were always from twisting that curveball.

We played ball all year round. A lot of it was pickup, but I doubt kids today are throwing significantly more than we did... Hell I was on Tom Glavines routine when I was 14. I only took 2 months off from pitching a year. Threw "bullpens" on my homemade mound after football practice during the season and all the way to Thanksgiving.

Anyway, I hope someone on here can remember the when and why it started. If it's strictly a tiny bit of velocity or some kind of visual cue, I am not a fan of that extra 90° pronation and can see no reason why it should be taught.

I don’t remember them giving a reason…probably what you suggest, if I had to guess. I remember it being odd to me.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

I don’t remember them giving a reason…probably what you suggest, if I had to guess. I remember it being odd to me.

Yep, they taught us that too in the early 90s, probably same camps you were at. I remember it feeling weird too, had never seen that before then.

 

[Bobby Ricigliano]

Yep, they taught us that too in the early 90s, probably same camps you were at. I remember it feeling weird too, had never seen that before then.

I distinctly remember it being out in a field east of the Dude, probably about where that lake is now.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

All about the velocity. Unnatural velocity. To make it you have to throw harder, yada yada. And velocity DOES matter, so it’s played out in reality when it comes to development.



Pedro knew about this sort of thing 10 years ago.

And of course, pitching more and more games have aided and abetted it too. It’s the sum of all the parts, that equals the TJ epidemic.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

I distinctly remember it being out in a field east of the Dude, probably about where that lake is now.

Yep somewhere over there between there and Evans (where we stayed). I think it’s where Sanderson and the ticket office is now.

Do you remember Coach Gage?

 

[grinningmule]

It probably came from some genius who though preloading tension on the tendons would help increase velocity upon release. Same sort of geniuses who have completely destroyed the field of strength & conditioning.

 

[Bobby Ricigliano]

Yep somewhere over there between there and Evans (where we stayed). I think it’s where Sanderson and the ticket office is now.

Do you remember Coach Gage?

Doesn’t ring a bell…but I only really remember Coach Polk & a pitcher leaving after he got drafted (Chris George?) as far as specific coaches/staff go.

 

[CochiseCowbell]

They were teaching that (pointing the ball 180 degrees from the intended throw direction) for general throwing at MSU baseball camps in the very early 90s.

State baseball camp is exactly where I first learned it: break the egg, point the elbow, ball facing away, hit the midget in the head with your elbow as you step, follow through with the other leg.

I've not coached much, but the few times I have it's before they are pitching, so I taught this method to them & to my stepson when he was still playing.

I always thought this was simply for improving accuracy & mechanics at an early age for muscle memory. Never even imagined they were using it for pitching.

 

[kired]

That’s what our coach taught in late 90s. We focused on it during drills

 

[PooPopsBaldHead]

State baseball camp is exactly where I first learned it: break the egg, point the elbow, ball facing away, hit the midget in the head with your elbow as you step, follow through with the other leg.

I've not coached much, but the few times I have it's before they are pitching, so I taught this method to them & to my stepson when he was still playing.

I always thought this was simply for improving accuracy & mechanics at an early age for muscle memory. Never even imagined they were using it for pitching.

Yes. I think it's a tool for little kids to get those mechanical reminders... Particularly dropping the elbow when throwing.

But for pitching, sheesh. The amount of timing it would take for this kid to get his arm square at release pitch after pitch is amazing... It's like teaching Jim Furyk's golf swing to a kid.



If you start with it pointed towards center field, it's over rotated 90° with your core. So with the million other lower body and arm timing issues to throw accurately, now you have to worry about getting your forearm turned perfectly at release.

At what benefit 1-2 mph for a pro? No thanks.

We are doing some stupid shìt to these kids if this is happening on the regular.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

We are doing some stupid shìt to these kids if this is happening on the regular.

I’m glad you are involved with it now, because the more you are, you’ll see how true your statement really is. I’ve NEVER seen anything that makes people more stupid than baseball. Maybe it’s because most kids can do a few things and see a little success? That makes people get all wrapped up in the vortex. And you have to get out there, coach, have played, etc to really see this shlt for what it is. This sport makes friends into enemies on the daily.

And what bothers me is it’s killing baseball. The non-developmental tournaments, the status, everything. It’s my favorite sport, but it’s declining in popularity on the whole. However it’s skyrocketing in popularity among a few. But that equation doesn’t create fans - it actually creates animosity. And most players, when they are done with it, are done forever. MLB realizes this, but haven’t been able to solve it. But you can see that they are looking into foreign solutions, because the American talent pool is watered down and littered with injuries. I’m just glad MSU got that natty, before I either die or just let go of it altogether.

