OT: Alec Baldwin to be charged with Involuntary Manslaughter

GloryDawg

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Just like other celebrities in California you will see a not guilty verdict. His punishment was the settlement.
 
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Bwifan

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He is going to regret doing that tv interview and saying he didn't pull the trigger. All top lawyers said until this case is closed he should keep his mouth shut and instead did that whole interview and all those statements can and will be used against him. This is going to be a battle of lawsuits between he and the girl who was in charge of hot ammo on the set on who really pulled the trigger. Why both are being charged with involuntary manslaughter.
 

Maroon Eagle

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The only thing that’s surprising is that it took so long.

Don’t be surprised if the victim’s family takes the side of Baldwin, the director, and producer(s). If I recall correctly, I think her widower was made a producer of the film which means it’s in the family’s best interest for Baldwin not to have a lengthy jail sentence.

The armorer - as previously mentioned - is going to be key here.
 
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Uncle Ruckus

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She Mate Me

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I have no knowledge about how firearms are used on sets, but how is it even possible and a live round makes it to a movie set? Why would there even be a possibility of that happening?

I don't think it's ever supposed to happen, which makes it seem that the armorer is on the hot seat.
 

johnson86-1

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He pointed a gun at someone and pulled the trigger without verifying the chamber was empty. That's negligence at best (and I really don't think it's anything more than that).

That's what he's being charged with, essentially criminal negligence. Notice the 18 month max sentence without the firearm enhancement.

If somebody had been messing around with a gun in any other circumstance and pointed at somebody and pulled the trigger assuming or trusting that somebody else's statement that the gun was empty, they would justifiably be charged with exactly this charge and the firearm enhancement, whether you agree with it or not as a matter of policy, would be rightly applied. The whole point of the enhancement is that firearms are inherently dangerous and you have a duty to exercise care and should be treated more harshly if you act negligently with such an obviously dangerous item.

In this case, I do think it's relevant that it was on a movie set, but I'm not sure if it should stop the application of the basic charges and enhancement or not. I can't believe he didn't know it was a real gun, so he was still pretty reckless. If he had pulled the trigger as part of the script, in my mind I think that would take this out of the criminal realm, subject to the stories about them knowingly and blatantly disregarding basic safety rules regarding live weapons on set. But if the stories are true that he was essentially messing around and pointed it at the director or whoever it was and pulled the trigger as a "joke", I think that probably should be criminal, although I still think that even if the firearm enhancement applies by the letter of the law, I'm not sure he should be subject to more than an 18 month sentence.
 

patdog

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That's what he's being charged with, essentially criminal negligence. Notice the 18 month max sentence without the firearm enhancement.

If somebody had been messing around with a gun in any other circumstance and pointed at somebody and pulled the trigger assuming or trusting that somebody else's statement that the gun was empty, they would justifiably be charged with exactly this charge and the firearm enhancement, whether you agree with it or not as a matter of policy, would be rightly applied. The whole point of the enhancement is that firearms are inherently dangerous and you have a duty to exercise care and should be treated more harshly if you act negligently with such an obviously dangerous item.

In this case, I do think it's relevant that it was on a movie set, but I'm not sure if it should stop the application of the basic charges and enhancement or not. I can't believe he didn't know it was a real gun, so he was still pretty reckless. If he had pulled the trigger as part of the script, in my mind I think that would take this out of the criminal realm, subject to the stories about them knowingly and blatantly disregarding basic safety rules regarding live weapons on set. But if the stories are true that he was essentially messing around and pointed it at the director or whoever it was and pulled the trigger as a "joke", I think that probably should be criminal, although I still think that even if the firearm enhancement applies by the letter of the law, I'm not sure he should be subject to more than an 18 month sentence.
One complicating factor for him is he was the executive producer of the movie as well. It's pretty clear the "tone at the top" regarding firearm safety on that set was very lax to say the least. So he'll have to be responsible for that too. For the record, I don't think he will, or should, do much jail time for it. I figure worst case, he'll get maybe 3 months.
 

