Oof. Hadad dropped the hammer on Lemonis

[travis.sixpack]

In the Sunday/Monday pod. I agree with him %. If you don’t fire Lemonis, you have no business calling yourself an elite college baseball program. You’re telling the world you’re more interested in saving a few dollars than doing what must be done. And you can’t worry about the players. Those are short-term concerns.

 

[eckie1]

In the Sunday/Monday pod. I agree with him %. If you don’t fire Lemonis, you have no business calling yourself an elite college baseball program. You’re telling the world you’re more interested in saving a few dollars than doing what must be done. And you can’t worry about the players. Those are short-term concerns.

No doubt about it. I saw pitching decisions today that even Foxhall would have probably not even made. And they ended up being the difference in the game.

The sooner he’s gone, the quicker we can start the rebuild.

 

[Bobby Ricigliano]

In the Sunday/Monday pod. I agree with him %. If you don’t fire Lemonis, you have no business calling yourself an elite college baseball program. You’re telling the world you’re more interested in saving a few dollars than doing what must be done. And you can’t worry about the players. Those are short-term concerns.

Me too, except 15-45 is not 30 games under 0.500.

 

[patdog]

Me too, except 15-45 is not 30 games under 0.500.

Actually, it is. .500 would be 15-15. 45 losses would be 30 games under .500. (I realize there's an alternate calculation that .500 would be 30-30, so 15-45 is only 15 games under .500, but that's not the way the stat is calculated).

 

[josebrown]

To me the choice is simple: Do we wanna be Miss. State Baseball or Indiana Baseball? Because without looking at the record, I’d say we are worse than he had Indiana or close to the same. Lemonis is our Gene Chizik. Nothing wrong with being appreciative of his time, we did win the whole thing under him, but it’s over, past time to move on…

 

[TrueMaroonGrind]

There are times when everyone needs a fresh start. This is one of those times. The players, fan base and coaches are done. I am really struggling to see how an off-season with the same coaches would fix it all. What else is there to say at this point?

 

[thekimmer]

Yes and it reminded me of an alternative viewpoint that is very true. Many have said that Lem deserves another season because he won a NC but that is actually a prime reason why he DOES NOT deserve another year. He managed to take a NC and instead of parlaying it into building a dynasty he completely squandered it and burned the program to the ground in just two years! That is unforgivable and unrecoverable.

I have been listening to him for TWO seasons now go off like a broken record with 'I've just got to figure it out", and "I don't know". Well if he still doesn't know and hasn't figured it out by now HE NEVER WILL! Far from figuring it out, things have gotten WORSE. Enough already. He promised us at the end of last season it would get fixed. I think anyone who still wants to give him another year are just shocked to the point of disbelief that we could be this bad for two seasons immediately after winning an NC. There is no way he can lead us out of this. He has to go and it isn't even debatable.

 

[thekimmer]

Lemonis is our Gene Chizik. …

I am here to eat a crow dinner on this one. It PO'd me to no end to hear people make this claim and I called people out for doing it a few times but they were 100% right. Chris Lemonis is the Gene Chizik of College Baseball.

 

[The Peeper]

Actually, it is. .500 would be 15-15. 45 losses would be 30 games under .500. (I realize there's an alternate calculation that .500 would be 30-30, so 15-45 is only 15 games under .500, but that's not the way the stat is calculated).

 

[NukeDogg]

Yes and it reminded me of an alternative viewpoint that is very true. Many have said that Lem deserves another season because he won a NC but that is actually a prime reason why he DOES NOT deserve another year. He managed to take a NC and instead of parlaying it into building a dynasty he completely squandered it and burned the program to the ground in just two years! That is unforgivable and unrecoverable.

