OT - Jackson Water Situation

[archdog]

Alright, I just have a few questions about Jackson and their 20 year ongoing issue with their water system.

1. Water utility is paid for per gallon as you use it. The money should pay for the water processes and distribution system needed to transport the water. What is the 17n problem. This should pay for itself.
2. Even after all the water bills have been paid, the city also has a tax base that could have been used to supplement the water proceeds to fix the system.
3. What else am I missing? The leadership in Jackson seems to be 17n incompetent to say the least. Why do they continue to elect totally incompetent people?

 

[PirateDawg]

You are absolutely right. I heard the Lieutenant Gov. this morning say they were assessing the situation today. Local government has precedence so they can't do anything until asked by the mayor. Evidently, the mayor has done very little to address the situation. He refused to postulate any solutions until they received feedback on their assessment. They plan to move quickly but until they know the issues with the pumps they can't formulate a plan.

 

[Shmuley]

1. According to the current mayoral leadership, clean water is a human right; therefore, it is not proper to collect payment for providing it and any bills that go unpaid cannot be collected. Under no circumstances will water service be suspended for non-payment.

2. It is a violation of state law to use general municipal taxes to prop up an enterprise fund.

3. There is fairly widespread apathy among the general voting age populace. Competent candidates either do not want to participate (probably due to the insurmountable nature of the rebuild) or see the possibility of being elected as futile.

 

[horshack.sixpack]

Jackson hasn't collected water bills successfully and consistently for at least a decade, maybe more. That's a start to explaining this.

 

[horshack.sixpack]

You would think that people MIGHT begin to see that you can't get something for nothing, but I suspect there are zero lessons being learned here. My dirt poor grandmother prioritized water, electric, the propane tank refill and groceries. Everything else was a luxury, but she understood what she HAD to have and she understood that she couldn't let the water or lights get turned off.

 

[aTotal360]

If local politicians can't get water to their base, they need to be fired. No excuse. Zero. None.

 

[GloryDawg]

Jackson hasn't collected water bills successfully and consistently for at least a decade, maybe more. That's a start to explaining this.

Technically the water is shut off. If you can't use it because it is contaminated might as well not have it.

 

[Drebin]

Number one is a big part of the problem in today's politics. Nothing that costs money is a human right, other than having the freedom to purchase what you want. Anything that involves using my tax dollars to give something for free to someone else is not their human right. Paying for clean water is a luxury that comes with living in a civilized society. Otherwise, folks can go collect water and boil it for consumption themselves.

Number two, and rightfully so.

Number three is another problem. When a large portion of the voting base is made up of folks who don't know what's good for themselves, running for office is akin to setting a pile of money on fire. On top of that, if someone worthwhile got elected, it would take too long and cost too much to fix the problems that the new guy inherited.

 

[vhdawg]

This ball got rolling with the deal Harvey Johnson cut with Siemens that was supposed to replace all the water meters and revolutionize meter reading and billing, and instead did the exact opposite. We lived in a rental in Jackson for six months in 2016, and we went four months without receiving a water bill. When we called, we were told one would come eventually, but if you wanted to make an estimated payment, they'd take it. Clearly tons of people elected not to pay or to stop paying, and when the city wouldn't do anything about it, the water revenue plummeted. Level that up with an aging pipe infrastructure and some extended freezes, lack of staffing by the city, and here we are.

 

[Hugh's Burner Phone]

1. According to the current mayoral leadership, clean water is a human right; therefore, it is not proper to collect payment for providing it and any bills that go unpaid cannot be collected. Under no circumstances will water service be suspended for non-payment.

2. It is a violation of state law to use general municipal taxes to prop up an enterprise fund.

3. There is fairly widespread apathy among the general voting age populace. Competent candidates either do not want to participate (probably due to the insurmountable nature of the rebuild) or see the possibility of being elected as futile.

What a complete 17ing idiot. I mean complete. No parts are missing. Clean drinkable water is not a human right. It's a luxury and benefit of not living in a third world hellhole. Somebody has to pay for the equipment and infrastructure to supply the water. Dare I ask who he thinks should pay for that to provide this basic human right to others?

Does he consider food a basic human right so it would be ok to never pay for groceries or your Big Mac?

 

[GloryDawg]

If Jackson doesn't get the water situation fix the only employers who will be left in Jackson in 15 years will be state and local governments. Businesses will move or just shut down. Restaurants are in trouble. Fast foods might make it. Jackson is done.

