FC/OT: Dartmouth to eliminate federal student loan awards for undergrads…

[Midnighter]

Dartmouth Eliminates Student Loans for Undergraduates

Relief for middle-income families caps a historic year of financial aid achievements

calltolead.dartmouth.edu

Speaking to several hundred alumni attending Reunions, President Philip J. Hanlon ’77 announced that Dartmouth is removing all federal and institutional loans from its undergraduate financial aid awards and replacing them with expanded scholarship grants. This historic change in the College’s financial aid policy will take place beginning with the 2022 summer term, which starts June 23.

Now @BobPSU92 - what does Neeli say to this?

 

[s1uggo72]

About time.

 

[psuro]

Dartmouth Eliminates Student Loans for Undergraduates

Relief for middle-income families caps a historic year of financial aid achievements

calltolead.dartmouth.edu

Speaking to several hundred alumni attending Reunions, President Philip J. Hanlon ’77 announced that Dartmouth is removing all federal and institutional loans from its undergraduate financial aid awards and replacing them with expanded scholarship grants. This historic change in the College’s financial aid policy will take place beginning with the 2022 summer term, which starts June 23.

Now @BobPSU92 - what does Neeli say to this?

What is the difference in the endowments between the two Universities?

 

[BobPSU92]

Dartmouth Eliminates Student Loans for Undergraduates

Relief for middle-income families caps a historic year of financial aid achievements

calltolead.dartmouth.edu

Speaking to several hundred alumni attending Reunions, President Philip J. Hanlon ’77 announced that Dartmouth is removing all federal and institutional loans from its undergraduate financial aid awards and replacing them with expanded scholarship grants. This historic change in the College’s financial aid policy will take place beginning with the 2022 summer term, which starts June 23.

Now @BobPSU92 - what does Neeli say to this?

Neeli continues to laugh at Dartmouth.

 

[BobPSU92]

What is the difference in the endowments between the two Universities?

We are…not well-endowed.

 

[step.eng69]

We are…not well-endowed.

You're correct. Dambly and Lupert's aggregate total is equal to 4 inches....
No, we are not well endowed.

 

[Midnighter]

What is the difference in the endowments between the two Universities?

Probably sizable, but article specifically mentions $120mm in recent donations earmarked for scholarships.

 

[PSUFTG]

Dartmouth Eliminates Student Loans for Undergraduates

Relief for middle-income families caps a historic year of financial aid achievements

calltolead.dartmouth.edu

Speaking to several hundred alumni attending Reunions, President Philip J. Hanlon ’77 announced that Dartmouth is removing all federal and institutional loans from its undergraduate financial aid awards and replacing them with expanded scholarship grants. This historic change in the College’s financial aid policy will take place beginning with the 2022 summer term, which starts June 23.

Now @BobPSU92 - what does Neeli say to this?

FWIW: That (bagging Fed Student Loans in their aid packages) is basically meaningless. [EDIT: From DARTMOUTH'S side of the table - thanks to Midnighter for pointing that out]

Dartmouth provides full scholarships to basically every student who doesn't come from a wealthy family. That is about $70-80.000 per year - so having a couple thousand guised as "Fed Student Loans" (as opposed to 100% University scholarship) is rather a non-issue.
Those who do come from wealthy families (maybe 40% or so of their 5,000-ish student body) certainly don't need to take Fed Student Loans (which wouldn't amount to more than rounding error of the sticker price for Dartmouth tuition)

As to Dartmouth's endowment value - about the same as PSU (maybe a tad higher). Of course, it is a MUCH smaller school - and they spend a hell of a lot more of the endowment per year (in both real and relative terms - about 3 times as much $ for $) on scholarships and grants. They also typically earn significantly higher investment returns (11% higher than PSU just last year - amounting to the better part of $1 billion of "free money" just by managing their assets better than PSU manages their's).

Just another reminder of the stunning costs involved in Penn State's fiscal mismanagement, for the people who care about such things (added that specifically for Bob - so as not to disappoint him )

Endowment Growth Supports the Dartmouth Community | Dartmouth

 

[BobPSU92]

FWIW: That (bagging Fed Student Loans in their aid packages) is basically meaningless.

Dartmouth provides full scholarships to basically every student who doesn't come from a wealthy family. That is about $70-80.000 per year - so having a couple thousand guised as "Fed Student Loans" (as opposed to 100% University scholarship) is rather a non-issue.
Those who do come from wealthy families (maybe 40% or so of their 5,000-ish student body) certainly don't need to take Fed Student Loans (which wouldn't amount to more than rounding error of the sticker price for Dartmouth tuition)

As to Dartmouth's endowment value - about the same as PSU (maybe a tad higher). Of course, it is a MUCH smaller school - and they spend a hell of a lot more of the endowment per year (in both real and relative terms - about 3 times as much $ for $) on scholarships and grants. They also typically earn significantly higher investment returns (12% higher than PSU just last year - amounting to the better part of $1 billion of "free money" just by managing their assets better than PSU manages their's).

