Interesting play in Mets game today.

[Bulldog Bruce]

Buck Showalter is always thinking. Mets have first and third with one out. Batter hits a fly ball to left that was a little shallow. Runner at third tags up and scores. Runner at first stays there. Arizona decides they are going to appeal the tagup at third base. When the pitcher steps off the rubber the runner at first takes off for second. Confusion ensues but the pitcher ends up completing the appeal, which was unsuccessful because he did not leave third early. The runner at first is now at second. If the pitcher threw to second to get the third out, the appeal would not be allowed. They Mets either protect the run or they get the runner to second by sending him.

 

[Irondawg]

Wow - that is interesting and would have never thought of that

 

[PuebloDawg]

Rule change needed. That’s dumb

 

[DoggieDaddy13]

Rule change needed. That’s dumb

It's awesome. Better be damn sure of your appeal.

 

[hydrodawg]

So why stop at 2nd? Keep running and force the picture to make a play in the field.

 

[Drebin]

So why stop at 2nd? Keep running and force the picture to make a play in the field.

He actually stopped between first and second as the pitcher bluffed his way before completing the throw to third for the appeal.

Ingenious decision from Showalter. After the game the player and showalter both said they worked on that scenario in spring training.

 

[8dog]

How often is someone caught leaving early? Id just take the out at 2nd. This doesn’t seem all that brilliant to me.

 

[ronpolk]

Rule change needed. That’s dumb

Why is it dumb?

 

[Go Budaw]

How often is someone caught leaving early? Id just take the out at 2nd. This doesn’t seem all that brilliant to me.

Its more brilliant if you actually tell the runner to leave a little bit early on the shallow fly ball before doing it. But if the runner doesn’t leave early or its too close to call, certainly seems like the obvious play is to go to 2nd. This play seems like the first cousin of the 1st and 3rd with 1 out where the guy from first leaves way early to steal to try and get caught in a run down so the run can score, or get 2nd base for free.

Another weird thing about that play is that if they never attempted the appeal, the runner on 1st has to stay there. But if they just played it out with normal baserunning principles on the fly ball, the guy on first (assuming he has average speed) takes 2nd easily if he timed his his jump with the release of the throw to the plate. This is provided that they don’t cut the throw….which would be silly to do on a shallow fly ball unless you have a big lead and care more about the out than the run. That being the case, you could make the argument that you go straight to the appeal and don’t worry about the runner. After all, he should have already been on 2nd, anyway.

So, its clear they actively planned this starting with the previous play, as they deliberately sacrificed a free base to essentially hold leverage for the appeal. Pretty interesting. Baseball never fails to still occasionally show you something that you’ve never seen before.

 

[Bulldog Bruce]

If the guy at third had actually left early, and you take the out, the run counts because you can't appeal after another play happens. And for the other guy about keep running, the ball is live so once they do the appeal and he is safe, you dont want to now get the third out. The ball was thrown to third.

 

[archdog]

Why can't you appeal, because there was already 2 outs?

 

[Bulldog Bruce]

The appeal HAS to be the NEXT play. So if he throws to second to get the third out, that was the next play and they then can't appeal and take away the run. There is a 4 out scenario in that if it is first and third with one out and the fly ball happens for out 2 and both runners tag. If they get the third out on that runner going to second, but the runner on third scores before the out is made, you can still appeal the runner leaving early to erase the run.

 

[HomeBoyDawg]

Look for fake appeals in the future--act like you are appealing but throw the runner out at 2nd.

 

[8dog]

Take the out and have it reviewed.

 

[Go Budaw]

Take the out and have it reviewed.

Can’t do that. No review can occur after another play has happened, either. That’s like reviewing whether a runner crossed the goal line after the extra point has already been kicked.

 

[8dog]

Good point. Either way it’s not all that brilliant of a play. And replay showed the runner- shocker- tagged up correctly. I think it was you that said its only smart if you are intentionally leaving early. I think you will also see teams appeal quicker. You dont have to get back on the rubber to appeal.

 

[Go Budaw]

Look for fake appeals in the future--act like you are appealing but throw the runner out at 2nd.

The runner wants to either draw the throw or get 2nd base, so a fake appeal does nothing to solve the issue since the hitting team still gets one of the two desired outcomes.

I think you’ll just see a snap throw to 3rd so you can get both the appeal and the runner. But overall, its such a specific set of circumstances that have to line up right for the play to ever make sense in the first place for the hitting team….and now that it’s out there I bet you may never see it again for several years….if ever.

 

[llmsudawg]

That's freaking brilliant.

Absolutely nothing to lose by doing it. Getting a runner in scoring position if the appeal is ruled safe.

 

[Go Budaw]

Good point. Either way it’s not all that brilliant of a play. And replay showed the runner- shocker- tagged up correctly. I think it was you that said its only smart if you are intentionally leaving early. I think you will also see teams appeal quicker. You dont have to get back on the rubber to appeal.

Exactly. At the end of the day in this instance, the Mets really gained nothing. Yeah, the guy went from 1st to 2nd after the play was over, but he should have been able to do that during the play anyway if he was running the bases correctly.

It’s a new neat thing that other teams now kind of have to think about, and that takes prep time away for other more pertinent things, but that’s about it. It’s kind of like a wacky trick play you try when you’re up 4 TD’s on a Sun Belt team, just to put it on film and make other teams invest 3 minutes in practice against it, knowing that you’re never going to use it again.