I have been listening to him for TWO seasons now go off like a broken record with 'I've just got to figure it out", and "I don't know". Well if he still doesn't know and hasn't figured it out by now HE NEVER WILL! Far from figuring it out, things have gotten WORSE. Enough already. He promised us at the end of last season it would get fixed. I think anyone who still wants to give him another year are just shocked to the point of disbelief that we could be this bad for two seasons immediately after winning an NC. There is no way he can lead us out of this. He has to go and it isn't even debatable.

You perfectly encapsulated exactly my viewpoint. I've been one of the slow ones to jump on the Fire Lemonis bandwagon, because how idiotic do we have to be to run off a National Championship winning coach in two years, right? I had numerous laughs at LSU when they fired Orgeron less than 2 years after the Burrow title. I remember conversations with my brother (the only other huge State fan in my family) about how our natty combined with our stadium, fan support, etc. was about to kick off a dynasty, recruits and transfers were going to roll in, now that the monkey was off our back and the last piece of the puzzle was in the trophy case, we were about to grab the college baseball world by the balls heading into 2022.

I don't typically ever pay attention to post-game pressers bc they're all just coachspeak, and they only get asked soft-toss questions anyway. But the last few series I've gone back and read or watched Lem's comments, and you are 100% spot on. Way too much "we gotta find a way to compete better", and "we have to figure out how to win that game" and "it's tough because we did some good things" - we had 3 hits, made 4 errors, and gave up 8 free baserunners, what the hell kind of good things are you talking about? Last year we finished out on, what was it, an 11 game losing streak? We're at 7 losses in a row right now and headed for possibly 0-13 to close out this year, and win even less SEC games than in 2021 which is just simply unbelieveable to be in this position two years later. I know he's feeling immense pressure and it keeps him up at night way more than it does us fans (at least I hope it does), but so far he hasn't managed to find any answers and that's the most troubling thing of all.

 

[thekimmer]

You perfectly encapsulated exactly my viewpoint. I've been one of the slow ones to jump on the Fire Lemonis bandwagon, because how idiotic do we have to be to run off a National Championship winning coach in two years, right? I had numerous laughs at LSU when they fired Orgeron less than 2 years after the Burrow title. I remember conversations with my brother (the only other huge State fan in my family) about how our natty combined with our stadium, fan support, etc. was about to kick off a dynasty, recruits and transfers were going to roll in, now that the monkey was off our back and the last piece of the puzzle was in the trophy case, we were about to grab the college baseball world by the balls heading into 2022.

I don't typically ever pay attention to post-game pressers bc they're all just coachspeak, and they only get asked soft-toss questions anyway. But the last few series I've gone back and read or watched Lem's comments, and you are 100% spot on. Way too much "we gotta find a way to compete better", and "we have to figure out how to win that game" and "it's tough because we did some good things" - we had 3 hits, made 4 errors, and gave up 8 free baserunners, what the hell kind of good things are you talking about? Last year we finished out on, what was it, an 11 game losing streak? We're at 7 losses in a row right now and headed for possibly 0-13 to close out this year, and win even less SEC games than in 2021 which is just simply unbelieveable to be in this position two years later. I know he's feeling immense pressure and it keeps him up at night way more than it does us fans (at least I hope it does), but so far he hasn't managed to find any answers and that's the most troubling thing of all.

I have no doubt Lem is in misery right now and is genuinely desperate to get the ship righted but it is obvious he cannot do it. So I would say to him, thank you for what you did for us but it is time to move on for the good of both parties.

 

[DoggieDaddy13]

He may be in misery right now, but he OBVIOUSLY sat on his fat *** since winning a Championship.
Or he was just never a good coach to begin with and we can only thank our Senior Leadership for winning our only baseball title.

 

[Seinfeld]

I have no doubt Lem is in misery right now and is genuinely desperate to get the ship righted but it is obvious he cannot do it. So I would say to him, thank you for what you did for us but it is time to move on for the good of both parties.

I keep hearing or seeing comments about how Lemonis has lost the team, but you can take one glance at him and see that he’s lost himself. He’s defeated, he has no idea as to what lever to pull next, and I just can’t fathom why anyone would have a desire to do this all over again next year.

