OT - Home HVAC

[greenbean.sixpack]

I have read much about new regulations taking effect in Jan that will increase the cost of home HVAC units 20 to 30% (the minimum SEER is going to 15). My unit is 16 years old and I have been told the life span is usually 20 years or less. I was quoted $6900 to replace my outside unit, furnace and coils with a 4 ton Rheem unit (14 SEER).

What say the pack? Obviously most of this info is coming from HVAC tech who are want to sell units.

I would downsize from a 5 ton unit as i put a mini split upstairs, should i leave those vents in place (and just close them) or have them cut off and sealed up at the main duct? There is also a return up there, should I seal it off or leave it open?

 

[patdog]

Don't replace your unit until you have to. If you've had no problems with it, you may get 4-10 more years out of it. Even assuming it lasts the expected 20 years, you've still got 4 more years with it. If you got a new unit now, it would already be 20% through its life by then.

 

[Dawgbite]

When I retired two years ago I planned to replace mine which was 12 years old just as a preventative measure and get that cost out of the way. My dealer who is also a friend advised me not to do it. He said the 10-20 year old units are better made and will probably outlast the newer units. He said that imported parts , cost cutting, and unrealistic efficiency requirements have ruined the quality of units.

 

[dorndawg]

Having just replaced all inside/outside units, that's a good price (albeit I did get a 16 SEER). If it's not giving you any trouble, I wouldn't worry about replacing it.

 

[johnson86-1]

I have read much about new regulations taking effect in Jan that will increase the cost of home HVAC units 20 to 30% (the minimum SEER is going to 15). My unit is 16 years old and I have been told the life span is usually 20 years or less. I was quoted $6900 to replace my outside unit, furnace and coils with a 4 ton Rheem unit (14 SEER).

What say the pack? Obviously most of this info is coming from HVAC tech who are want to sell units.

I would downsize from a 5 ton unit as i put a mini split upstairs, should i leave those vents in place (and just close them) or have them cut off and sealed up at the main duct? There is also a return up there, should I seal it off or leave it open?

No real knowledge but can confirm that the 15 Seer minimum for the south does go into effect in 2023. I have a 16 Seer because when I ran the numbers on my house, the projected savings were worth it compared to the 14 SEER. And I have a pretty energy efficient house with spray foam roof capsule. Energy efficient windows and not a lot of them. Only inefficient thing I have are exterior wood doors, front and back. Of course I may have been getting a high number on the 14 SEER unit that made it look better. Another thing to think about is how loud the unit is if you have a bedroom close. The 16 Seer will likely be quieter, especially at night when it's not having to work as hard. The 14 SEER is going to cut on and off more and be louder when it does.

All that said, I would not rush to replace an AC now just to avoid having to pay for a 15 or 16 Seer down the road. The flipside is if you don't have a connection with an HVAC person, it's nice to be able to get quotes and make a decision when you are not sweating balls and while units may last twenty years, I have had one last 16 years and one last 7 years (prior owner bought highest energy efficiency available at the time and the technology wasn't ready) and the other ones have all been under 12 years when I have moved, so I would guess there's a reasonble likelihood it's going to need a repair that is expensive enough you want to replace it in the next few years.

 

[40mikemike]

Don’t replace that unit until you absolutely have to do so. When you do replace that unit, cap the un-used vents at the trunk and cap that return you aren’t using. No sense in blowing air through a line you aren’t using or sucking air through a return that isn’t being used.

 

[Hugh's Burner Phone]

Had to replace the outside unit last year and now the coil in the inside unit has gone out. Trying to decide whether or not just to replace the coil or pay an extra $700 and just replace the entire thing. I'm heavily leaning towards replacing the entire thing.

 

[FormerBully]

As someone who works in the commercial HVAC industry, I would not replace my unit. The average age of a unit is 15 years, but if you do proper maintenance (cleaning coils, changing filters, etc.) you can get 20 years or beyond. Also, you are losing your investment by changing it out now. Let's say your current unit cost you $5,000 to install. If you changed the unit out today, that unit cost you $312 a year. If you wait and install a new unit after 20 years, that unit cost you $250 a year. I hope that breakdown makes sense. In summary, do not change the unit.

