Film Study: Penn St Run D vs. Michigan

[CaliLion79]

PSU D vs. MICH FILM STUDY


...or lack thereof. See Link. Really enlightening video. One of his best imo. Shows that all the leaks in the run game were due to more than just getting bullied up front, or that our d-linemen are small and need to bulk up like Franklin suggested. Coach really lays out how Michigan outcoached and outschemed Franklin & Diaz and how ill-prepared our LBs were to handle Michigan's run game wrinkles. Really bad look, especially coming out of a bye.

 

[rudedude]

PSU D vs. MICH FILM STUDY


...or lack thereof. See Link. Really enlightening video. One of his best imo. Shows that all the leaks in the run game were due to more than just getting bullied up front, or that our d-linemen are small and need to bulk up like Franklin suggested. Coach really lays out how Michigan outcoached and outschemed Franklin & Diaz and how ill-prepared our LBs were to handle Michigan's run game wrinkles. Really bad look, especially coming out of a bye.

It appears we never had enough guys in the box. Illinois gave the blueprint for that last year. 4-2-5 does not work well vs that kind of offense.

 

[Ram20]

It appears we never had enough guys in the box. Illinois gave the blueprint for that last year. 4-2-5 does not work well vs that kind of offense.

I think you're right, and since we predominantly recruit DB's on defense it makes sense why we would want to play 4-2-5, but it's just not going to work against the physicality at the line when you play a team like Illinois or Michigan. We need some big d lineman, tough linebackers, and it appears we needed to put more of them on the field at once in a a different defensive formation to counteract this run heavy offense.

 

[Midnighter]

PSU D vs. MICH FILM STUDY


...or lack thereof. See Link. Really enlightening video. One of his best imo. Shows that all the leaks in the run game were due to more than just getting bullied up front, or that our d-linemen are small and need to bulk up like Franklin suggested. Coach really lays out how Michigan outcoached and outschemed Franklin & Diaz and how ill-prepared our LBs were to handle Michigan's run game wrinkles. Really bad look, especially coming out of a bye.

Gonna have to clean that up.

 

[VaDave4PSU]

LBs are just poor LBs. They don't fill gaps quick enough. They tend to fill the wrong gap. When they finally get those 2 right, they are then poor tacklers.

DL was very poor at winning their battles. On those pin and pulls, we didn't win a single gap playside. Inside zone, Corum vs Elsdon and our guy got beat every time while the DL got shoved wherever.

Let's see how we respond to Minnesota. If we are back in the exact same 4-2-5, Ibrahim will be 20 for 130.

 

[rudedude]

The thing that really puzzles me is why no attempt at adjustment? We had a freaking bye week to install some changes that may have helped. A little too arrogant perhaps that we would be able to handle it? I guess no lesson learned from Illinois last year. I am a Bills fan and they play a similar defense but this year they finally got some space eaters on the DL and it frees up their athletic LB’s to make plays. We have no space eaters other than PJ and the LB play vs Michigan was horrid.

 

[nittanyfan333]

Gonna have to clean that up.

obviously

 

[razpsu]

It appears we never had enough guys in the box. Illinois gave the blueprint for that last year. 4-2-5 does not work well vs that kind of offense.

We said that going into the season. But Franklin doesn’t listen to us. Someone said he wants to be like Miami. Well this ain’t the acc.

 

[FTLPSU]

6 vs 4 at the Line every snap...SMH simple numbers game.....

This was the adjustments lack there of we didnt make....wasted guys in the secondary

 

[OuiRPSU]

Let’s cut him some slack. Remember, he’s had to deal with the sanctions. And BOB didn’t recruit enough lineman (like 9 years ago). And our D is a wee bit small. Oh, and it rained in that one game…

 

[PSU87]

We said that going into the season. But Franklin doesn’t listen to us. Someone said he wants to be like Miami. Well this ain’t the acc.

I'm not saying it works in the Big Ten, but Miami won National Championships by beating darn near anyone with that model long before they were in the ACC.

Would that scheme work with better linebackers? I don't know.

 

[donaldfair71]

6 vs 4 at the Line every snap...SMH simple numbers game.....

This was the adjustments lack there of we didnt make....wasted guys in the secondary

Agree with the secondary part here.