Endowment Growth Supports the Dartmouth Community | Dartmouth

But Dartmouth sucks at football, whereas we are

 

[manatree]

It’s just not the amount of endowments that a school has, it’s what the endowments were designated for by the donors.

 

[Moogy]

As to Dartmouth's endowment value - about the same as PSU (maybe a tad higher).

If by "about the same" and "a tad higher" you mean over twice as large, you nailed it. PSU's endowment value was $3.4B in 2020, and Dartmouth's was $8.5B in 2021. You probably tried to convince your wife that you and Lexington Steele are "about the same." Numbers are hard.

 

[Midnighter]

FWIW: That (bagging Fed Student Loans in their aid packages) is basically meaningless.

Dartmouth provides full scholarships to basically every student who doesn't come from a wealthy family. That is about $70-80.000 per year - so having a couple thousand guised as "Fed Student Loans" (as opposed to 100% University scholarship) is rather a non-issue.
Those who do come from wealthy families (maybe 40% or so of their 5,000-ish student body) certainly don't need to take Fed Student Loans (which wouldn't amount to more than rounding error of the sticker price for Dartmouth tuition)

As to Dartmouth's endowment value - about the same as PSU (maybe a tad higher). Of course, it is a MUCH smaller school - and they spend a hell of a lot more of the endowment per year (in both real and relative terms - about 3 times as much $ for $) on scholarships and grants. They also typically earn significantly higher investment returns (11% higher than PSU just last year - amounting to the better part of $1 billion of "free money" just by managing their assets better than PSU manages their's).

Just another reminder of the stunning costs involved in Penn State's fiscal mismanagement, for the people who care about such things (added that specifically for Bob - so as not to disappoint him )

Endowment Growth Supports the Dartmouth Community | Dartmouth

Well, I don’t think it was ever implied this would benefit thousands of students - rather, it’s nice to see a university put its wealth to good use for those (hundreds) of students who will benefit. Dartmouth didn’t have to do this.

Currently, Dartmouth undergraduates from families with annual income of $125,000 or less who possess typical assets are offered need-based aid without a required loan component. Dartmouth is now removing the loan requirement for undergraduates from families with annual income of more than $125,000 who receive need-based financial aid. This will decrease the debt burden for hundreds of middle-income Dartmouth students and their families by an average of $22,000 over four years. This in turn will open opportunities for young graduates to consider career opportunities or advanced degrees that they might not otherwise have been able to pursue.

Quick Google search puts Dartmouth’s endowment at $8.5bn to PSU’s $4.4bn.

 

[Reno Hightower]

As to Dartmouth's endowment value - about the same as PSU (maybe a tad higher). Of course, it is a MUCH smaller school - and they spend a hell of a lot more of the endowment per year (in both real and relative terms - about 3 times as much $ for $) on scholarships and grants. They also typically earn significantly higher investment returns (11% higher than PSU just last year - amounting to the better part of $1 billion of "free money" just by managing their assets better than PSU manages their's).

So in summary, not only is Dartmouth more well endowed than us, they also know how to use it better.

 

[EricStratton-RushChairman]

We are…not well-endowed.

We don’t bottom out but we’re hell on the sides

 

[PSUFTG]

Well, I don’t think it was ever implied this would benefit thousands of students - rather, it’s nice to see a university put its wealth to good use for those (hundreds) of students who will benefit. Dartmouth didn’t have to do this.

Currently, Dartmouth undergraduates from families with annual income of $125,000 or less who possess typical assets are offered need-based aid without a required loan component. Dartmouth is now removing the loan requirement for undergraduates from families with annual income of more than $125,000 who receive need-based financial aid. This will decrease the debt burden for hundreds of middle-income Dartmouth students and their families by an average of $22,000 over four years. This in turn will open opportunities for young graduates to consider career opportunities or advanced degrees that they might not otherwise have been able to pursue.

Quick Google search puts Dartmouth’s endowment at $8.5bn to PSU’s $4.4bn.

Oh, no doubt, it is a "nice thing for Dartmouth to do" - and it makes a meaningful difference for the students affected, no doubt.