 

[Bulldog Bruce]

An obviously Addle-brained person got elected President so why wouldn't you think the same would happen for mayors and city councils? There has to be a martial law option where the Governor can appoint people to fix this situation. Those guys in the Corp of Engineers should be able to help.

 

[PirateDawg]

Jackson hasn't collected water bills successfully and consistently for at least a decade, maybe more. That's a start to explaining this.

That's amazing. I'm not surprised that the lamestream media hasn't picked up on it yet. This should be broadcasted to show the negative results when people don't pay their fair share!

 

[maroonmania]

Its a national embarrassment for the entire State. Just reinforces a lot of folks' pre-conceived notions across the country about MS being a backward State. Not good for sure.

 

[The Peeper]

Now that Chucky La Bamba and his cronies have heard that State and Federal $$ are on the way, the only plan they are working on is how to pocket as much of that as they can. You can bet that they will soon be cutting deals with contractors, architects, engineers, lawyers, equipment companies, etc. Since this is a crisis situation they will bypass the normal RFP's and fast track the whole deal which will make it easier for them to pad the invoices. The only details not set are how many Fed $$ there will be, and what % the contractors and Chucky get. Then they will have to forward Brother Benny his cut for getting the Fed $$ to them

 

[thatsbaseball]

Well that's maybe half the problem. I'd be very surprised if they had collected the money that it would have been spent on the maintenance and upkeep of the water system as it should have been.

 

[Faustdog]

This ball got rolling with the deal Harvey Johnson cut with Siemens that was supposed to replace all the water meters and revolutionize meter reading and billing, and instead did the exact opposite. We lived in a rental in Jackson for six months in 2016, and we went four months without receiving a water bill. When we called, we were told one would come eventually, but if you wanted to make an estimated payment, they'd take it. Clearly tons of people elected not to pay or to stop paying, and when the city wouldn't do anything about it, the water revenue plummeted. Level that up with an aging pipe infrastructure and some extended freezes, lack of staffing by the city, and here we are.

Yep. You have people who have never paid a water bill. Also, in most cases the city doesn't bother to lock the meters when an account is turned off. So when you move into a residence it's as simple as walking out to your meter and turning the water on yourself.

If you have ever been to the Jackson water department, you know that it is complete incompetence. They literally do not care, and I don't mean that with sarcasm or hyperbole. They do not care whether you set up an account, pay your bill, or do anything at all.

The billing system is screwed. Bills are not accurate or consistent.

The slightest disturbance to Jackson's old, brittle water pipes causes a break.

The treatment plants are outdated, in disrepair, and don't have qualified people running them.

The bottom line is that the current leadership has no clue how to fix it. And if they did they wouldn't have the funds to do so. It's going to take federal and/or state help to prevent an actual humanitarian crisis.

 

[GloryDawg]

Its a national embarrassment for the entire State. Just reinforces a lot of folks' pre-conceived notions across the country about MS being a backward State. Not good for sure.

I was setting up a conference call for work. I needed to be at the office to do it. Wasn't sure about this week. My office is in Jackson. I did not know if it was going to be open or not so I set it up for next week. I told them office was shut down due to flooding. I did not bring up the water situation for the very same reason.

 

[Go Budaw]

Number one is a big part of the problem in today's politics. Nothing that costs money is a human right, other than having the freedom to purchase what you want. Anything that involves using my tax dollars to give something for free to someone else is not their human right. Paying for clean water is a luxury that comes with living in a civilized society. Otherwise, folks can go collect water and boil it for consumption themselves

I’m not sure that its a political issue as much as it is a general incompetence / corruption issue. I certainly don’t remember any candidates running on a “free water” platform when trying to get elected to mayor or city council in Jackson. The fact that you have people who WANT to pay for their water but still can’t do it proves to me that its just basic incompetence and complete lack of oversight.

 

[horshack.sixpack]

It's very well known to be an issue. A large settlement from Siemen's (the company who was supposed to automate meter reading) has been received and spent with no improvement to the water system. I suspect we will never see the proper accounting for that settlement money.

 

[vhdawg]

It's very well known to be an issue. A large settlement from Siemen's (the company who was supposed to automate meter reading) has been received and spent with no improvement to the water system. I suspect we will never see the proper accounting for that settlement money.

I don't think the money they got in that settlement was anywhere close to the amount of money that would have made them whole anyway. They got screwed over, their meters screwed up, and didn't get enough back to fix it if they'd wanted to.

 

[horshack.sixpack]

Right. Try to track down accounting on the Siemens settlement money that was supposed to go to the water system. What I see happening in other areas in Jackson is that money that was once set aside for specific needs is now thrown into the general fund for all to fight over. It won't be long and it will all be grift instead of mostly grift.