At the end of the day, whatever, some posters will say muh goat and blah blah. But those guys are not involved with the sport, obviously.

 

[PooPopsBaldHead]

I’d say that chart more directly tracks the rise of travel ball

The type of travel ball that costs a lot of money and where coaches are teaching every kid by the same blueprint even if they don't know why? What a freaking mess that is..

 

[PooPopsBaldHead]

It probably came from some genius who though preloading tension on the tendons would help increase velocity upon release. Same sort of geniuses who have completely destroyed the field of strength & conditioning.

I promise you the first time I tried it my elbow and shoulder were in all sorts of tension... But in full disclosure, when I reach back to wipe my åss I nearly pass out from the pain in my shoulder.***

You're an exercise science guy... If I'm throwing a curve ball and start with my arm pronated at its effective maximum range then sling it forward as hard as I can while simultaneously supinating it to its maximum range, would that put more stress on the old elbow tendons than just leaving it neutral the entire time and throwing a fastball? Sure seems like it would.

 

[PooPopsBaldHead]

I’m glad you are involved with it now, because the more you are, you’ll see how true your statement really is. I’ve NEVER seen anything that makes people more stupid than baseball. Maybe it’s because most kids can do a few things and see a little success? That makes people get all wrapped up in the vortex. And you have to get out there, coach, have played, etc to really see this shlt for what it is. This sport makes friends into enemies on the daily.

And what bothers me is it’s killing baseball. The non-developmental tournaments, the status, everything. It’s my favorite sport, but it’s declining in popularity on the whole. However it’s skyrocketing in popularity among a few. But that equation doesn’t create fans - it actually creates animosity. And most players, when they are done with it, are done forever. MLB realizes this, but haven’t been able to solve it. But you can see that they are looking into foreign solutions, because the American talent pool is watered down and littered with injuries. I’m just glad MSU got that natty, before I either die or just let go of it altogether.

At the end of the day, whatever, some posters will say muh goat and blah blah. But those guys are not involved with the sport, obviously.

I'm lucky enough to not be in a place where it's crazy like it is in the Sunbelt states. It was absolutely disgusting in Dallas. My kids are younger (most have my friends have kids 13-23, mine are 6-10), so my oldest was going to play his first year of coach pitch when COVID wiped out the season and we moved to the mountains. But the 5-6 years before then, my friends with kids 8-14 playing baseball basically became panhandlers asking us to sponsor their kids or buy $100 raffle tickets to raise money.

That lifestyle was why we moved, cause 17 that constant tournament crap every weekend and when you have more than one, they get split up and mom goes here with Timmy and Dad goes there with Tommy. No thanks. As much as I love baseball, there's way more to life.

 

[greenbean.sixpack]

I think you're overlooking the most important thing about travel ball, the kid's names. If you have a lot of boys with names like Brax, Jaxxon, Hunter, Mayson, Peyton and Logan, you're winning a ring at the U4 World Series in Destin.

 

[CochiseCowbell]

You're an exercise science guy... If I'm throwing a curve ball and start with my arm pronated at its effective maximum range then sling it forward as hard as I can while simultaneously supinating it to its maximum range, would that put more stress on the old elbow tendons than just leaving it neutral the entire time and throwing a fastball? Sure seems like it would.

I never pitched & never wanted to. Dad tried tutoring me into one in middle school I think. He did so honestly, for he was one. I grew bored of it quickly. I played through high school mostly as a C, 1B, 3B, DH, & damn RF. I reached my peak Soph year. My slow a$$ mid infield days were over.

So, I can't speak to pitching mechanics, but it seems like no one is teaching how to pitch/think/set up batters. Seems like they're being taught to throw.

I kinda hate to say this, but it's true, I was not looking forward to travel ball & all its nonsense for my boy. I won't have to worry about that for he has a 3rd T21 chromosome, i.e. Down Syndrome.

I dodged that bullet in a way & I can't wait to coach his teams for the love of the game. And his old man will cut him no slack.

TL : DR I know nothing about pitching. Puberty made me slow. My atypical son excuses me from travel ball nightmare.

 

[PooPopsBaldHead]

I think you're overlooking the most important thing about travel ball, the kid's names. If you have a lot of boys with names like Brax, Jaxxon, Hunter, Mayson, Peyton and Logan, you're winning a ring at the U4 World Series in Destin.

My boys are named Chuck and Steak.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

My boys are named Chuck and Steak.

Does that one up Topher?? Ryker??? I’m not so sure

 

[HumpDawgy]

This is obviously why I sucked at pitching. I was always taught to point the ball at the batter's head.