Also, be careful with a mini-split. Recently we have seen a lot of issues with those units due to them being made cheaply. I am seeing units needing to be replaced or compressor failures only after a few years after installation.

 

[horshack.sixpack]

I have read much about new regulations taking effect in Jan that will increase the cost of home HVAC units 20 to 30% (the minimum SEER is going to 15). My unit is 16 years old and I have been told the life span is usually 20 years or less. I was quoted $6900 to replace my outside unit, furnace and coils with a 4 ton Rheem unit (14 SEER).

What say the pack? Obviously most of this info is coming from HVAC tech who are want to sell units.

I would downsize from a 5 ton unit as i put a mini split upstairs, should i leave those vents in place (and just close them) or have them cut off and sealed up at the main duct? There is also a return up there, should I seal it off or leave it open?

Don't replace until it breaks. Leave your duct work. It may not be "enough" without the mini-split, but it will for sure be better than nothing if/when the mini split dies. You can close/cover the supply/return if you like while you don't need it.

 

[greenbean.sixpack]

As someone who works in the commercial HVAC industry, I would not replace my unit. The average age of a unit is 15 years, but if you do proper maintenance (cleaning coils, changing filters, etc.) you can get 20 years or beyond. Also, you are losing your investment by changing it out now. Let's say your current unit cost you $5,000 to install. If you changed the unit out today, that unit cost you $312 a year. If you wait and install a new unit after 20 years, that unit cost you $250 a year. I hope that breakdown makes sense. In summary, do not change the unit.

Also, be careful with a mini-split. Recently we have seen a lot of issues with those units due to them being made cheaply. I am seeing units needing to be replaced or compressor failures only after a few years after installation.

We've had the mini-split for several years. Found out this year that the blower (not just the filters) need to be cleaned. The HVAC tech blew a ton of lint, dust, mildew and all manner of ungodly stuff out of it.

The upstairs return for the main unit, should i block that off (with cardboard or something at the wall) or leave it open?

 

[greenbean.sixpack]

As someone who works in the commercial HVAC industry, I would not replace my unit. The average age of a unit is 15 years, but if you do proper maintenance (cleaning coils, changing filters, etc.) you can get 20 years or beyond. Also, you are losing your investment by changing it out now. Let's say your current unit cost you $5,000 to install. If you changed the unit out today, that unit cost you $312 a year. If you wait and install a new unit after 20 years, that unit cost you $250 a year. I hope that breakdown makes sense. In summary, do not change the unit.

Also, be careful with a mini-split. Recently we have seen a lot of issues with those units due to them being made cheaply. I am seeing units needing to be replaced or compressor failures only after a few years after installation.

But that doesn't that $5k unit cost go up to $7500 - $10k or more on 1 Jan 2023?

 

[patdog]

But that doesn't that $5k unit cost go up to $7500 - $10k or more on 1 Jan 2023?

Is it going up 20%-30% or 50%-100% or more? It's not going to go up that much. Probably go up to $6,000-$7,000 tops. That you probably won't have to pay for several years (unless the unit is giving you problems). I'd rather pay $7,000 5 years from now for a unit that will last until 2047 than $5,000 today for one that will need to be replaced in 2022 (assuming 20 year lives for all units). If your HVAC dealer is pushing this, you need to get a new dealer.

 

[greenbean.sixpack]

We've had the mini-split for several years. Found out this year that the blower (not just the filters) need to be cleaned. The HVAC tech blew a ton of lint, dust, mildew and all manner of ungodly stuff out of it.

Is it going up 20%-30% or 50%-100% or more? It's not going to go up that much. Probably go up to $6,000-$7,000 tops. That you probably won't have to pay for several years (unless the unit is giving you problems). I'd rather pay $7,000 5 years from now for a unit that will last until 2047 than $5,000 today for one that will need to be replaced in 2022 (assuming 20 year lives for all units). If your HVAC dealer is pushing this, you need to get a new dealer.