 

[047Dog]

I’m not sure that its a political issue as much as it is a general incompetence / corruption issue. I certainly don’t remember any candidates running on a “free water” platform when trying to get elected to mayor or city council in Jackson. The fact that you have people who WANT to pay for their water but still can’t do it proves to me that its just basic incompetence and complete lack of oversight.

My mother in law has not been billed for water in 2+ years. But she wants to be a good citizen so she mails in a fair amount each month for her share. Who knows whose pocket that money goes into.

 

[horshack.sixpack]

I don't know the details, but I do believe there has to be two sides to the story. I know people who have worked with the City on projects before that have gone completely sideways because they can't get anyone in the City to some basic information gathering that is needed to make the project successful. At some point, you just go upside down on the contract and halt work. I've also seen international companies suffer the same fate and send the City formal notification that they were removing all project resources on their side because everybody at the City was "too busy" to provide some very easy, fundamental information/work that would help the project succeed. That unwillingness to do ANY work at all forced the project to failure as it was something that only a City employee could do/know.

Siemens might have been all Siemen's fault, but I'm very skeptical of that.

I also can't imagine going backwards to in person meter reading. Can you imagine what you would have to pay someone to drive around Jackson and read meters? The chance of getting randomly shot coupled with the odds that someone takes issue with you being a part of them having to pay their water bill is too much.

 

[Pink Floyd.sixpack]

I’ve watched this in the national media with some curiosity to see how this was reported. The big three and their offshoots are all just taking Lumumba at his word that this a flooding situation. Some up and coming reporter (if there are any these days) would have a hell of expose digging into the mess that is Jackson city government

 

[dudehead]

I don't know the details, but I do believe there has to be two sides to the story. I know people who have worked with the City on projects before that have gone completely sideways because they can't get anyone in the City to some basic information gathering that is needed to make the project successful. At some point, you just go upside down on the contract and halt work. I've also seen international companies suffer the same fate and send the City formal notification that they were removing all project resources on their side because everybody at the City was "too busy" to provide some very easy, fundamental information/work that would help the project succeed. That unwillingness to do ANY work at all forced the project to failure as it was something that only a City employee could do/know.

Siemens might have been all Siemen's fault, but I'm very skeptical of that.

I also can't imagine going backwards to in person meter reading. Can you imagine what you would have to pay someone to drive around Jackson and read meters? The chance of getting randomly shot coupled with the odds that someone takes issue with you being a part of them having to pay their water bill is too much.

That sounds like Mogadishu. I cannot get my brain around the unravelling of civil society in the US but it's damn sure happening.

 

[paindonthurt]

If a single state or federal dollar is spent on jackson without 100% 3rd party oversite with open to public transaction records, its a 17ing travesty.

 

[Lawdawg.sixpack]

That 1% sales tax for Jackson sure has fixed the city's infrastructure needs...

 

[turkish]

Jackson hasn't collected water bills successfully and consistently for at least a decade, maybe more. That's a start to explaining this.

And I have friends texting me because they think this is another sign of water shortages like they’re seeing out West due to the crap job the MSM is doing reporting this.

 

[thatsbaseball]

LOL we live in Madison and have gotten calls from friends in three states asking if we have water. When we explain to them it's a Jackson only problem and how it came about they all say..."you got to be kidding".

 

[johnson86-1]

I’m not sure that its a political issue as much as it is a general incompetence / corruption issue. I certainly don’t remember any candidates running on a “free water” platform when trying to get elected to mayor or city council in Jackson. The fact that you have people who WANT to pay for their water but still can’t do it proves to me that its just basic incompetence and complete lack of oversight.

That's certainly part of it but the reason they don't force payments and shut off for non-payment is mostly politicial; they think they'll get voted out for being mean or something if they require people to pay water bills in order to continue receiving service. THey're probably not wrong. I'm sure a mayor that shut off water for non-payment would be vulnerable in the democratic primary.

 

[SteelCurtain74]

If local politicians can't get water to their base, they need to be fired. No excuse. Zero. None.

I agree however unfortunately Mississippi does not have laws on the books for recall of local elected officials. A bill was put up last year in the state legislature but was shot down.

 

[harrybollocks]

Completely incompetent leadership

And incompetence from citizens who vote these useless leaders into office. Jackson's murder rate is worse than the murder rate in El Salvador and other third world, sorry developing, countries. Pitiful, corrupt leadership. The murder rate wasn't as bad just a few years ago.