 

[seshomoru]

I’d say that chart more directly tracks the rise of travel ball

Where they try to turn a kid into an awesome 12 year old pitcher instead of developing skills to become a good 18 year old pitcher. God help the kid who doesn't snap off the perfect curve and his daddy is the coach.

 

[dawgstudent]

I was talking to a friend of mine at work and he made a good point with baseball...

Football - you have to have some size and/or speed to really excel at it.
Basketball - you have to be tall/jump in 95% of the cases which eliminates a good number.
Baseball - you can be short/fat/tall/skinny. The pros have a mix of it all. That's why parents keep throwing $$$ at the sport. Little Johnny is not limited on his physical stature as much as other sports.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

I was talking to a friend of mine at work and he made a good point with baseball...

Football - you have to have some size and/or speed to really excel at it.
Basketball - you have to be tall/jump in 95% of the cases which eliminates a good number.
Baseball - you can be short/fat/tall/skinny. The pros have a mix of it all. That's why parents keep throwing $$$ at the sport. Little Johnny is not limited on his physical stature as much as other sports.

Correct.

And further, they go all-in on the year round part, whether that's lessons or whatever. What they don't do at the youth and middle school ages, is play other sports, to maintain athleticism. Football/basketball/soccer help baseball, but baseball does not help football/basketball/soccer, as far as that goes. And then by the time they are in high school and they notice recruiters talking about athleticism, they are forced to go pay trainers to help develop it.

Year round baseball playing/training is the worst trap of this whole deal. At minimum, we need to do it like the Dominicans do, where it's basically just a year round practice, where they are constantly moving. But parents don't like practice, they want either that premium one on one instruction, or the entertainment/drama of the games.

 

[cowbell88]

I think you're overlooking the most important thing about travel ball, the kid's names. If you have a lot of boys with names like Brax, Jaxxon, Hunter, Mayson, Peyton and Logan, you're winning a ring at the U4 World Series in Destin.

Well in 21, we had a few Logan’s and Tanner’s

 

[bsquared24]

While the point at 2nd base idea probably doesn't help I think a bigger cause is travel ball and specialization. Reps are great for hitters, but when kids stop being multi-sport kids (which when you travel ball 10 months of the year happens to most of them) they lose using ligaments in different ways, losing the flexibility that is created from basketball, football, running, don't give repair time to ligaments that may be slightly injured (maybe even to a point a kid doesn't know but it heals itself and is stronger the next season). I've also been suspect of weight-lifting effects on pitchers as weight-lifting puts an unnatural strain on these tiny (comparatively) ligaments. I see how lower body muscle is good for pitchers but how many kids are going to go in a weight room and only do legs and not try and build some guns? I do also think that the fact that fast 30 years ago was 93-95 and now it is 100-103 has something to do with it. That is like a 10% increase in velocity and with regards to strain probably needs some multiplier to understand effect (one of you engineers is probably better versed in that than I am).

 

[Herbert Nenninger]

I think you're overlooking the most important thing about travel ball, the kid's names. If you have a lot of boys with names like Brax, Jaxxon, Hunter, Mayson, Peyton and Logan, you're winning a ring at the U4 World Series in Destin.

Just got my 6yo rec league roster. Got 2 Bo’s and a Beau. I’m liking our odds already.

 

[Pilgrimdawg]

Back when my kids were growing up I coached them in rec ball at the local park for 13 total years. We had a good time, won a lot of games, and taught the kids as much as we could about the game. With that being the background, current rec ball leagues around here are horrible at best. Also not the safest environment for the family anymore. My son is now coaching his son, which makes me very happy to see that the acorn fell not far from the tree. They are currently playing 7U coach pitch travel ball and, good or bad, if they want any chance of playing later on it’s about the only option. At least around here. I can’t speak for other places but I can say that the level of play I see from some these 7 year old players is shocking compared to rec ball. Of course they play and practice a good part of the year but wow. Those little first grade boys are making plays that my old 11-12 year old teams used to struggle with. Most likely those kids still playing rec ball will never catch up with their classmates playing travel ball. That’s just the way it is from my perspective. It’s a shame that this is what you have to do nowadays to play good ball in a safe environment but that’s unfortunately the world we live in. Again, this is just my perspective of our local situation, if you live elsewhere your mileage may vary.

 

[dawgstudent]

Where do you live?

 

[Pilgrimdawg]

Where do you live?

Columbus. I should also say that we are opening a brand new park out west of town a few miles that hopefully will provide a much better environment for the kids going forward.