Flaming Hot Take: WBB meltdown good for MBB

[FreeDawg]

I know this is going to be too hot to handle but I think the men’s team making back-to-back tourneys & Jans finally getting the Hump rocking is a great thing but it required getting some support back from the women.

Is it a binary choice? No of course not. That said, the massive success of Vic Shaffer led to a boom of support of women’s basketball. I’m not saying that’s a bad thing. Folks want to support a winner & playing for 2 nattys does that. However, it got to the point where the women sucked all the energy out of men’s program. When Howland clawed the men out of the gutter & back in to the tournament, Starkville couldn’t put 2k people with a pulse in the Hump.

The downslide of the women post-Shaffer (Purcell is doing a fine job) & Jans putting together some success led to a shift back of energy & support for the men. In a perfect world both men & women’s makes NCAAs consistently & we have 2 winners to support but it’s not a net positive to have a huge women’s program at the expense of the men, support wise. Fire away

 

[johnson86-1]

I know this is going to be too hot to handle but I think the men’s team making back-to-back tourneys & Jans finally getting the Hump rocking is a great thing but it required getting some support back from the women.

Is it a binary choice? No of course not. That said, the massive success of Vic Shaffer led to a boom of support of women’s basketball. I’m not saying that’s a bad thing. Folks want to support a winner & playing for 2 nattys does that. However, it got to the point where the women sucked all the energy out of men’s program. When Howland clawed the men out of the gutter & back in to the tournament, Starkville couldn’t put 2k people with a pulse in the Hump.

The downslide of the women post-Shaffer (Purcell is doing a fine job) & Jans putting together some success led to a shift back of energy & support for the men. In a perfect world both men & women’s makes NCAAs consistently & we have 2 winners to support but it’s not a net positive to have a huge women’s program at the expense of the men, support wise. Fire away

I'm assuming the lack of support for Howland's teams were more about us having sucked for so long and his teams being frustrating in their own right as far as how they played and at times underperformed.

I just have a hard time fathoming not supporting a good men's team because of a good woman's team. I guess there are fans that aren't really basketball fans and they help buy seats for the women, but is it really that big of a deal? Even "good" women's basketball looks pretty terrible compared to solid men's basketball. Surely all the men have to do is not put a ****** product on the floor and what the women do will be irrelevant?

 

[OG Goat Holder]

Students create the atmosphere. They are all less than 15 minutes away, so we could have both. So even if we don't have huge crowds of alumni because they are split, student engagement is important and most paramount. From what I understand, Howland didn't do much of that.

Again, this is why overall stadium size and such isn't that big of a deal, as long as it's adequate. Students are the most important piece. When you sacrifice student engagement for alumni money and seat licenses, atmosphere suffers. We did that.

 

[MSUDC11-2.0]

I think there were a couple of key problems during the Howland era

1. Seemed like an OK guy but I’m sorry he was about as interesting as a bag of plain Lay’s potato chips.

2. We put A TON of effort into marketing baseball and women’s hoops who were having more success at that time, and didn’t really do the same for the men’s team, which made them look lackluster by comparison. Like we had some REALLY good players during the Howland era and I don’t feel like our fans really got to know them.

3. The program was DOA when we hired Howland and bringing it back to life is not something you can do quickly if you’re gonna go about it half hearted and your administration is gonna treat it like a number four sport.

4. Howland didn’t do a good enough job in winning the big games. He had talented teams and only got to one tourney in seven years. Before it got cancelled in 2020, we had the SEC POTY and were still just a bubble team.

I do feel like the 2019 team totally got the shaft from the school and the fan base. That was a really good team that earned 5 seed in the tournament. And on the same night we played Liberty I kinda remember that game being an afterthought because we were hosting a WBB tourney game and also hosting our first SEC series in the new baseball stadium.

 

[FreeDawg]

I'm assuming the lack of support for Howland's teams were more about us having sucked for so long and his teams being frustrating in their own right as far as how they played and at times underperformed.