I find the "something, something is a human right" stuff silly. Governments should provide safe, clean drinking water and maintain infrastructure to do so. Governments are supposed to do certain things. Either that's paid by taxes or monthly bills, or both. But, I want something for free doesn't sound good so now it's expressed as a human right.

BTW, "Craft beer is a human right, but IPA's are a sign of the apocalypse." I can get behind that one.

 

[johnson86-1]

Alright, I just have a few questions about Jackson and their 20 year ongoing issue with their water system.

1. Water utility is paid for per gallon as you use it. The money should pay for the water processes and distribution system needed to transport the water. What is the 17n problem. This should pay for itself.
2. Even after all the water bills have been paid, the city also has a tax base that could have been used to supplement the water proceeds to fix the system.
3. What else am I missing? The leadership in Jackson seems to be 17n incompetent to say the least. Why do they continue to elect totally incompetent people?

The problem is that water and sewer infrastructure are things that require regular expenditures, but it takes a while for the consequences of not making those expenditures to show up. So in the short and medium term, you can free up money for graft by not making those expenditures, and voters mostly won't pay attention until it's they are good and well 17ed. The current mayor certainly is incompetent and corrupt, but he's not really any more to blame than any of the leadership the last couple of decades. They've all ignored the issue knowing/hoping it would be the next guys problem.

It's basically the same thing we have with PERS. Everybody knows PERS is severely underfunded and eventually there is going to be some combination of haircuts for pensioners and presumably major tax hikes. But that's a problem for some future politicians and you can't really blame the current politicians because they are almost certainly right that all addressing it would do is get them chunked out of office. If Tate suggested pensioners take a 15% haircut and taxes be raised to cover the rest of the 25% of underfunding, he might get assassinated before he got voted out.

 

[GoToHellOleMiss.sixpack]

Where is MDEQ in all of this?

How were they allowed to operate at a deficit?

How were they allowed to not make needed repairs?

I deal with ADEM in Alabama on the daily and they are pretty proactive when it comes to water systems.

If they borrowed money to make improvements/repairs, how are the creditor's not holding them accountable?

 

[Go Budaw]

That's certainly part of it but the reason they don't force payments and shut off for non-payment is mostly politicial; they think they'll get voted out for being mean or something if they require people to pay water bills in order to continue receiving service. THey're probably not wrong. I'm sure a mayor that shut off water for non-payment would be vulnerable in the democratic primary.

So the not forcing payments policy has been in effect from every mayor and city council agenda from the past 20-30 years? I mean this is not a new problem, right?

From my perspective, it seems the “water is a human right” approach is a convenient one to take in order to further muddy the water as to how much revenue the city is or is not bringing in…..which makes it much easier to redirect the actual water bill revenue towards nefarious purposes. The fact that some portion of the electorate is in favor of it is merely a side benefit, but not the main impetus behind not collecting. If a sufficiently large portion of the population isn’t paying, the bean counters at the water department just become numb to it, and stop asking questions.

 

[vhdawg]

I also can't imagine going backwards to in person meter reading. Can you imagine what you would have to pay someone to drive around Jackson and read meters? The chance of getting randomly shot coupled with the odds that someone takes issue with you being a part of them having to pay their water bill is too much.

If I were reading meters in Jackson I think the only hours I'd be willing to work would be from about 6 AM to 9 AM. Relatively certain that the criminal element is asleep at that time.

 

[vhdawg]

How were they allowed to operate at a deficit?

How were they allowed to not make needed repairs?

I deal with ADEM in Alabama on the daily and they are pretty proactive when it comes to water systems.

If they borrowed money to make improvements/repairs, how are the creditor's not holding them accountable?

Shoot, they're under a consent decree from the EPA that they've routinely ignored. You think MDEQ is going to scare them?

 

[vhdawg]

they think they'll get voted out for being mean or something if they require people to pay water bills in order to continue receiving service.

In the last Jackson mayoral election, there were 19,841 votes cast in the Democratic primary, and 18,980 votes cast in the general election. So being generous, that's maybe 20% of the voting age population actually participating?

 

[Go Budaw]

In the last Jackson mayoral election, there were 19,841 votes cast in the Democratic primary, and 18,980 votes cast in the general election. So being generous, that's maybe 20% of the voting age population actually participating?

Exactly. And I bet the number of people in the center of a Venn diagram of groups who both voted in those elections and the people who can’t afford to pay their water bill (which is probably less than a Netflix subscription for 80% of residents) is damn near zero.