I don’t know what the buyout looks like, but it’s time for the cigar boys to step up

 

[ABiggerUglierJoe]

In the Sunday/Monday pod. I agree with him %. If you don’t fire Lemonis, you have no business calling yourself an elite college baseball program. You’re telling the world you’re more interested in saving a few dollars than doing what must be done. And you can’t worry about the players. Those are short-term concerns.

In the Sunday/Monday pod. I agree with him %. If you don’t fire Lemonis, you have no business calling yourself an elite college baseball program. You’re telling the world you’re more interested in saving a few dollars than doing what must be done. And you can’t worry about the players. Those are short-term concerns.

They can fire Lemonis and hire me and I would be willing to tell them "I don't know" for half his salary. For the money he is making, those words should NEVER come out of his mouth.

 

[Bobby Ricigliano]

Actually, it is. .500 would be 15-15. 45 losses would be 30 games under .500. (I realize there's an alternate calculation that .500 would be 30-30, so 15-45 is only 15 games under .500, but that's not the way the stat is calculated).

I think you need to double check how the stat is calculated.

 

[Fang1]

I am here to eat a crow dinner on this one. It PO'd me to no end to hear people make this claim and I called people out for doing it a few times but they were 100% right. Chris Lemonis is the Gene Chizik of College Baseball.

I"ll have some of that too............

 

[Pilgrimdawg]

I just don’t think that he is capable at an elite level. Some of those players that he inherited were basically on the field coaches. All he had to do was stay out of the way and don’t screw it up. The Jake Mangun and Tanner Allen type players plus several others are gone now. I think those guys were the leaders and on the field Managers. We either did not recruit or did not develop the next generation of elite players. Lemonis seems like a good guy and I am sorry that he couldn’t sustain it, but he didn’t. Time to thank him for his time here and move on.

 

[MSUDC11-2.0]

I just don’t think that he is capable at an elite level. Some of those players that he inherited were basically on the field coaches. All he had to do was stay out of the way and don’t screw it up. The Jake Mangun and Tanner Allen type players plus several others are gone now. I think those guys were the leaders and on the field Managers. We either did not recruit or did not develop the next generation of elite players. Lemonis seems like a good guy and I am sorry that he couldn’t sustain it, but he didn’t. Time to thank him for his time here and move on.

We don’t win a championship without TA, Bednar, or Sims, but we also don’t win one without Chris Lemonis. He managed that team masterfully, because it was far from a perfect team, he definitely had to navigate through some issues at various positions.

That doesn’t make the last two years any better, but I’ll at least give the guy credit where he deserves it, which he absolutely does for 2021, and it just makes 2022 and 2023 all the more perplexing.

 

[blacklistedbully]

I just don’t think that he is capable at an elite level. Some of those players that he inherited were basically on the field coaches. All he had to do was stay out of the way and don’t screw it up. The Jake Mangun and Tanner Allen type players plus several others are gone now. I think those guys were the leaders and on the field Managers. We either did not recruit or did not develop the next generation of elite players. Lemonis seems like a good guy and I am sorry that he couldn’t sustain it, but he didn’t. Time to thank him for his time here and move on.

Not unlike the Gary Henderson situation when he took over in 2018. I've long maintained it was the team leaders, in particular Jake Mangum, who pushed that team to excel and make the CWS. GH provided a calming, no pressure environment after what we had prior, but he also made some really bonehead game-management decisions our talent was able to mostly overcome.

 

[thekimmer]

We don’t win a championship without TA, Bednar, or Sims, but we also don’t win one without Chris Lemonis. He managed that team masterfully, because it was far from a perfect team, he definitely had to navigate through some issues at various positions.

That doesn’t make the last two years any better, but I’ll at least give the guy credit where he deserves it, which he absolutely does for 2021, and it just makes 2022 and 2023 all the more perplexing.