I posted elsewhere I don't know why they thought 2 safeties at 10 plus 2 cover downs that wide was necessary. It just gave the box guys very little room for error. At some point, you can really help your box guys out if you ask the corners to be physical and better to be honest. They lined up with A TON of respect for the quick game from Michigan. I mean they lined up like one would against an Air Raid team that you didn't think wanted to run the ball at all unless forced.

 

[razpsu]

I'm not saying it works in the Big Ten, but Miami won National Championships by beating darn near anyone with that model long before they were in the ACC.

Would that scheme work with better linebackers? I don't know.

When we played them in the 80’s they had big defensive lineman and linebackers!! They were in the cruddy big east in 1991 then in 2004 acc.

 

[Meat Lab]

PSU D vs. MICH FILM STUDY


...or lack thereof. See Link. Really enlightening video. One of his best imo. Shows that all the leaks in the run game were due to more than just getting bullied up front, or that our d-linemen are small and need to bulk up like Franklin suggested. Coach really lays out how Michigan outcoached and outschemed Franklin & Diaz and how ill-prepared our LBs were to handle Michigan's run game wrinkles. Really bad look, especially coming out of a bye.

How difficult is it to make in game adjustments? Not a rhetorical.

 

[s1uggo72]

How difficult is it to make in game adjustments? Not a rhetorical.

most times you can only eliminate things that are not working. Adding things you havent practiced can be a disaster

 

[s1uggo72]

It appears we never had enough guys in the box. Illinois gave the blueprint for that last year. 4-2-5 does not work well vs that kind of offense.

a couple of things
1) if you 1 gap things (as PSU does) it can be difficult. Many 4-2-5 teams 2 gap the front
2) you have to cross train the ILBers to be OLBers as well. So when they go to a heavy front, the D has to match, take one DB out for every fat guy they bring in, so your 4-2-5 may look like a 4-4-3 if bring in a TE and FB. Match personnel.

 

[West Coast Nit]

obviously

Appreciate the opportunity

 

[Madsol]

Ok, I am not an Xs and Os guy so maybe this makes no sense. But why isn't it as simple as playing man on any eligible receiver and the rest of the defense is at or near the line of scrimmage? Someone please help me understand why that is not doable.

 

[Woodpecker]

Ok, I am not an Xs and Os guy so maybe this makes no sense. But why isn't it as simple as playing man on any eligible receiver and the rest of the defense is at or near the line of scrimmage? Someone please help me understand why that is not doable.

If you run straight man, pick rub routes will open up some big passing plays on short throws. It takes really good DBs and really good communication to pull it off.

 

[s1uggo72]

Ok, I am not an Xs and Os guy so maybe this makes no sense. But why isn't it as simple as playing man on any eligible receiver and the rest of the defense is at or near the line of scrimmage? Someone please help me understand why that is not doable.

there are 5 eligible receivers, not including the QB. Now do you want to include the QB? If you dont include the QB , you end up with Sean Clifford running down the field untouched for 60 yds.
So how do you want to play? (its an age old football question)
so now we are man to man across the board. so if you let one guy beat another guy deep and they hit a deep pass, then what?
if you take all the outside guys inside, and maybe causing traffic and a pick? like in basketball, bring the inside guys outside, you have a wide open receiver or 2.

There's lots to unpack in your question.

 

[PSU73]

I think this will all come out when the metrics are available.
Maybe this guy who does these things could send a link to the football staff.

 

[s1uggo72]

I think this will all come out when the metrics are available.
Maybe this guy who does these things could send a link to the football staff.

if the football staff needs this guy to send them a link, we have more problems than you know.

 

[FTLPSU]

Agree with the secondary part here.

I posted elsewhere I don't know why they thought 2 safeties at 10 plus 2 cover downs that wide was necessary. It just gave the box guys very little room for error. At some point, you can really help your box guys out if you ask the corners to be physical and better to be honest. They lined up with A TON of respect for the quick game from Michigan. I mean they lined up like one would against an Air Raid team that you didn't think wanted to run the ball at all unless forced.

Yep and did u see the passing attempts and completions? 17/24 145 yds….Bell had 5 for 39 yards!

Paying people a lot of money for this product…sorry no excuses

 

[donaldfair71]

Yep and did u see the passing attempts and completions? 17/24 145 yds….Bell had 5 for 39 yards!