My point was that it wasn't a "big deal" from the standpoint of the DARTMOUTH side of the equation, based on what Dartmouth was already doing. ie If they are providing $75,000 worth of grant (which is about what the typical grant is), does it affect Dartmouth's bottom line much if it is $72,000 or grant + $3,000 of FSL, vs just making it all $75,000 of grant? (Rounding error, in this case)

 

[PSUFTG]

It’s just not the amount of endowments that a school has, it’s what the endowments were designated for by the donors.

That sounds an AWFUL lot like the types of comments one hears from PSU Trustees and Administration - but it really isn't (much) true (Money is, indeed, fungible - one of the rare accurate statements from Rodney Erickson's tenure )

 

[Moogy]

That sounds an AWFUL lot like the types of comments one hears from PSU Trustees and Administration - but it really isn't (much) true (Money is, indeed, fungible - one of the rare accurate statements from Rodney Erickson's tenure )

Wait a minute ... did you, posting under a pseudonym, promoting yourself for election, actually get elected to the BoT ... and you don't have a clue about the relative endowment size of universities (and he works with people's money)?!?

Yeah, PSU has gone to hell. Holy crap. I'm a proud alumnus, but my kids certainly aren't going there ... at least until folks can make better decisions and not elect a guy like this to the BoT. Wow. Embarrassing.

 

[91Joe95]

Wait a minute ... did you, posting under a pseudonym, promoting yourself for election, actually get elected to the BoT ... and you don't have a clue about the relative endowment size of universities (and he works with people's money)?!?

Yeah, PSU has gone to hell. Holy crap. I'm a proud alumnus, but my kids certainly aren't going there ... at least until folks can make better decisions and not elect a guy like this to the BoT. Wow. Embarrassing.

Are you really acting like you weren't the putz who appropriated his name and pretended you were him?

 

[91Joe95]

Dartmouth Eliminates Student Loans for Undergraduates

Relief for middle-income families caps a historic year of financial aid achievements

calltolead.dartmouth.edu

Speaking to several hundred alumni attending Reunions, President Philip J. Hanlon ’77 announced that Dartmouth is removing all federal and institutional loans from its undergraduate financial aid awards and replacing them with expanded scholarship grants. This historic change in the College’s financial aid policy will take place beginning with the 2022 summer term, which starts June 23.

Now @BobPSU92 - what does Neeli say to this?

Hopefully they can still get the loans if they want, after all it's free money if they're responsible. Take the money, invest it, and pay it back shortly after graduation while keeping the gains. Heck, maybe even win the lottery and get the loans erased.

 

[Lionville]

Dartmouth Eliminates Student Loans for Undergraduates

Relief for middle-income families caps a historic year of financial aid achievements

calltolead.dartmouth.edu

Speaking to several hundred alumni attending Reunions, President Philip J. Hanlon ’77 announced that Dartmouth is removing all federal and institutional loans from its undergraduate financial aid awards and replacing them with expanded scholarship grants. This historic change in the College’s financial aid policy will take place beginning with the 2022 summer term, which starts June 23.

Now @BobPSU92 - what does Neeli say to this?

Damm. Where was this 15 years ago
When my son was at Dartmouth.

 

[GrimReaper]

Hopefully they can still get the loans if they want, after all it's free money if they're responsible. Take the money, invest it, and pay it back shortly after graduation while keeping the gains. Heck, maybe even win the lottery and get the loans erased.

Great idea, but can't do it. Qualification for federal loans is done throught the school's financial aid office and if they're not doing it..... There would also be this minor problem of total aid (all other sources have to be shown) on the application being greater that the cost of attendance.

 

[Moogy]

Are you really acting like you weren't the putz who appropriated his name and pretended you were him?

Wut? Appropriated whose name? Where? For what purpose? I have to hear this craziness ...

 

[manatree]

That sounds an AWFUL lot like the types of comments one hears from PSU Trustees and Administration - but it really isn't (much) true (Money is, indeed, fungible - one of the rare accurate statements from Rodney Erickson's tenure )

So now that you are part of the administration, are you going to have the guts to go and tell the donors that their endowment money is going to be used for a different, more important purpose? "I'm sorry Mr. Lubrano, but that money you gave to endow the Men's Hockey program is going to be used for student aid." Have fungible with that.

 

[GrimReaper]

So now that you are part of the administration, are you going to have the guts to go and tell the donors that their endowment money is going to be used for a different, more important purpose? "I'm sorry Mr. Lubrano, but that money you gave to endow the Men's Hockey program is going to be used for student aid." Have fungible with that.

But that's the way it works and the donor is unlikely to ever figure out where the money went unless it funds something tangible.

 

[PSU Mike]

But that's the way it works and the donor is unlikely to ever figure out where the money went unless it funds something tangible.

Or in our case we can just safely assume it went to CJF’s contract obligations at the rate of $1MM per victory.