I think Bo Bounds is on to something here. The year Cann was fired and all that turmoil we STILL went to the CWS with perennial also ran Gary Henderson as interim coach. Then along came Lem and we never missed a beat. We were indestructible no matter what happened. Until those players finally ended their career and then the bottom fell out. It was absolutely the team not the coaches. I say we won a natty DESPITE Chris Lemonis.

 

[MagnoliaHunter]

Me too, except 15-45 is not 30 games under 0.500.

Related usage[edit]​

Teams are sometimes referred to as being over or under "five hundred", in comparison to a winning percentage of .500 (percentage being a misnomer in the usual North American expression; .500 meaning 50% in this context). The calculation for this is simple subtraction. For example, a team at 29–19 is "10 games over five hundred",[5] as they could lose their next 10 games and still have a .500 record, while a team at 12–17 would be "five games under five hundred",[6] as the quickest they could reach .500 would be by winning their next five games. "Above" and "below" can be substituted for "over" and "under", respectively.

Games behind - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Bobby Ricigliano]

Related usage[edit]​

Teams are sometimes referred to as being over or under "five hundred", in comparison to a winning percentage of .500 (percentage being a misnomer in the usual North American expression; .500 meaning 50% in this context). The calculation for this is simple subtraction. For example, a team at 29–19 is "10 games over five hundred",[5] as they could lose their next 10 games and still have a .500 record, while a team at 12–17 would be "five games under five hundred",[6] as the quickest they could reach .500 would be by winning their next five games. "Above" and "below" can be substituted for "over" and "under", respectively.

Games behind - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I see that, and it supports patdog's explanation. But, I still believe it's a misapplication of being "below" or "above" .500. If a 5-15 team had won 5 more games, they would be .500. Yes, they need to win 10 straight games to get back to .500, but that's a description of what has to happen in the future rather than how they got to 5-15 in the first place.

 

[patdog]

I see that, and it supports patdog's explanation. But, I still believe it's a misapplication of being "below" or "above" .500. If a 5-15 team had won 5 more games, they would be .500. Yes, they need to win 10 straight games to get back to .500, but that's a description of what has to happen in the future rather than how they got to 5-15 in the first place.

It doesn't seem to be the technically correct way to calculate the over/under .500 stat. But that's the way it's always been calculated, so that's just the way it is. Really, it's just two different ways of interpreting the question. It's how many games would you have to win (or lose) to get to .500 instead of how many more (or fewer) games have you won vs a .500 team that has played the same number of games.

 

[WilCoDawg]

I have no doubt Lem is in misery right now and is genuinely desperate to get the ship righted but it is obvious he cannot do it. So I would say to him, thank you for what you did for us but it is time to move on for the good of both parties.

And I really hate it for him because he really seems to be a Bulldog. The backstory of his dad really was the icing on the NC story. But he’s surely seeing that he is in over his head now.

 

[WilCoDawg]

He may be in misery right now, but he OBVIOUSLY sat on his fat *** since winning a Championship.
Or he was just never a good coach to begin with and we can only thank our Senior Leadership for winning our only baseball title.

“We will”. Seeing this on the back of his clipboard while he sat on the bucket made me want to make a meme of him from a screenshot.

 

[Podgy]

Don't like seeing someone get fired and I don't like firing people (well, I did for a few of them). But, it's not working out and the future doesn't look bright.

 

[ckDOG]

I am here to eat a crow dinner on this one. It PO'd me to no end to hear people make this claim and I called people out for doing it a few times but they were 100% right. Chris Lemonis is the Gene Chizik of College Baseball.

+1. Thought it was ridiculous. Turns out it was perfect.