No HVAC dealer, just reading what others are thinking about. No one knows the amount it will go up, but everything I have read is there will be a significant increase in the unit cost itself AND inflation has to be factored in. Obviously, the 2023 unit will be one SEER rating more energy efficient, so that needs to be factored in also. If my unit goes out next summer, I may pay $2-3k more than replacing it now, but it could last another four years. My current unit is 16 years old, but the unit before it only lasted 12 years. I've been averaging replacing one capacitor and a refrigerant charge per year for the past couple of years. To make this calculation even more complicated there are some tax savings (a couple of hundred bucks) for more energy-efficient units installed in 2023, if certain conditions are met.

On the other side of the house, I have a 2 1/2 unit that is also 16 years old. I'm not considering replacing it as it only covers the master bed/bath and I could install a mini-split for that if replacement costs were to get out of hand.

This is the same decision one makes when he has a 15-year-old vehicle with 300k miles. Ride it until a major repair is required, then buy another vehicle (a year down the road), or get a new one now. There are pros and cons either way.

 

[MtPigsmore]

I own a solo operated HVAC company in the Madison area. Since my username has no indication to my company name I can give a bit more info.

First understand that HVAC profit margins are ridiculous. Currently a 3 ton 16 seer complete unit cost is near $2,500 total. Your quotes will range from $5,000 - $12,000 depending on the shadiness/greediness of the company. Yes the seer2 will be more expensive, but it will not be drastic from a unit cost perspective. It's just that the contractors will use this as another sales tactic similar to when r22 dropped off.

 

[greenbean.sixpack]

I own a solo operated HVAC company in the Madison area. Since my username has no indication to my company name I can give a bit more info.

First understand that HVAC profit margins are ridiculous. Currently a 3 ton 16 seer complete unit cost is near $2,500 total. Your quotes will range from $5,000 - $12,000 depending on the shadiness/greediness of the company. Yes the seer2 will be more expensive, but it will not be drastic from a unit cost perspective. It's just that the contractors will use this as another sales tactic similar to when r22 dropped off.

What do you think about my upstairs return, should I block it off, or leave it open? I have a mini-split up there and have the registers closed (the registers come off the main duct from my big unit).

 

[MtPigsmore]

What do you think about my upstairs return, should I block it off, or leave it open? I have a mini-split up there and have the registers closed (the registers come off the main duct from my big unit).

Only take them out if your actually downsizing the unit from a 5 to something smaller. A 5 ton needs a lot of air going to the unit. Personally I'd leave it alone or install dampers at the plenum so you can easily add them back on in the future.

 

[greenbean.sixpack]

Only take them out if your actually downsizing the unit from a 5 to something smaller. A 5 ton needs a lot of air going to the unit. Personally I'd leave it alone or install dampers at the plenum so you can easily add them back on in the future.

Thanks! I'll leave the return open. We need to give you an official title, Like "SPS HVAC Guru."

 

[HotMop]

As someone who works in the commercial HVAC industry, I would not replace my unit. The average age of a unit is 15 years, but if you do proper maintenance (cleaning coils, changing filters, etc.) you can get 20 years or beyond. Also, you are losing your investment by changing it out now. Let's say your current unit cost you $5,000 to install. If you changed the unit out today, that unit cost you $312 a year. If you wait and install a new unit after 20 years, that unit cost you $250 a year. I hope that breakdown makes sense. In summary, do not change the unit.

Also, be careful with a mini-split. Recently we have seen a lot of issues with those units due to them being made cheaply. I am seeing units needing to be replaced or compressor failures only after a few years after installation.