 

[GrimReaper]

Or in our case we can just safely assume it went to CJF’s contract obligations at the rate of $1MM per victory.

There is actually an endowment that partially underwrites the head coach's salary, but it only provides a small fraction of what Franklin makes, more like the first quarter of one of those victories.

 

[PSUFTG]

So now that you are part of the administration, are you going to have the guts to go and tell the donors that their endowment money is going to be used for a different, more important purpose? "I'm sorry Mr. Lubrano, but that money you gave to endow the Men's Hockey program is going to be used for student aid." Have fungible with that.

That's not how "fungible" works. (And I am not part of administration, FWIW)

 

[manatree]

It’s just not the amount of endowments that a school has, it’s what the endowments were designated for by the donors.

That sounds an AWFUL lot like the types of comments one hears from PSU Trustees and Administration - but it really isn't (much) true (Money is, indeed, fungible - one of the rare accurate statements from Rodney Erickson's tenure )

So now that you are part of the administration, are you going to have the guts to go and tell the donors that their endowment money is going to be used for a different, more important purpose? "I'm sorry Mr. Lubrano, but that money you gave to endow the Men's Hockey program is going to be used for student aid." Have fungible with that.

That's not how "fungible" works. (And I am not part of administration, FWIW)

I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I can't seem to follow your comments here. First you said/implied that it doesn't matter what the University uses earmarked endowments on, then you said it does. Whether you like it or not, the BoT is part of the PSU administrative team.

 

[91Joe95]

I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I can't seem to follow your comments here. First you said/implied that it doesn't matter what the University uses earmarked endowments on, then you said it does. Whether you like it or not, the BoT is part of the PSU administrative team.

Fungible doesn't mean using the money for something it wasn't designated for, it means reducing the amount of money that would normally go to that item and using it somewhere else.

 

[91Joe95]

Great idea, but can't do it. Qualification for federal loans is done throught the school's financial aid office and if they're not doing it..... There would also be this minor problem of total aid (all other sources have to be shown) on the application being greater that the cost of attendance.

Are you sure? Students can take out loans greater than the cost of attendance.

 

[manatree]

Fungible doesn't mean using the money for something it wasn't designated for, it means reducing the amount of money that would normally go to that item and using it somewhere else.

You'd make a great politician. If you take any money from Endowment A and use it towards B, you are using that money for something it wasn't designated for.

 

[PSUFTG]

First you said/implied that it doesn't matter what the University uses earmarked endowments on, then you said it does.

I neither said nor implied either of those things, FWIW. I only explained one of the aspects wrt how Endowments can impact a University's (or any other entity's) fiscal management - as have a couple of other posters. Enough about that, I doubt many find it interesting (nor should they, I suppose).

 

[91Joe95]

You'd make a great politician. If you take any money from Endowment A and use it towards B, you are using that money for something it wasn't designated for.

You misunderstand. Let's say books cost $1000. PSU would normally offer $200 in aid towards that (lol) to a student. Someone puts an endowment of $200 towards books. PSU offers that endowment, and then reduces the amount they would offer by $200 to that student. Student still gets $200 towards books, the terms of the endowment are met, and PSU now has $200 to use on something else.

 

[BobPSU92]

Or in our case we can just safely assume it went to CJF’s contract obligations at the rate of $1MM per victory.

Wisest investment Sandy made during her tenure.

 

[PSU Mike]

Wisest investment Sandy made during THE WANING MOMENTS OF her tenure.

fixt.

 

[northwoods]

Damm. Where was this 15 years ago
When my son was at Dartmouth.

I still have my rejection letter from Dartmouth. It was always my dream college.

 

[GrimReaper]

Are you sure? Students can take out loans greater than the cost of attendance.

Federal loans can only be arranged through a school's financial aid office. So if an applicant has cost of attendance fully met by grants-in-aid, the financial aid office won't apply for federal loans or any application will be rejected almost immediately. Students in this situation can receive Pell Grants that would put them over cost of attendance, but that's a fish of a different color.

.However, students can apply for private loans on their own. These can go as high as the student can find willing lenders.

 

[Moogy]

Fungible doesn't mean using the money for something it wasn't designated for, it means reducing the amount of money that would normally go to that item and using it somewhere else.

Yes, of course. If you receive outside funding for something, you can then spend your existing resources that would have been spent on that something, on something else instead. What's your point?

 

[Thorndike2021]

This could be the thing that puts our recruiting in Western New Hampshire over the top!

 

[Lionville]

I still have my rejection letter from Dartmouth. It was always my dream college.

My son loved it. Except for those 5 AM walks to baseball practice when it was 20 below outside.