 

[MSUDC11-2.0]

I think Bo Bounds is on to something here. The year Cann was fired and all that turmoil we STILL went to the CWS with perennial also ran Gary Henderson as interim coach. Then along came Lem and we never missed a beat. We were indestructible no matter what happened. Until those players finally ended their career and then the bottom fell out. It was absolutely the team not the coaches. I say we won a natty DESPITE Chris Lemonis.

We have been playing baseball for 134 years, have had generations of great players, and he is the only coach to win it all.

Ron Polk never won it all. John Cohen never won it all. Even looking at other great programs, Mike Martin, Dave Van Horn, Dan McDonnell, Jim Schlossnagle, Elliott Avent, just to name a few, have never won it all.

I realize downgrading what Lemonis did in 2021 makes it simpler to explain what is happening now, but we have to stop pretending that winning a national championship is easy. He deserves a ton of credit for 2021, regardless of how much it has unraveled since.

 

[travis.sixpack]

We have been playing baseball for 134 years, have had generations of great players, and he is the only coach to win it all.

Ron Polk never won it all. John Cohen never won it all. Even looking at other great programs, Mike Martin, Dave Van Horn, Dan McDonnell, Jim Schlossnagle, Elliott Avent, just to name a few, have never won it all.

I realize downgrading what Lemonis did in 2021 makes it simpler to explain what is happening now, but we have to stop pretending that winning a national championship is easy. He deserves a ton of credit for 2021, regardless of how much it has unraveled since.

The 4 year contract extension he got in 2021 (which included a raise last year) should be enough. Y’all need to decide if you want to be LSU or Coastal Carolina.

 

[Raiderdawg]

Me too, except 15-45 is not 30 games under 0.500.

Just so everyone is on the same page, the way the term is used in baseball, games under/over .500 is not a direct comparison of wins versus losses. It is how many games a team can lose in a row (games over .500) or win in a row (games under .500) to have an even record.

For example, from MLB, here is an article talking about the Dodgers being 50 games over .500 in 2017. Their record was 84-34, meaning they would have to lose 50 games in a row to be .500.

It works the same the way for losses. Here is Athletic article about the Mariners being 10 games under .500 at 19-29. (See: https://theathletic.com/3373440/2022/06/19/mariners-seattle-record/?amp=1).

So a team that is 15-45 would be 30 games under .500 and need to win 30 straight to get to be 45-45. Unless you believe MLB and the Athletic don’t know how to use the term.

 

[patdog]

We have been playing baseball for 134 years, have had generations of great players, and he is the only coach to win it all.

He is also the only coach we've ever had to put 2 seasons this bad together back to back, other than Cohen who at least had the excuse that it was his first 2 years inheriting a bankrupt program.

 

[thekimmer]

We have been playing baseball for 134 years, have had generations of great players, and he is the only coach to win it all.

Ron Polk never won it all. John Cohen never won it all. Even looking at other great programs, Mike Martin, Dave Van Horn, Dan McDonnell, Jim Schlossnagle, Elliott Avent, just to name a few, have never won it all.

I realize downgrading what Lemonis did in 2021 makes it simpler to explain what is happening now, but we have to stop pretending that winning a national championship is easy. He deserves a ton of credit for 2021, regardless of how much it has unraveled since.

Apparently Lem was just in the right place at the right time. Cohen got the AD job and Cann was hired very late as a first time HC after fall ball in November. Despite that, we still made it to a super in his first season. Cann then got fired 3 games into the next season for off-field issues but again, despite that we went to Omaha and came close to making the champ series. We opted not to hire the interim and brought in lem. Again we never missed a beat returned to Omaha in the next two chances & won the NC. Coaching carousel, off-field distractions. Nothing fazed us. We seemed indestructible. What was the constant in all that? Not the coaching staff for sure. It was that core team that was put assembled during that time. Once they were all gone we collapsed like a cheap card table. The main thing that I can give credit to Lem for is that he managed not to screw it up. But then that team proved they could put up with a lot and still keep it together.