Just buy a Gree, top notch Chinese manufacturing. **************

 

[ababyatemydingo]

This won't address your question, but I went down a rabbit hole when researching replacing my system a few years back, and here's what I found. You pretty much want to stay with one of these systems. They are ranked as follows:
#1 Trane

#2 Carrier

#3 Lennox

#4 American Standard (made by Trane)

#5 bryant (made by Carrier)

Rheem and RUUD are middle of the road systems

You want a 2-stage system

Lennox makes the best variable speed system. Keeps home within half a degree of desired temp. Quietest. WiFi

 

[dawgman42]

Stay with #1 or #2. Lennox is trash, and their reliability is horrible. All of these vendors will have love stories and horror stories, but I have seen more problems firsthand with Lennox systems, and they've cost me many thousands of dollars in repairs even when being well maintained.

If it were my money, I'd go with Trane first and Carrier second.

 

[615dawg]

I replaced mine a couple of summers back. Got a 25 SEER Lennox Signature unit. Its been okay. I don't like the thermostat that you are mandated to use with those units. I replaced a builder's grade Goodman and my Entergy bill went down $50/month.

I went through Costco and got a $1900 rebate from Lennox and 15% back on a Costco cash card.

 

[BigBully]

I just replaced my 16 y/o HVAC unit a few months at with a 22 SEER, variable speed Bryant unit. I live at the beach in FL and I was surprised my old unit (Trane) lasted this long with the amount of sea salt we have). Before I replaced my unit, I was paying around $450 / mo in the summers on a 1,700 sq ft condo. I expect to get at least 15 yrs of use out of the new system and factoring in that I'm seeing around a 50% reduction in A/C cost, the business case made sense in my situation. If you're getting a 4 ton until in the $5k - $10k range, you are getting at deal.

 

[Crazy Cotton]

Went through this last year as a consumer - did a good bit or research as I have 5K square feet to heat and cool. An advantage of newer units is multi-speed/stage compressors furnaces and fans. Cost a little more, but I did that and I'm glad I did, I went with a 2 stage. the unit will kick on at the lower speed first, and run longer than a traditional unit. Advantage in the summer of a longer run time is apparently better regulation of humidity in the house, and the lower fan speed at the exchanger is less noise - when it is running at the lower speed I don't even know it's on unless I stand over a vent. My energy bill went down about 20% with a noticeable increase in comfort and temperature regulation.

 

[horshack.sixpack]

This won't address your question, but I went down a rabbit hole when researching replacing my system a few years back, and here's what I found. You pretty much want to stay with one of these systems. They are ranked as follows:
#1 Trane

#2 Carrier

#3 Lennox

#4 American Standard (made by Trane)

#5 bryant (made by Carrier)

Rheem and RUUD are middle of the road systems

You want a 2-stage system

Lennox makes the best variable speed system. Keeps home within half a degree of desired temp. Quietest. WiFi

I went Lennox on my most recent two units. They do very well and have given me no trouble at all. I did not do 2-stage. My directions to my HVAC guys s get me the best SEER without going to all the fancy multi-stage stuff that was sure to break. So far, so good.

 

[johnson86-1]

I just replaced my 16 y/o HVAC unit a few months at with a 22 SEER, variable speed Bryant unit. I live at the beach in FL and I was surprised my old unit (Trane) lasted this long with the amount of sea salt we have). Before I replaced my unit, I was paying around $450 / mo in the summers on a 1,700 sq ft condo. I expect to get at least 15 yrs of use out of the new system and factoring in that I'm seeing around a 50% reduction in A/C cost, the business case made sense in my situation. If you're getting a 4 ton until in the $5k - $10k range, you are getting at deal.

Unless your electricity is insanely expensive, I would have thought a $450 bill for 1700 sq ft meant you had lots of low hanging fruit from insulation and possibly window replacement (although that's not low hanging, it can be dramatic). I guess maybe all that's out of your control with a condo though.

 

[greenbean.sixpack]

I just replaced my 16 y/o HVAC unit a few months at with a 22 SEER, variable speed Bryant unit. I live at the beach in FL and I was surprised my old unit (Trane) lasted this long with the amount of sea salt we have). Before I replaced my unit, I was paying around $450 / mo in the summers on a 1,700 sq ft condo. I expect to get at least 15 yrs of use out of the new system and factoring in that I'm seeing around a 50% reduction in A/C cost, the business case made sense in my situation. If you're getting a 4 ton until in the $5k - $10k range, you are getting at deal.