Paying people a lot of money for this product…sorry no excuses

I have long felt like the offense (check my posts) lacks identity. It doesn’t really know what it wants to be but I also think that bad line play just encourages that. Iowa has gone from being average/useful offensively to this year being the worst in America, no coincidence its line is as bad as it’s been in decades. That matters.
Defensively (back on topic), I think Iowa is an example as well of having an identity and living within it. I know they give up a ton of points at times, and I know they can be made to look bad. I get it. But they are wonderfully coached on that side and there’s value in recruiting to a system then marrying that system. That stuff also matters. You’ll get big tackles, big ends, linebackers who aren’t afraid of contact, safeties that play downhill, and usually developed corners. But importantly, THEY PLAY TO THOSE EXACT STRENGTHS. Don’t want to hear it on the forum, but Pitt does that too. These 2 in particular (TCU too under Patterson) do what they do, know you will do X to beat it because it’sa natural weakness in the scheme, and then practice against your X because they know that you know it’s a stress point. There’s so ridiculously much value to that. Alabama and Georgia do too, but they could run just about anything when you have what they have to work with.
Penn State, really since about 2017, they just don’t have what I consider a system that is both married to and that they recruit to. You can still be successful changing coordinators, heck I would bet there are PSAC DCs that can X and O good schemes. But you can’t just have that, you must recruit to that, and then you must also make sure those recruits are B10 caliber. I don’t think any program can do it, necessarily. Why I’m so impressed by those that do. But Penn State should be able to, 100%.

 

[FTLPSU]

Duplicate delete

 

[FTLPSU]

The offense definitely lacks identity due to they are probing for what works each week, each drive, each down mainly due to your points about lack of a good offensive line. We have switched too many OC in short 3/4 year period, couple that with what most say JFs meddling doesn’t help (it also doesn’t help JF has about what 3 yrs calling plays as an OC) more time as a HC.

I was going to post since Saturdays loss about lack of a system and we just can’t plug and replace guys in a system like a few other successful programs do. As I mentioned when posters here talk about our great recruiting each year, which is a mirage for the most part. We recruit whoever is going to give Penn State interest not necessarily the right players for what we want to do. But you have to have an identity to know what you want and need. And then there’s the lack of development.

Only one out of work Coach could fix this in less than 2 years….Hint Rhule ain’t it…

 

[VaDave4PSU]

The offense definitely lacks identity due to they are probing for what works each week, each drive, each down mainly due to your points about lack of a good offensive line. We have switched too many OC in short 3/4 year period, couple that with what most say JFs meddling doesn’t help (it also doesn’t help JF has about what 3 yrs calling plays as an OC) more time as a HC.

I was going to post since Saturdays loss about lack of a system and we just can’t plug and replace guys in a system like a few other successful programs do. As I mentioned when posters here talk about our great recruiting each year, which is a mirage for the most part. We recruit whoever is going to give Penn State interest not necessarily the right players for what we want to do. But you have to have an identity to know what you want and need. And then there’s the lack of development.

Only one out of work Coach could fix this in less than 2 years….Hint Rhule ain’t it…

Yurcich is a big question mark. Go back to what he ran at Okie State. His time at OSU. His stint at Texas. They were a throw first offense. 3 and 4 wide. TEs were lead blockers out of the backfield.

Now, it's like we have a Mish mash playbook of what Moorhead brought, what Ciarrocca tried to do, and Yurcich's orbit motion.

 

[FTLPSU]

Yurcich is a big question mark. Go back to what he ran at Okie State. His time at OSU. His stint at Texas. They were a throw first offense. 3 and 4 wide. TEs were lead blockers out of the backfield.

Now, it's like we have a Mish mash playbook of what Moorhead brought, what Ciarrocca tried to do, and Yurcich's orbit motion.

Definitely….a screen pass is a run etc…we don’t have enough good WRs to run 10 and 11 personnel.

Is our strength Run or Pass right now? Don’t know…

 

[donaldfair71]

Yurcich is a big question mark. Go back to what he ran at Okie State. His time at OSU. His stint at Texas. They were a throw first offense. 3 and 4 wide. TEs were lead blockers out of the backfield.

Now, it's like we have a Mish mash playbook of what Moorhead brought, what Ciarrocca tried to do, and Yurcich's orbit motion.