Boom Boom

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That's what he's being charged with, essentially criminal negligence. Notice the 18 month max sentence without the firearm enhancement.

If somebody had been messing around with a gun in any other circumstance and pointed at somebody and pulled the trigger assuming or trusting that somebody else's statement that the gun was empty, they would justifiably be charged with exactly this charge and the firearm enhancement, whether you agree with it or not as a matter of policy, would be rightly applied. The whole point of the enhancement is that firearms are inherently dangerous and you have a duty to exercise care and should be treated more harshly if you act negligently with such an obviously dangerous item.

In this case, I do think it's relevant that it was on a movie set, but I'm not sure if it should stop the application of the basic charges and enhancement or not. I can't believe he didn't know it was a real gun, so he was still pretty reckless. If he had pulled the trigger as part of the script, in my mind I think that would take this out of the criminal realm, subject to the stories about them knowingly and blatantly disregarding basic safety rules regarding live weapons on set. But if the stories are true that he was essentially messing around and pointed it at the director or whoever it was and pulled the trigger as a "joke", I think that probably should be criminal, although I still think that even if the firearm enhancement applies by the letter of the law, I'm not sure he should be subject to more than an 18 month sentence.
The problem here is he was handed the gun by a (supposed) professional for the purposes of it being a prop, and can not be expected to have any expectation that it could ever fire.
 

johnson86-1

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One complicating factor for him is he was the executive producer of the movie as well. It's pretty clear the "tone at the top" regarding firearm safety on that set was very lax to say the least. So he'll have to be responsible for that too. For the record, I don't think he will, or should, do much jail time for it. I figure worst case, he'll get maybe 3 months.
I don't think he will either. And provided nothing really bad comes out, I don't think he should, provided he can pay the family enough that they bless a deal with no jail time. That's probably an unpopular belief I have, but if you have the resources to at least somewhat compensate the victims, I'd rather the victims get more money and the state not spend as much money incarcerating the perpetrator (whether with no jail or less jail) in cases involving criminal negligence or reckless behavior that wasn't intended to hurt anybody.

One really bad thing that could come out is there was a rumor that they were using "prop" guns to do target shooting on breaks. I'm pretty sure that was just something completely made up and put out on the internet because it's so off the wall, but if there was that kind of recklessness going on, probably shouldn't be able to buy his way out of significant jail time.
 

DAWGSANDSAINTS

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I have no knowledge about how firearms are used on sets, but how is it even possible and a live round makes it to a movie set? Why would there even be a possibility of that happening?
^THIS^
I’ve pondered this same question since it happened.
Just unfathomable to me how that happened.
 

johnson86-1

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The problem here is he was handed the gun by a (supposed) professional for the purposes of it being a prop, and can not be expected to have any expectation that it could ever fire.
And, if the shot was part of the scene, I think that clears him. But I don't think the shot was part of the scene, hence his story about not pulling the trigger.
 

Boom Boom

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And, if the shot was part of the scene, I think that clears him. But I don't think the shot was part of the scene, hence his story about not pulling the trigger.
Thats a factor, but IMO irrelevant. For all intents and purposes, he was handed a prop. Might as well have been a water gun. You can't be reckless with something you have no reasonable expectation of being dangerous. That would be like charging vehicular homicide on a driver because the repair shop cut the brakes by accident.

Now, if it was a known live weapon and he acted recklessly with it, absolutely.
 

patdog

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Thats a factor, but IMO irrelevant. For all intents and purposes, he was handed a prop. Might as well have been a water gun. You can't be reckless with something you have no reasonable expectation of being dangerous. That would be like charging vehicular homicide on a driver because the repair shop cut the brakes by accident.

Now, if it was a known live weapon and he acted recklessly with it, absolutely.
He knew it was a real gun.
 
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patdog

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But one either altered to not fire, or not loaded. A prop.
He knew it wasn't altered not to fire. He assumed it wasn't loaded because it was supposed to be checked by an overworked armorer who was forced to work two jobs on that film. Which might be more of a mitigating factor if he wasn't ultimately the one who forced her to work two jobs.
 

johnson86-1

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Thats a factor, but IMO irrelevant. For all intents and purposes, he was handed a prop. Might as well have been a water gun. You can't be reckless with something you have no reasonable expectation of being dangerous. That would be like charging vehicular homicide on a driver because the repair shop cut the brakes by accident.

