forgive me if this has been discussed, as I usually only stay on the Mc Andrew board, but I ran across this Youtube of a finals I think in VA. I think the kid has a least a reversal to win the states. Upon further review, which really looks like a discussion not a tv review, they say no and the other kid won. So I think I have it qued up to the good part, and am asking the experts here what they think. I think the kid was screwed.
OT I would like help reviewing a call from the VA? state HS meet
- Thread starter s1uggo72
- Start date
Appears to be a total screw job to me. Even if you want to say it was not a reversal and he shouldn't get those back points then you would have to try and put time on the clock from were that actually awarded him the reversal and let them go from there. As the announcers commented, the kid quit wrestling after he saw he was given the reversal and the ref had 2 back points in the bank for him. That was horrible.
A lot to unpack here.
to @s1uggo72's comments:
- You can not do a TV, video, or any type of electronic review in HS wrestling. That is specifically stated in the NFHS rules, which govern HS wrestling in the USA. A discussion was all that the refs could do. College and international wrestling permit video review.
to @BeerLion's comments:
- no, you would not go back to where the REV was signaled if you later waved it off. The concept of going back is not based on signaling something that you later wave off -- it occurs when you incorrectly apply a rule or realize the wrestlers started (usually on a restart) in the wrong position, etc. This is called dead time because it's time in the match that should not have occurred due to the incorrect rule application, the wrestlers starting in the wrong position, etc.
- it's not uncommon for refs to wave off points. It most frequently happens when you award a point for an ESC and then decide that the wrestler had not really gotten free, or if you award 2 points for a TD and quickly determine that the criteria for a TD were not met. (That's also why most refs learn to hold their calls -- nothing wrong with being a little slow with a call if it's correct -- despite coaches and fans screaming "2" (for a TD) or "1" (for an esc).
General comments:
- to set the bigger picture, probably the toughest call in HS wrestling is a reversal. The requirements for a reversal are different (less demanding) than those for a TD. And yet, wrestlers, coaches, fans, etc. either scream for a REV before it has been accomplished, or if it's awarded scream that the formerly defensive wrestler didn't have full control (that which is required for a TD), and both of them are usually wrong in their contentions.
- the other thing to consider is that HS refs don't get a lot of experience working with an assistant ref. The elite refs, who do a lot of State tournaments, or finals in elite tournaments, have experience with it, but even such elite refs have typically done 90-95% of their matches by themselves. The ref that is the assistant ref typically has even less experience in that role, as the head ref is basically doing what they are used to (making all the calls), whereas the assistant ref is primarily responsible for calling out the time at the end of the period, looking for OOB when they are on the edge and the head ref is focused on whether it's a TD, a REV, whether NF criteria has been met, or if there is a PD or an illegal hold. (It's REALLY nice to have that 2nd set of eyes focused on OOB when you're the head ref, so you don't have to look for that with all the other things that might be going on.)
- in terms of the mechanics, the refs did exactly what they were supposed to do. The head ref makes his/her calls. The assistant ref is not supposed to interrupt the head ref, express disagreement, etc., while action is taking place. When action stops (end of the period, OOB, etc.) the head ref should make eye contact to see if the assistant ref has a comment to make, and/or the assistant ref should move to the head ref and express their opinion about a call. In essence, it's allowing a 2nd set of eyes to evaluate the call, and then the refs discuss things to try to get it right. That's exactly what took place here. The head ref signaled a REV, and also signaled 2 NF, and then the buzzer sounded to end the TB2 (2nd rideout, which was also the end of the match). We have no way of knowing what each said, but my guess, which I'm 99% confident is what happened based on my experience, is that the 2nd ref indicated that they didn't feel a REV had been accomplished, as the top wrestler still had ahold of the leg after the bottom wrestler hit the switch after a shoulder roll. The head ref could have gone with his initial call, and sometimes they do. However, his/her bigger responsibility is to get the call right, and based on the input given by the assistant ref, he decided to wave off the REV
So the $64,000 dollar question is, was it a reversal? Frankly, from the video shown, I can't tell for sure. The top wrestler has a hold of one leg of the bottom wrestler after the shoulder roll and switch by the bottom wrestler. It appears that his hold became more of a single arm hooked around the leg during the flurry, but I can't tell for sure. The top wrestler did have control of the bottom wrestler's leg with both arms at the end, though that was the left leg, whereas his earlier hold had been on the right leg, which does lend some credence to the awarding of the reversal. And even if the top wrestler's hold became just a hook with one arm, it still might be enough to signal that he maintained control as the sequence happened pretty fast. The head ref was in perfect position. Interestingly, the assistant ref wasn't in the correct position (they are usually opposite the head ref), but due to the direction the flurry went he ended up also having an excellent view, though different than the head ref's. In short, it was close, and could have gone either way. I'd need a closeup and a different angle to provide a more concrete evaluation.
The commentators were terrible, in terms of not knowing the rules, and making claims based on what a fan might think, but out-of-touch with what the rules are. Was that Pyles on the PBP? (And I like Pyles.)
Basically, the Buchanan coaches were smart to get their guy off the mat. His hand had been raised. The match was over. The other coaches were smart to keep their guy on the mat, but the likelihood of a successful appeal was really, really slim. The State Rules Interpreter was mentioned as being in the discussion, as was the head ref for the tournament. Those are the two that should have been involved. What they would have discussed with the head ref and the assistant ref from the match is what happened from their perspective, what they called, and what actions did they take. The only way the match was going to go back to a prior time is if in their discussions, the head ref for the tournament or the State Rules Interpreter determined that the head ref in the match had done something incorrect. And as I indicated above, I see no evidence of that.
It kind of sucked that this took place in the State Finals, and also that it was the last match of the State Finals. And while the kid that lost, and his coach, may not agree with the head ref for the match's decision to wave off the REV, it wasn't an illegal call by the ref, it was a judgement call reached after the two refs conversed, so the call stands.
Also, @s1uggo72, I'm pretty sure that was the CA State Finals.
Last edited:
Wow.quite a lesson to be learned for all wrestlers. Never assume points awarded. In other words,continue wrestling hard for better control till the buzzer.(strive to free your leg)
thanks Tom- I just happened to see this one day while busy? at work. I thought the kid had at least a reversal, back points really didnt matter. From the look of things, I think the asst ref talked to head ref out of the reversal, from what you said, I do not think that is the assistant refs roll.
To clarify: it's the head ref's decision. However, the assistant ref is supposed to provide a 2nd set of eyes and express their thoughts. Sometimes it's in the form of confirmation (yes, he had control for the TD before they were out of bounds), and other times it's to indicate that they didn't think the call was correct because of XYZ. (You don't just say the call was wrong -- you say I didn't think this or that criteria was attained.)
Last edited:
Get unlimited access today.