My take on both sides of the ball (but more defensively) is that they assemble talent in recruiting, and that’s the goal after all. But regardless of said talent’s actual skillset, it is dictated a system that coaches want to have rather than the one that the talent’s strengths and weaknesses are. Think you’re too small? Ok, play a 3 man front and recruit 3 guys a year that can play nose who might be projects but would go to go to PSU rather than the MAC. Know who has B10 DTs? Ohio U (or maybe Central Mich but one of the early MAC schools had stout and rough to move tackles), that’s no joke. They have more than 1 that I bet won’t be there next year thanks to the portal. Big movers. Defensive tackles that are lesser stars but bigger bodies and use them as you want. No one telling him to recruit only smaller quick guys. I almost think he forgets about the portal sometimes.

Offensively, I really think the issue is QB/line play. The systems are fine. But you won’t be successful without good line play and a QB. They’ve had neither. And with one you can penalty move the ball decently consistently. With both you’re lethal.

 

[VaDave4PSU]

My take on both sides of the ball (but more defensively) is that they assemble talent in recruiting, and that’s the goal after all. But regardless of said talent’s actual skillset, it is dictated a system that coaches want to have rather than the one that the talent’s strengths and weaknesses are. Think you’re too small? Ok, play a 3 man front and recruit 3 guys a year that can play nose who might be projects but would go to go to PSU rather than the MAC. Know who has B10 DTs? Ohio U (or maybe Central Mich but one of the early MAC schools had stout and rough to move tackles), that’s no joke. They have more than 1 that I bet won’t be there next year thanks to the portal. Big movers. Defensive tackles that are lesser stars but bigger bodies and use them as you want. No one telling him to recruit only smaller quick guys. I almost think he forgets about the portal sometimes.

Offensively, I really think the issue is QB/line play. The systems are fine. But you won’t be successful without good line play and a QB. They’ve had neither. And with one you can penalty move the ball decently consistently. With both you’re lethal.

Makes since. I've seen it written that we probably have personnel for a 3-4 and that might be possible.

NT Mustipher
DT Izzard
DE Ellies

With Beamon, Van Der Berg, and Vanover spelling. Primary issue is not enough 300 lbs body types depth wise.

Edge Chop / Issac
Will Carter
Mike Elsdon/ King
Sam Jacobs

Chop is young still and could gain 20 lbs over the next 2 years, but Issac came to State as 220. He wasn't going to grow enough beyond a situational rusher to be a 4-3 DE for 3 downs. 3-4 could accentuate that.

Biggest problem we have is our LB core is just out of whack. I'd be fine with Carter moving to Mike but I left him at Will because it seems to be his likely progression. Jacobs doesn't have box backer instincts IMO, much like another 5* safety sized LB we recruited (Lance Dixon). They are Sam's. Jacobs should have been left at Sam and the portal mined for a box backer.

A forgotten player from our Lackawanna pipeline is Mills. I don't think he's taken any snaps. Brisker and Brown both saw time their first year. Mills inability to break through at Sam is unusual. De Luca sees the field at 211. Certainly Mills could have been developed to 210 since arrival?

Additionally, what about Brown at Sam? He made a great penatration and tackle on Corum on the goal line beating a TE.

 

[J.E.B]

They have little in the way of a middle defense. Not much at MLB and once you get past the LOS it’s 7-10 yds. Same in the pass defense. The middle is open most of the time. They are pretty good defending a play on the outside but not in the middle, between the tackles.

 

[donaldfair71]

Makes since. I've seen it written that we probably have personnel for a 3-4 and that might be possible.

NT Mustipher
DT Izzard
DE Ellies

With Beamon, Van Der Berg, and Vanover spelling. Primary issue is not enough 300 lbs body types depth wise.

Edge Chop / Issac
Will Carter
Mike Elsdon/ King
Sam Jacobs

Chop is young still and could gain 20 lbs over the next 2 years, but Issac came to State as 220. He wasn't going to grow enough beyond a situational rusher to be a 4-3 DE for 3 downs. 3-4 could accentuate that.

Biggest problem we have is our LB core is just out of whack. I'd be fine with Carter moving to Mike but I left him at Will because it seems to be his likely progression. Jacobs doesn't have box backer instincts IMO, much like another 5* safety sized LB we recruited (Lance Dixon). They are Sam's. Jacobs should have been left at Sam and the portal mined for a box backer.