Now, if it was a known live weapon and he acted recklessly with it, absolutely.

I don't think this is right, even though lots of places reported it as a prop gun (which it obviously wasn't). If it was supposed to be a prop gun that couldn't fire, then that should more or less clear Baldwin. But it sounds like they were actually firing the gun in certain scenes? If he took what he knew was a real gun and relied on somebody else telling him that wasn't loaded, and then shot it as not part of the scene, that seems like criminal negligence to me.

Maybe that seems harsh to people that have not been around guns, but I think most people that have been around guns and taught to handle them responsibly would see pointing a real gun at somebody and pulling the trigger as unconscionable. But I guess on a set you may occasionally break that rule? Are there shots where they actually fire blanks (which can still be dangerous at short range?) where they can't use camera angles to keep everybody away from where the gun is pointed when it's shot?

Not sure if it should, but I could probably be swayed depending on how guns are usually handled on sets. If they are usually cavalier, then I think I could be convinced that falls on the armorer. If they are usually treated appropriately like the firearms they are, and this set was uniquely cavalier, then that might convince me that some jail time should be required.
 

Drebin

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Thats a factor, but IMO irrelevant. For all intents and purposes, he was handed a prop. Might as well have been a water gun. You can't be reckless with something you have no reasonable expectation of being dangerous. That would be like charging vehicular homicide on a driver because the repair shop cut the brakes by accident.

Now, if it was a known live weapon and he acted recklessly with it, absolutely.
It was a known live weapon. It was supposed to have a dummy round in it, or no round at all. Dummy rounds can malfunction and cause serious injury. Everyone on earth knows to never assume a gun is empty. There are risks associated with handling a gun, regardless of what you assume is or isn't in it.

His explanation that he didn't pull the trigger is full on moronic. It's the explanation of an eight year old child that gets caught doing something.

He pointed the gun and pulled the trigger. Whether or not he thought it was empty or had a blank in it is irrelevant. He was reckless by definition of the law, and he should be held responsible. He'll probably skate with some probation or something because of who he is.

Not surprised to see you taking up for Alec Freaking Baldwin, though.
 

LordMcBuckethead

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The only thing that’s surprising is that it took so long.

Don’t be surprised if the victim’s family takes the side of Baldwin, the director, and producer(s). If I recall correctly, I think her widower was made a producer of the film which means it’s in the family’s best interest for Baldwin not to have a lengthy jail sentence.

The armorer - as previously mentioned - is going to be key here.
Regardless of what happened, only four things matter. Who brought the live ammo on set, who was in charge of the live ammo, who was in charge of the firearm, and who handed it to Alec. Those are precisely the 4 things I would bring up to the jury. An actor was handed a gun, he went through the walk-through on the scene. Pointed the gun as instructed, pulled the trigger whether intending to or not.

Alec didn't load the weapon.
Alec was not in responsible control of the weapon or ammo.
Alec was there simply to do the prep for his job.
A terrible thing happened due to other people's professional negligence.

Until I see the actual evidence, this is my take.
 

LordMcBuckethead

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Were you ever taught gun safety? Or common sense gun protocols? I knew better than Baldwin when I was 6 when I got a Daisy BB Gun thanks to my Dad.
When the scene calls for you to point the gun at the camera and pull the trigger, that is what you do.
 

Boom Boom

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I don't think this is right, even though lots of places reported it as a prop gun (which it obviously wasn't). If it was supposed to be a prop gun that couldn't fire, then that should more or less clear Baldwin. But it sounds like they were actually firing the gun in certain scenes? If he took what he knew was a real gun and relied on somebody else telling him that wasn't loaded, and then shot it as not part of the scene, that seems like criminal negligence to me.

