Help a novice out on team titles....

[PSU87]

So over the years, we have won National titles several times without winning the Big Ten title. Obviously this year that didn't apply, as we essentially cruised, but Iowa and OSU both appear to be down.

I have heard the explanation that our talent gap is "diluted" in the Big Ten tourney due to a smaller pool of schools, but I guess I don't understand from a scoring standpoint how that translates. We are facing essentially the same teams at Nationals and then some.

What makes Big Ten titles more elusive than National titles?

 

[gimb14]

So over the years, we have won National titles several times without winning the Big Ten title. Obviously this year that didn't apply, as we essentially cruised, but Iowa and OSU both appear to be down.

I have heard the explanation that our talent gap is "diluted" in the Big Ten tourney due to a smaller pool of schools, but I guess I don't understand from a scoring standpoint how that translates. We are facing essentially the same teams at Nationals and then some.

What makes Big Ten titles more elusive than National titles?

So basically every match in the Big Ten tournament is tough. Makes getting bonus points harder. But also, we tend to hold seed or close to it for NCAAs while other teams drop. Just wrestling to seed widens the gap. Then add in that Penn State typically performs better than seed while others don't and the gap widens even further. Also, for placement points, we still get them at most weight classes. Other schools don't. In the Big Ten tournament there's less wrestlers in each weight so the chances of other schools getting those points is increased.

 

[Niassne]

My 2 cents. PSU has better top end talent. PSU wrestlers (i.e top seeds in both b10 and Nationals) are far more likely to win and place the same in Big 10s or the Nationals. However, for other B10 teams, they have good wresters but not the elite. Therefore, they can score great at B10s but when the pool is larger, they are more likely to place lower than at the B10 while PSU wresters remain the same. Nationals favor the dominant wrestler vs the very, very good wrestler.

 

[Lionvet]

So over the years, we have won National titles several times without winning the Big Ten title. Obviously this year that didn't apply, as we essentially cruised, but Iowa and OSU both appear to be down.

I have heard the explanation that our talent gap is "diluted" in the Big Ten tourney due to a smaller pool of schools, but I guess I don't understand from a scoring standpoint how that translates. We are facing essentially the same teams at Nationals and then some.

What makes Big Ten titles more elusive than National titles?

Someone in another thread explained it pretty well. However I'll take a go for you. In regards to team point scoring (excluding bonus points) individual NCAA placement points are as follow:

1st place= 16 team points
2nd 12 points
3rd 10
4th 9
5th 7
6th 6
7th 4
8th 3 points

PSU has had so many wrestlers that will take 1st or second.
Other Big Ten school will have wrestlers that may take 2nd or 3rd at Big Tens and thus rack up points closer to PSU in the Big Ten tourney. Yet when the other schools wrestlers are competing at NCAA they may take 6th or 8th at NCAA instead of 2nd or 3rd in the Big Ten tourney. Thus their team points are less in the NCAA tourney compared to Big Tens. Meanwhile PSU has a significant number of wrestlers still taking 1st or 2nd in NCAA thus they are racking up similar point totals as in the Big Ten tourney. PSU wrestlers are also bonus point machines in the NCAA tourney.

Any holes in various weight classes for PSU were more of an issue at Big Tens, as they were not getting points in a couple of weight classes. This was not much of a big deal at NCAA's as not many teams have the chance to AA at each weight class -like is a legitimate chance this year for PSU. Meanwhile at Big Tens someone ranked in the 9th to 16th range for Iowa or Ohio State could gather a fair amount of team points at Big Tens, yet not so much as NCAAs.

 

[kijana]

Also, our #1 and #2 seeds will not have 1st round byes like they do in the B10s so they will have an excellent opportunity to pick up bonus points at NCAAs.

 

[Lionvet]

Rank	School	Points	1st	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	6th	7th	8th	Total
1	Penn State​	146.5 (130)	5 (2)	0 (1)	0(4)	0 (0)	1(0)	0(0)	0 (0)	0(1)	6 (8)
2	Ohio State​	110.00 (139.5)	1 (4)	1 (2)	2(0)	1(1)	1(0)	0(0)	0(1)	0 (1)	6(9)
3	Oklahoma State​	103.0	1	0	0	2	2	2	1	0	8
4	Iowa​	97.0 (112.5)	1 (2)	0(2)	3(1)	1(0)	0(1)	0(0)	0(0)	0(1)	5 (7)

Amended above chart from Wikipedia from 2017 NCAA tourney results. Added Big Ten results in parenthesis. In 2017 Joseph was 3rd, Hall 2nd and Nickal 3rd at Big Tens and then each took 1st at NCAA

2017 NCAA Division I Wrestling Championships - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[SleepyLion]

Also, our #1 and #2 seeds will not have 1st round byes like they do in the B10s so they will have an excellent opportunity to pick up bonus points at NCAAs.

First round byes only "cost" 2 team points per wrestler. That assumes a pin.

 

[SRATH]

My 2 cents. PSU has better top end talent. PSU wrestlers (i.e top seeds in both b10 and Nationals) are far more likely to win and place the same in Big 10s or the Nationals. However, for other B10 teams, they have good wresters but not the elite. Therefore, they can score great at B10s but when the pool is larger, they are more likely to place lower than at the B10 while PSU wresters remain the same. Nationals favor the dominant wrestler vs the very, very good wrestler.

The term we used in swimming was Aces and Spaces. Obviously we have had some very high end wrestlers who score heavy at nationals. There are other parts to it.........the staff really dials the team in for nationals. Again, in swimming, we had kids taper for Districts. Other kids tapered for States. Our staff has mastered prepping for nationals. Weight management over 3 days, a deep well of endurance and I am sure there are plenty of others.

The pool (no pun intended) matters too. Nationals has 30+ guys from all over. Some of these guys have little business being on the mat with a top PSU guy and we tend to score a ton of bonus points. OThers have noted, the BT is tough all over, especially compared to some of these other conferences. Will Lewan does a lot of winning, but he rarely scores bonus. Editors Note, when the kid lets it fly he really can score, he doesn't for some odd reason. You hear our kids all the time, keep looking to score, keep looking to score. We have had years at nationals where the bonus points equate to another national champ.........

Of course, this team is very different........we have tons of studs and there are no spaces.......none.