 

[MSUDC11-2.0]

He is also the only coach we've ever had to put 2 seasons this bad together back to back, other than Cohen who at least had the excuse that it was his first 2 years inheriting a bankrupt program.

My point is that both things can be true with Lemonis. It is entirely possible he has had periods of being both very good and very bad. It is not as simple as some want to make it.

 

[patdog]

My point is that both things can be true with Lemonis. It is entirely possible he has had periods of being both very good and very bad. It is not as simple as some want to make it.

I don't think there's any question about that. 16 months ago, we all thought we had one of the 5 best coaches in the country.

 

[Drebin]

I"ll have some of that too............

I don't think there's a need to eat crow. I caught a fair amount of crap here for my Lemonis takes, but I understand why people didn't want to pull the trigger....the guy did win a natty.

My take on coaches has always been the same though...when you know, you know. Hanging onto a guy after he drove it into a ditch in hopes he can straighten it out almost never works out, and the longer you keep him, the deeper the hole is that you have to climb out later.

I'm grateful for that championship, but are we a championship program, or are we a team that had the right kind of players who got hot at the right time and had a lot of luck at the end of one season? Right now it looks more like the latter than the former. This program should be expected to at least host regionals every year.

 

[Drebin]

I don't think there's any question about that. 16 months ago, we all thought we had one of the 5 best coaches in the country.

I don't know. The evidence before us shows that he inherited a really good team and won big with it. But as those players left and his cycled in, we got progressively worse. We have been one of, if not THE worst team in the conference for two years running now. I think it's fair to question whether Lemonis has ever been worth a damn.

 

[patdog]

I don't know. The evidence before us shows that he inherited a really good team and won big with it. But as those players left and his cycled in, we got progressively worse. We have been one of, if not THE worst team in the conference for two years running now. I think it's fair to question whether Lemonis has ever been worth a damn.

In hindsight now, yeah. But before last season started, the general consensus was we had a great coach. We were wrong of course, but you couldn't have told us that back then.

 

[Seinfeld]

I don't think there's a need to eat crow. I caught a fair amount of crap here for my Lemonis takes, but I understand why people didn't want to pull the trigger....the guy did win a natty.

My take on coaches has always been the same though...when you know, you know. Hanging onto a guy after he drove it into a ditch in hopes he can straighten it out almost never works out, and the longer you keep him, the deeper the hole is that you have to climb out later.

I'm grateful for that championship, but are we a championship program, or are we a team that had the right kind of players who got hot at the right time and had a lot of luck at the end of one season? Right now it looks more like the latter than the former. This program should be expected to at least host regionals every year.

Your driving into the ditch comment triggered another thought that I think people really need to understand. These last two seasons haven’t been “disappointing”. Bama going 10-2 and missing the CFP is disappointing. Kentucky basketball “only” making a sweet 16 is disappointing.

MSU baseball being on track to finish dead last in the conference while missing the postseason for two straight seasons is not disappointment. It’s your 16-year old driving your brand new crew cab through your living room window, stepping out, and then pissing all over it to try to put the flames out. Saban may be the greatest college football coach of all time, but his *** would be fired before new years if he went 2-10 this season

 

[MSUDC11-2.0]

In hindsight now, yeah. But before last season started, the general consensus was we had a great coach. We were wrong of course, but you couldn't have told us that back then.

Yeah there were almost no signs of any issues with Lemonis prior to 2022. We were Preseason Top 5 last year and everyone expected another 20 SEC win type season.

Like I said, I think it’s easier for some to rationalize what’s happened if they chalk it up to “Lemonis was never good, it was all his players”. But I simply don’t believe that’s true.

 

[Drebin]

In hindsight now, yeah. But before last season started, the general consensus was we had a great coach. We were wrong of course, but you couldn't have told us that back then.

Some of us were kinda seeing it last year and commented as such, and took lots of grief for it. I take no solace in being right, but it wasn't exactly a foreign concept that we had problems at the time.