Maybe that seems harsh to people that have not been around guns, but I think most people that have been around guns and taught to handle them responsibly would see pointing a real gun at somebody and pulling the trigger as unconscionable. But I guess on a set you may occasionally break that rule? Are there shots where they actually fire blanks (which can still be dangerous at short range?) where they can't use camera angles to keep everybody away from where the gun is pointed when it's shot?

Not sure if it should, but I could probably be swayed depending on how guns are usually handled on sets. If they are usually cavalier, then I think I could be convinced that falls on the armorer. If they are usually treated appropriately like the firearms they are, and this set was uniquely cavalier, then that might convince me that some jail time should be required.
Except the person he relied on was a professional whose sole job was to do that. SHE was clearly negligent, and I just don't see how you can transfer her negligence onto Baldwin. Relying on a professional to have done their job seems like a bedrock principle of law as acceptable conduct, not negligence.

Are you saying that every single actor that we can find video of pointing a prop can be charged? Or just Baldwin because something bad happened?
 

Boom Boom

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I agree with most of what you write.

A point here that could be key is Baldwin's non-acting role as a producer of the movie.
IMO, only if he had actual responsibility in that role. If its a title only thing, it's irrelevant. But the law may impart importance on it, I don't know.
 

Boom Boom

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Were you ever taught gun safety? Or common sense gun protocols? I knew better than Baldwin when I was 6 when I got a Daisy BB Gun thanks to my Dad.
Yes, but what someone should or should not do is not the same as legal or illegal conduct.
 

IBleedMaroonDawg

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You check any gun handed to you.

Fake, real, loaded, unloaded... even if God hands it to you so you can make sure if it is real if it's not real and whether or not it's loaded.

BTW you should treat and handle every gun that can fire anything like it is loaded until you can personally determine what state your gun is in.

The minute you quit respecting a gun you will treat them all dangerously
 

Boom Boom

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It was a known live weapon. It was supposed to have a dummy round in it, or no round at all. Dummy rounds can malfunction and cause serious injury. Everyone on earth knows to never assume a gun is empty. There are risks associated with handling a gun, regardless of what you assume is or isn't in it.

His explanation that he didn't pull the trigger is full on moronic. It's the explanation of an eight year old child that gets caught doing something.

He pointed the gun and pulled the trigger. Whether or not he thought it was empty or had a blank in it is irrelevant. He was reckless by definition of the law, and he should be held responsible. He'll probably skate with some probation or something because of who he is.

Not surprised to see you taking up for Alec Freaking Baldwin, though.
My take would be the same regardless of the person. Not surprised you don't think that way.

IMO, it's not negligence to assume a professional has done their job correctly. But if I get the chance I'll see what the law says on the matter.
 

johnson86-1

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Except the person he relied on was a professional whose sole job was to do that. SHE was clearly negligent, and I just don't see how you can transfer her negligence onto Baldwin. Relying on a professional to have done their job seems like a bedrock principle of law as acceptable conduct, not negligence.
I think we're talking past each other some.
Scenario 1. Armorer gave him a gun that was supposed to be disabled and he pulled the trigger as part of a scene, he's clear.
Scenario 2. Armorer gave him a gun that was supposed to be disabled and he pulled the trigger screwing around, probably clear? Not sure how to judge that one. If somebody pulled a trigger because they thought the safety was on, I don't think that's any defense. But if it's supposed to be nonfunctioning and he's never seen it function, that's different.
Scenario 3. Armorer gave him a gun that was supposed to be loaded with a dummy or unload and he pulled the trigger as part of a scene, probably clear.
Scenario 4. Armorer gave him a gun that was supposed to be loaded with a dummy or unloaded and he pulled the trigger not part of a scene, seems like he's being charged correctly. Can't use somebody else's negligence to excuse your reckless behavior. The potential for a mistake is exactly why it's reckless.

This is all obviously just my intuition of how it should work, not actual analysis of New Mexico's law
Are you saying that every single actor that we can find video of pointing a prop can be charged? Or just Baldwin because something bad happened?
We often differentiate between the same acts based on whether something bad happened, even if logically the culpability is the same. Hell, we give people a break on attempting to do something bad and just being unsuccessful at it. But if actors are recklessly pointing guns at other people and their excuse is they're using a real gun as a prop, I'm guessing that probably could be charged in a lot of jurisdictions even if it isn't in practice, just like a lot of other reckless acts.
 