I just have a hard time fathoming not supporting a good men's team because of a good woman's team. I guess there are fans that aren't really basketball fans and they help buy seats for the women, but is it really that big of a deal? Even "good" women's basketball looks pretty terrible compared to solid men's basketball. Surely all the men have to do is not put a ****** product on the floor and what the women do will be irrelevant?

Vic Shaffer & his PTLGD was a fever pitch of peak excitement. It wasn’t as much not having the resources to go to both but what gets you excited to go to both. I used the word energy intentionally. Basketball is weird as it’s the only sport that offers you option A & B. Folks prefer A but B can be so good that folks aren’t excited for A.

Typically, when a program has been down & fan support sucks, that initial success draws everyone back in and that never happened under Howland. Partially because he coached a boring brand of basketball but more so because Vic was the most loved guy in Starkville by far.

 

[FreeDawg]

Students create the atmosphere. They are all less than 15 minutes away, so we could have both. So even if we don't have huge crowds of alumni because they are split, student engagement is important and most paramount. From what I understand, Howland didn't do much of that.

Again, this is why overall stadium size and such isn't that big of a deal, as long as it's adequate. Students are the most important piece. When you sacrifice student engagement for alumni money and seat licenses, atmosphere suffers. We did that.

Agreed & moving them up hurt for sure compared to Williams & Stans era

 

[FlotownDawg]

Ben Howland is about the most boring man ever and his teams played a boring style of basketball. He never really got engagement from the fan base. It didn’t help that Vic was a charismatic coach who drew fans in and the women’s team was really good. Vic and Howland were night and day personality wise, and it showed in fan engagement.

 

[Dawgg]

So, I disagree with the premise. State fans will support a winner no matter what sport it is. We packed nearly 2,300 people into an old animal husbandry barn because VB had an opportunity to win the SEC. We had a parking lot full of overrun people watching college softball on a big screen for the school's first softball Super Regional. We have the top 17 on campus attendance record crowds and 23 of the top 25 in baseball. We will support a winner.

The problem with men's basketball during the Ben Howland years wasn't that Vic's made women's basketball so good so fast. The problem with men's basketball during the Ben Howland era was that at his absolute peak, he lost in the first round of the NCAA tournament to a 12 seed. Every time we started to believe in a Ben Howland team, they would lose to somebody they weren't supposed to or find some other way to disappoint. Ben Howland came in with a multiple Final Four pedigree, coached multiple NBA stars at UCLA, and brought in some high level recruits to Mississippi State, but was never able to turn the corner here. Howland should have surpassed Stansbury, but never did.

Also, a general admission women's basketball ticket was like $5-$10 and parking was free during that era. It was pretty cheap family fun to be able to see one of the best teams in the nation. A men's basketball ticket and parking pass was incongruent to the quality of the product on the court outside of maybe 2019.

 

[She Mate Me]

So, I disagree with the premise. State fans will support a winner no matter what sport it is. We packed nearly 2,300 people into an old animal husbandry barn because VB had an opportunity to win the SEC. We had a parking lot full of overrun people watching college softball on a big screen for the school's first softball Super Regional. We have the top 17 on campus attendance record crowds and 23 of the top 25 in baseball. We will support a winner.

The problem with men's basketball during the Ben Howland years wasn't that Vic's made women's basketball so good so fast. The problem with men's basketball during the Ben Howland era was that at his absolute peak, he lost in the first round of the NCAA tournament to a 12 seed. Every time we started to believe in a Ben Howland team, they would lose to somebody they weren't supposed to or find some other way to disappoint. Ben Howland came in with a multiple Final Four pedigree, coached multiple NBA stars at UCLA, and brought in some high level recruits to Mississippi State, but was never able to turn the corner here. Howland should have surpassed Stansbury, but never did.

Also, a general admission women's basketball ticket was like $5-$10 and parking was free during that era. It was pretty cheap family fun to be able to see one of the best teams in the nation. A men's basketball ticket and parking pass was incongruent to the quality of the product on the court outside of maybe 2019.