A forgotten player from our Lackawanna pipeline is Mills. I don't think he's taken any snaps. Brisker and Brown both saw time their first year. Mills inability to break through at Sam is unusual. De Luca sees the field at 211. Certainly Mills could have been developed to 210 since arrival?

Additionally, what about Brown at Sam? He made a great penatration and tackle on Corum on the goal line beating a TE.

Good post.

I think we could run a 3 man front (the change is not as drastic is a lot of people think, the real big issue is to have a Nose that is the strongest guy on the team- but that is really what you need in a 1 tech in a 4 man front anyway).

I was probably not clear in that I don't advocate (and don't oppose at the same time) using a 3 man line, I just think that if JF thinks it is hard finding 2 guys who can play the position, find 1 and move the DEs around. The current tackles could be the wider ends. It allows you to recruit differently, not better or worse.

I think you really nailed something though, our DEs are, and have been, perfect for playing the Jack position in a modern 3-4 (Usually but not always the weak side OLB). I mean, Oweh is a an NFL 3-4 end, and Micah gets a lot of run there in passing downs (though I know and understand that he was an ILB and would be in a 3 man front as well). Chop is 100% what you want in a stand up end, so is Isaac. Don't know much about Mills. Jacobs could basically do his current job as a WILL in a 3 man front, or Mike really. Could also be the 3-4 equivalent of the Sam position, rushing at times and covering down to slot at times. The size thing wouldn't bother me, but he is likely better in space for sure. Comes back to having to recruit differently in some areas, but not all.

Brown might be able to handle the Sam spot but then you introduce not having probably your best safety in the back end. I think there's the reason they picked Sutherland to go there among all the candidates.

 

[Madsol]

there are 5 eligible receivers, not including the QB. Now do you want to include the QB? If you dont include the QB , you end up with Sean Clifford running down the field untouched for 60 yds.
So how do you want to play? (its an age old football question)
so now we are man to man across the board. so if you let one guy beat another guy deep and they hit a deep pass, then what?
if you take all the outside guys inside, and maybe causing traffic and a pick? like in basketball, bring the inside guys outside, you have a wide open receiver or 2.

There's lots to unpack in your question.

I agree about a lot to unpack. A couple things: if there's a RB in the backfield, you have at least one LB to key on him. Still 7 defenders on 5 blockers, assuming the other eligible receivers go out in the pattern. And if you don't have a RB, then you only have to worry about the QB running.

Admittedly, I'm reaching here. I realize it. But when you give up over 400 yards rushing, I think it's fair to reach for some other options.

 

[s1uggo72]

Good post.

I think we could run a 3 man front (the change is not as drastic is a lot of people think, the real big issue is to have a Nose that is the strongest guy on the team- but that is really what you need in a 1 tech in a 4 man front anyway).

I was probably not clear in that I don't advocate (and don't oppose at the same time) using a 3 man line, I just think that if JF thinks it is hard finding 2 guys who can play the position, find 1 and move the DEs around. The current tackles could be the wider ends. It allows you to recruit differently, not better or worse.

I think you really nailed something though, our DEs are, and have been, perfect for playing the Jack position in a modern 3-4 (Usually but not always the weak side OLB). I mean, Oweh is a an NFL 3-4 end, and Micah gets a lot of run there in passing downs (though I know and understand that he was an ILB and would be in a 3 man front as well). Chop is 100% what you want in a stand up end, so is Isaac. Don't know much about Mills. Jacobs could basically do his current job as a WILL in a 3 man front, or Mike really. Could also be the 3-4 equivalent of the Sam position, rushing at times and covering down to slot at times. The size thing wouldn't bother me, but he is likely better in space for sure. Comes back to having to recruit differently in some areas, but not all.

Brown might be able to handle the Sam spot but then you introduce not having probably your best safety in the back end. I think there's the reason they picked Sutherland to go there among all the candidates.

if we are going to run 4-2-5 then do it out of an even front, and quit trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. You are always going to be a gap short, so unless you are so much better physically, you'll always have this problem!

 

[JakkL]

His video confirmed what I thought after the game. The DL wasn't awful, but the LBs sure were. Elsdon and Jacob's just don't read plays well and the Sutherland LB experiment is a bust. Always a step slow to their assignments which allows the OL to reach them before they can fill a gap.