PapaDawg

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Dawgbite

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I fell in and out of love with single action pistols years ago and I have a theory about how this happened. First, the blanks are loaded with a manual reloading press just like millions of shooters have in the basement or shop. Someone was loading blanks and got distracted by a phone call or something and somehow got a live round from a previous loading session mixed in the box. Blanks are normally loaded with BBs in place of the powder charge so that the end user can shake the cartridge and it will rattle thus identifying it as a blank. The reloader failed by mixing a live round in a box of blanks. The movies armorer failed by not shaking each and ever round before putting it in the gun. Alec Baldwin failed by not checking behind the armorer. Now for the shooting itself. Old original Colt, Walker, and S&W SA pistols had the firing pin on the hammer. The only safe way to carry one was with the hammer over an empty cylinder. The famous six shooter was actually a five shooter. Modern SA pistols like the Ruger have a transfer bar system that allows it to be carried with six loaded cylinders. It can’t fire without a specific set of events. You have to cock it and then pull the trigger for it to fire. You can’t pull the trigger and then cock the hammer with your thumb and release it making it fire. The original Colts and the plethora of Italian copies on the market can fire this way. It quiet common event if trying to quick draw to pull the trigger with you first finger and you can pull the hammer back with your thumb and since the trigger is pulled there is nothing to catch and hold the hammer in the cocked position. When you release the hammer with your thumb it falls and fires. This is likely what caused this shooting. Unfamiliar shooter instinctively put their finger in the trigger guard and often depress the trigger, the shooter then cocks the hammer expecting it to catch but since the trigger is depressed the hammer falls and the gun goes bang. This is unfamiliarity on the part of the shooter.
 

Boom Boom

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I think we're talking past each other some.
Scenario 1. Armorer gave him a gun that was supposed to be disabled and he pulled the trigger as part of a scene, he's clear.
Scenario 2. Armorer gave him a gun that was supposed to be disabled and he pulled the trigger screwing around, probably clear? Not sure how to judge that one. If somebody pulled a trigger because they thought the safety was on, I don't think that's any defense. But if it's supposed to be nonfunctioning and he's never seen it function, that's different.
Scenario 3. Armorer gave him a gun that was supposed to be loaded with a dummy or unload and he pulled the trigger as part of a scene, probably clear.
Scenario 4. Armorer gave him a gun that was supposed to be loaded with a dummy or unloaded and he pulled the trigger not part of a scene, seems like he's being charged correctly. Can't use somebody else's negligence to excuse your reckless behavior. The potential for a mistake is exactly why it's reckless.

This is all obviously just my intuition of how it should work, not actual analysis of New Mexico's law

We often differentiate between the same acts based on whether something bad happened, even if logically the culpability is the same. Hell, we give people a break on attempting to do something bad and just being unsuccessful at it. But if actors are recklessly pointing guns at other people and their excuse is they're using a real gun as a prop, I'm guessing that probably could be charged in a lot of jurisdictions even if it isn't in practice, just like a lot of other reckless acts.
Not really. I think the difference is you are defining behavior with a prop gun as reckless, when it's really hard to exhibit reckless behavior with something that's supposed to be harmless per the professional that handed it to you. I think you can define it that way for a scenario where a buddy handed you a gun and said it was unloaded, but I think the standard has to be different when it's a professional that hands it to you and when the whole reason you have it is for a job.

You've also got to consider that there are supposed to be safeguards in place on the job to prevent this. That has to affect any judgment of reasonableness as to whether his handling of a prop gun is reckless. It's entirely different from a backyard scenario. I just don't see how anyone can conclude anything other than its reasonable to assume your prop gun doesn't have a live round. Sure, not the best thing to do, accidents happen, but it has to be reasonable to think surely no one loaded a live round in this.

But there's got to be some case law somewhere, will be interesting to find out what it is.
 
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