This is the answer.

 

[FreeDawg]

So, I disagree with the premise. State fans will support a winner no matter what sport it is. We packed nearly 2,300 people into an old animal husbandry barn because VB had an opportunity to win the SEC. We had a parking lot full of overrun people watching college softball on a big screen for the school's first softball Super Regional. We have the top 17 on campus attendance record crowds and 23 of the top 25 in baseball. We will support a winner.

The problem with men's basketball during the Ben Howland years wasn't that Vic's made women's basketball so good so fast. The problem with men's basketball during the Ben Howland era was that at his absolute peak, he lost in the first round of the NCAA tournament to a 12 seed. Every time we started to believe in a Ben Howland team, they would lose to somebody they weren't supposed to or find some other way to disappoint. Ben Howland came in with a multiple Final Four pedigree, coached multiple NBA stars at UCLA, and brought in some high level recruits to Mississippi State, but was never able to turn the corner here. Howland should have surpassed Stansbury, but never did.

Also, a general admission women's basketball ticket was like $5-$10 and parking was free during that era. It was pretty cheap family fun to be able to see one of the best teams in the nation. A men's basketball ticket and parking pass was incongruent to the quality of the product on the court outside of maybe 2019.

The men’s team made a tourney and got zero suppprt. I think they were headed back covid year and had no support. Typically improvement leads to renewed fan support. See several football hires. As a fanbase we basically forgot about basketball post Stans until this year. Howland era was damn near the Stans era results wise.

 

[FreeDawg]

Let me add im basing this premise on Tennessee basketball over like a 30 year stretch. Pay Summitt had such a good product UT fans didn’t support the men for 30 years and they had sold solid teams here and there. Now since the women aren’t what they were the men have flourished with support.

 

[Ranchdawg]

I think there were a couple of key problems during the Howland era

1. Seemed like an OK guy but I’m sorry he was about as interesting as a bag of plain Lay’s potato chips.

2. We put A TON of effort into marketing baseball and women’s hoops who were having more success at that time, and didn’t really do the same for the men’s team, which made them look lackluster by comparison. Like we had some REALLY good players during the Howland era and I don’t feel like our fans really got to know them.

3. The program was DOA when we hired Howland and bringing it back to life is not something you can do quickly if you’re gonna go about it half hearted and your administration is gonna treat it like a number four sport.

4. Howland didn’t do a good enough job in winning the big games. He had talented teams and only got to one tourney in seven years. Before it got cancelled in 2020, we had the SEC POTY and were still just a bubble team.

I do feel like the 2019 team totally got the shaft from the school and the fan base. That was a really good team that earned 5 seed in the tournament. And on the same night we played Liberty I kinda remember that game being an afterthought because we were hosting a WBB tourney game and also hosting our first SEC series in the new baseball stadium.

Yea, I was at the baseball game catching the basketball on TV when I went to the concessions. Couldn't believe we lost to Liberty.

 

[ETK99]

The men had a losing streak that almost cost them a tourney spot. The women had nothing to do with anything. People want to watch winners, period. If both were winning big, people would be at both.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

I think there were a couple of key problems during the Howland era

1. Seemed like an OK guy but I’m sorry he was about as interesting as a bag of plain Lay’s potato chips.

2. We put A TON of effort into marketing baseball and women’s hoops who were having more success at that time, and didn’t really do the same for the men’s team, which made them look lackluster by comparison. Like we had some REALLY good players during the Howland era and I don’t feel like our fans really got to know them.

3. The program was DOA when we hired Howland and bringing it back to life is not something you can do quickly if you’re gonna go about it half hearted and your administration is gonna treat it like a number four sport.

4. Howland didn’t do a good enough job in winning the big games. He had talented teams and only got to one tourney in seven years. Before it got cancelled in 2020, we had the SEC POTY and were still just a bubble team.