I was quoted $6900 even for a 4-ton, 14 SEER Rheem, with a 10-year warranty (for whatever good that is). This is for everything, the outside unit and coils and furnace in the attic. My current unit is an ARI 5-ton 13 SEER (it goes through at least one capacitor and a refrigerant recharge per year), my summer electricity bills are insanely expensive ($500 and $600 for the hottest months - 3000 sf 2-story house). All neighbors who have changed out units in the past 2-3 years say their eclectic bills have decreased dramatically.

 

[HotMop]

I was quoted $6900 even for a 4-ton, 14 SEER Rheem, with a 10-year warranty (for whatever good that is). This is for everything, the outside unit and coils and furnace in the attic. My current unit is an ARI 5-ton 13 SEER (it goes through at least one capacitor and a refrigerant recharge per year), my summer electricity bills are insanely expensive ($500 and $600 for the hottest months - 3000 sf 2-story house). All neighbors who have changed out units in the past 2-3 years say their eclectic bills have decreased dramatically.

Rheem is a trash product, If you want to go for an economy brand go with Goodman.

I was an engineer with one of the HVAC companies listed above for 15 years and did lots of teardowns on competitor products so I can give you the lowdown on most brands.

Also, look at Daikin. They have a product that I'd put above Trane and Carrier. It's a Japanese company but all of the US products are built in Houston.

 

[MtPigsmore]

Rheem is a trash product, If you want to go for an economy brand go with Goodman.

I was an engineer with one of the HVAC companies listed above for 15 years and did lots of teardowns on competitor products so I can give you the lowdown on most brands.

Also, look at Daikin. They have a product that I'd put above Trane and Carrier. It's a Japanese company but all of the US products are built in Houston.

How do you claim Rheem is trash? When you find a unit that is 20+ yrs old it's usually a Rheem or Trane. It's manufactured in Mexico along with the majority of the other companies.

Daikin is owned by Goodman and made in Taiwan. In my area they are the cheapest unit cost you can find and price match anyone. Hell you can go to Jackson supply and pick one up without a license if you have cash. Goodman coils are lucky to make it 10 yrs and the companies that throw them in new houses rarely register them to the 1st owner giving them only 5 yr warranty.

 

[Preacher Franklin]

Bryant/Carrier units are hard to beat. I wish my 22 year old 5 Ton Carrier would go out so I could upgrade.

 

[baseballnerd]

Wish I could have read this thread earlier. But just for the cost in your post. I just replaced our 20 yr old leaking unit with a new Carrier. About 7000. So your quote may be ok.

 

[HotMop]

How do you claim Rheem is trash? When you find a unit that is 20+ yrs old it's usually a Rheem or Trane. It's manufactured in Mexico along with the majority of the other companies.

Daikin is owned by Goodman and made in Taiwan. In my area they are the cheapest unit cost you can find and price match anyone. Hell you can go to Jackson supply and pick one up without a license if you have cash. Goodman coils are lucky to make it 10 yrs and the companies that throw them in new houses rarely register them to the 1st owner giving them only 5 yr

 

[HotMop]

How do you claim Rheem is trash? When you find a unit that is 20+ yrs old it's usually a Rheem or Trane. It's manufactured in Mexico along with the majority of the other companies.

Daikin is owned by Goodman and made in Taiwan. In my area they are the cheapest unit cost you can find and price match anyone. Hell you can go to Jackson supply and pick one up without a license if you have cash. Goodman coils are lucky to make it 10 yrs and the companies that throw them in new houses rarely register them to the 1st owner giving them only 5 yr

How wrong can you be in one post? Daikin is a Japenese company and they make their units on Houston. Daikin purchased Goodman so Daikin is not owned by Goodman. Daikin purchased Goodman so they could have a contractor brand presence in the U.S.