 

[Maroon Eagle]

Great move. Here's a tweet with video for those who've not seen the play:

.@mikelowell25 & @CliffFloyd30 explain Buck Showalter's strategy behind the steal to negate the Diamondbacks' appeal last night @Mets | #MLBTonight pic.twitter.com/xpAqG1o2go— MLB Network (@MLBNetwork) April 19, 2022

 

[Go Budaw]

That's freaking brilliant.

Absolutely nothing to lose by doing it. Getting a runner in scoring position if the appeal is ruled safe.

There’s plenty to lose by doing it the way the Mets just did. They would have lost an out or lost a runner in scoring position if the pitcher didn’t hesitate. Fortunately, there was enough confusion that they didn’t lose either one, but they didn’t gain any advantage because the runner didn’t leave early. It all came out in the wash.

 

[llmsudawg]

There’s plenty to lose by doing it the way the Mets just did. They would have lost an out or lost a runner in scoring position if the pitcher didn’t hesitate. Fortunately, there was enough confusion that they didn’t lose either one, but they didn’t gain any advantage because the runner didn’t leave early. It all came out in the wash.

Runner went from 1st base to 2nd base. Not an advantage? hmm...

 

[HomeBoyDawg]

You missed my point. If the team in the field knows the tag-up was good, have several on the bench holler "he left early", go through the motions of an appeal and, if the runner takes off from first, throw him out for an easy out.

 

[Dawg1969]

Along the same vain. In the TAM-GA. game, with a man on first the batter took off for first after ball 3. The runner goes to second. in the confusion no play was made. The batter is called back to the plate with a 3-2 count. The runner just stole second.

 

[Go Budaw]

Runner went from 1st base to 2nd base. Not an advantage? hmm...

The play before was a 250 ft fly out to left field, followed by a throw to home plate. Read the thread, and watch the play. 2nd base was there for the taking by tagging on the throw to home plate while the ball was in play previously. The runner made a conscious decision NOT to take 2nd base even though it was wide open, so he could do the whole “spoil the appeal” routine, which didn’t even need to be done because the runner didn’t even leave early. It was a roundabout way of getting to the exact same situation that they should have been in originally, but with much more risk because if the pitcher just made the common sense throw to 2nd, he was hosed.

 

[Bulldog Bruce]

Yes, I thought of that also. That was the one weakness in the play from Buck's standpoint. You should only do it if you believe the runner might have left early.

 

[Bulldog Bruce]

Great get. That even clears it up more for me. The appeal was no longer even an option since he went to make a play on the runner.

 

[Go Budaw]

You missed my point. If the team in the field knows the tag-up was good, have several on the bench holler "he left early", go through the motions of an appeal and, if the runner takes off from first, throw him out for an easy out.

Except that its something that has to be planned ahead of time on behalf of the runner. Once aGAIN, the standard base running rule is to always tag from first to 2nd once you know the throw is headed to home plate….as it always will on a shallow to moderate fly ball with a man on 3rd and less than 2 outs. It’s an impossible out to get for the defense to throw from the outfield to home plate, tag (or attempt to tag) the runner, make the exchange, then go to second, then tag the runner there all before a guy can go 90 feet. The runner on 1st even has the luxury to check the release trajectory of the ball before committing, so he knows its going home.

The extreme worst case scenario is the runner on first badly misjudges the throw, the defense cuts it and nails him at 2nd, and guess what, the hitting team has still sacrificed an out to protect a run by preventing a play at the plate from even happening. Same thing Buck was trying to do, except he wasn’t actually protecting anything.

 

[Ghostman]

I wonder how many managers, players, and even umpires (not to mention fans) learned about this rule because of this play this week.

 

[Go Budaw]

Along the same vain. In the TAM-GA. game, with a man on first the batter took off for first after ball 3. The runner goes to second. in the confusion no play was made. The batter is called back to the plate with a 3-2 count. The runner just stole second.

That’s pretty interesting. I would think that would likely need to be addressed by some kind of delay of game penalty….batter being called out but maybe they allow the steal to stand. But then again, it’s everyone’s responsibility to know the count. Still seems pretty shady to leave the box and run the bases when you know you didn’t get a walk, though.

 

[Lawdawg.sixpack]

Here’s a video of the Astros using this play to save a run.

[tweet]1509294077522571267[/tweet]

 

[thekimmer]

That is interesting but why not.....

Buck Showalter is always thinking. Mets have first and third with one out. Batter hits a fly ball to left that was a little shallow. Runner at third tags up and scores. Runner at first stays there. Arizona decides they are going to appeal the tagup at third base. When the pitcher steps off the rubber the runner at first takes off for second. Confusion ensues but the pitcher ends up completing the appeal, which was unsuccessful because he did not leave third early. The runner at first is now at second. If the pitcher threw to second to get the third out, the appeal would not be allowed. They Mets either protect the run or they get the runner to second by sending him.

Why not just throw the ball to the base instead of making a formal appeal. Also, if a guy left early it makes no sense that you can't still make a play to get him out even if you have to make another play during the process. Under these rules what if you have more than one runner that you believe left early and less than two outs? Do you have to make a choice or can you appeal both bases?

 

[Maroon Eagle]

I'm laughing since it's the Diamondbacks that have fallen for it both times...

 

[archdog]

Hold up, they review the first action in a double play sometimes.

 

[Bulldog Bruce]

you have to declare both appeals at the same time.