I do feel like the 2019 team totally got the shaft from the school and the fan base. That was a really good team that earned 5 seed in the tournament. And on the same night we played Liberty I kinda remember that game being an afterthought because we were hosting a WBB tourney game and also hosting our first SEC series in the new baseball stadium.

Howland was boring and didn't get out much, team didn't play hard, and always dropped big games when they had momentum. It was miserable being a fan of that bunch, and most checked out (I was one of them). They had talent, at least on paper. And like you said, following up Rick Ray was a task.

The men’s team made a tourney and got zero suppprt. I think they were headed back covid year and had no support. Typically improvement leads to renewed fan support. See several football hires. As a fanbase we basically forgot about basketball post Stans until this year. Howland era was damn near the Stans era results wise.

That team was only two 2 wins better than this one. They actually beat their SWAC team and then picked off another SEC game. And they had better talent, at least on paper.

And remember, a lot of support slipped during the end of the Stans Era. Like Howland, it was just tough to watch. People just got tired of all that bullshlt.

 

[Called3rdstrikedawg]

Yet somehow Stans managed to land his program in the NCAA tourney 6 of his 12 HC years and was Assistant Coach and chief recruiter for Richard Williams his 95 and 96 tourney teams.

Less than one week ago, State was 1 SEC tourney loss away from either a play in game or out completely.

State had some head-scratching losses this year that compared a lot to the head-scratching losses Howland had. The same team thst lost to southern and GaTech, and Ole Miss, beat LSU twice, Auburn once, almost twice and Tennessee twice, but also lost to South Carolina twice and got embarrassed by Bama twice.

Head-scratching disappearing acts by Seniors and Grad-students!

But..... a NEW Season starts Thursday! Which group shows up???

 

[MSUDC11-2.0]

Yet somehow Stans managed to land his program in the NCAA tourney 6 of his 12 HC years and was Assistant Coach and chief recruiter for Richard Williams his 95 and 96 tourney teams.

Less than one week ago, State was 1 SEC tourney loss away from either a play in game or out completely.

State had some head-scratching losses this year that compared a lot to the head-scratching losses Howland had. The same team thst lost to southern and GaTech, and Ole Miss, beat LSU twice, Auburn once, almost twice and Tennessee twice, but also lost to South Carolina twice and got embarrassed by Bama twice.

Head-scratching disappearing acts by Seniors and Grad-students!

But..... a NEW Season starts Thursday! Which group shows up???

The difference is Jans has three wins this year better than any single win we’ve had in the last 20 years. We did not win big games under Howland or really in the last 7-8 years of Stans either.

 

[BulldogBlitz]

On a certain level, the two basketball teams should have the same fanbase. It does not. There are more women willing to watch the women play.

If there's anything pulling support off the men's basketball, it's likely baseball.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

Yet somehow Stans managed to land his program in the NCAA tourney 6 of his 12 HC years and was Assistant Coach and chief recruiter for Richard Williams his 95 and 96 tourney teams.

Less than one week ago, State was 1 SEC tourney loss away from either a play in game or out completely.

State had some head-scratching losses this year that compared a lot to the head-scratching losses Howland had. The same team thst lost to southern and GaTech, and Ole Miss, beat LSU twice, Auburn once, almost twice and Tennessee twice, but also lost to South Carolina twice and got embarrassed by Bama twice.

Head-scratching disappearing acts by Seniors and Grad-students!

But..... a NEW Season starts Thursday! Which group shows up???

Stans' tenure was a tale of two coaches. The first half and the second half. It seems like he recruited totally different players.

 

[Bulldog Bruce]

I know this is a bit of a detour but it is funny how some coaches "get it" and most don't. Vic Schaefer obviously gets it and took it with him when he left. You would think once the book had been written that others could duplicate it and that just doesn't happen.

 

[Perd Hapley]

Let me add im basing this premise on Tennessee basketball over like a 30 year stretch. Pay Summitt had such a good product UT fans didn’t support the men for 30 years and they had sold solid teams here and there. Now since the women aren’t what they were the men have flourished with support.

Now do UConn….