OT: Mississippi/Southern Yellow Pine Timber Owners

PooPopsBaldHead

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Dec 15, 2017
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I am here to first admit I was wrong.. Last summer in one of my lumber threads I mentioned it might take 20 years to get a real supply/demand correction on SYP timber. Well, I am now changing that to less than 10 years.

Over my career (since 2006) in and watching the lumber markets, the single most important product is SPF (spruce-pine-fir) out of the northwest and Canada. In fact historically nearly 20% of all lumber used in US residential construction, is out of British Columbia. Starting in the 90's, BC was hit hard by beetle infestations that continued to intensify up until around 2010. It wiped out 45 million some odd acres (1.5 times the size of Mississippi) of timber in that timespan. The beetle kill timber is still able to be harvested and sawed into lumber for about 7-10 years after its killed. It's noticeable by the blue stains in the lumber, even sold as "blue stain spruce" in some appearance applications. You have probably seen the blue stains in studs at Home Depot or Lowe's.

Well the gig is up. We have gone through all of the beetle kill timber in BC and it will take decades for the wood basket to replenish. To counter this, we have seen Canadian companies like West Fraser, Interfor, Canfor, and Tolko investing in our outright buying southern sawmills. Well, I think Dorn has mentioned it before, but the Canadian's are carpetbagging in with big money. I did not realize how much sawmill capacity was actually coming on board.

In Jasper, Alabama, Tolko bought a 50% stake in Jasper lumber and are tripling its capacity.

In Corinth, Mission Forest Products is building a $160 million new lumber mill that will probably come online later this year or next. Here is an aerial of construction, its getting close, but it sounds like there are some pretty nasty delays on equipment throughout the industry.

View attachment 23849

Beiwer Lumber is almost finished with a new $130 million mill in Winona. They may be running before summer.

Idaho Forest Group is putting a big new mill in Lumberton that will be finished in the next year or sooner as well.

https://lumberton.ifg.com/2021/12/ifg-november-2021-update/

Enviva is getting ready to fire up the worlds largest biomass pellet mill in Lucedale.

Similar investments are already underway in Louisiana and Arkansas as well.]


This is really good news for timber owners, especially if you have SYP. The one negative I can see is there hasn't been any new OSB mills announced in the region and those suckers take years to build from scratch.

Institutional investors are also starting to pile money back into timberlands in the region as an inflation hedge and the upside of timber realizations down the road are looking more attractive. This was a pretty hot talking point on the recent earnings calls for Weyerhaeuser and Rayonier which have large southern timber holdings.

Obviously talk to a forester if you have one, but the future prices of sawlogs especially are starting to look better. Probably not this year or next, but unless we go into a massive recession the worm is turning. Last year saw a good bump, but a lot of that had to do with weather. But overall the prospects are looking better, sooner, than I expected.

ETA. The biggest headwind is going to be logging. There are already shortages in that industry and buy increasing demand for timber in the area, its going to get a lot worse. It’s a hard, dangerous, capital intensive, and traditionally not very lucrative industry, but I am guessing that last part may change quite a bit going forward.
 

dorndawg

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Good stuff JLS. When the Canadians started buying up Southern mills they didn't come to learn they came to teach.

Pulpwood is up a LOT in some timber baskets, varies by region. I wouldn't be shocked to eventually see some of these institutional investors try to team up with homebuilders to put a squeeze on sawmills from both sides.

Logging is a MESS. I could see them trying to get some kind of remote-control type technology there, but still - when it's 100 degrees in August in Jasper damn County Mississippi and you blow a hydraulic hose on the skidder, somebodies gotta go fix it.
 

dorndawg

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They're not done yet either. Look for another greenfield mill announcement in the near future ;-).

 

Mr. Cook

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Nov 4, 2021
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This is solid info here --

If my memory serves me correctly, I think there were pellet mills in Alabama (e.g. Aliceville). This was back when all of the pelletized products were being bought in Europe as co-fire and being shipped our of Savannah

Based on your assessment, which I don't disagree with, how do you feel transport of the materials will factor into all this? Isn't SYP about 50% water? It seems uneconomical to be hauling water up and down the road, but it may not matter, if I read you right
 

Maroon Eagle

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May 24, 2006
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This Jasper damn County guy is becoming more and more intrigued with this thread…
 

dorndawg

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This is solid info here --

If my memory serves me correctly, I think there were pellet mills in Alabama (e.g. Aliceville). This was back when all of the pelletized products were being bought in Europe as co-fire and being shipped our of Savannah

Based on your assessment, which I don't disagree with, how do you feel transport of the materials will factor into all this? Isn't SYP about 50% water? It seems uneconomical to be hauling water up and down the road, but it may not matter, if I read you right


Framing SYP is 19% moisture or less. If you're talking about SYP logs, that's generally in the low 30% moisture.
 

coach66

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Mar 5, 2009
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Makes sense, I just sold all my timber land, tough

Way to make a dollar but I would love to see it turnaround.
 

PooPopsBaldHead

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Actually the logs probably are pretty close to 50% most of the time. Low 30's is where the green lumber would likely be before entering the kilns. There's a decent amount of moisture lost during primary breakdown.

I will check the nerd papers on the FPL site to confirm.
 

thatsbaseball

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May 29, 2007
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I spent a lot of time in the woods with loggers for years. I haven't in several years but when you say a "mess" are you referring to labor being hard to get ?
 

dorndawg

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Actually the logs probably are pretty close to 50% most of the time. Low 30's is where the green lumber would likely be before entering the kilns. There's a decent amount of moisture lost during primary breakdown.

I will check the nerd papers on the FPL site to confirm.


Fair, I was thinking abot green lumber
 

dorndawg

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I spent a lot of time in the woods with loggers for years. I haven't in several years but when you say a "mess" are you referring to labor being hard to get ?

Yes, labor for logging crews themselves and also log truck drivers. Just like other trades, less young folks getting into it. Another big part is keeping their equipment running, both from the aspect of parts availability and mechanics, particularly mechanics in road trucks.
 

thatsbaseball

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I campaigned for years for some of the loggers I worked with to recruit some Hispanic labor and take the time to train them but they never did. Hell back in the 80's and 90's many the 4 row cotton pickers in the San Joaquin Valley were operated by Hispanic females ! I always thought loggers were missing out on a great labor pool.
 

PooPopsBaldHead

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The best short to medium term fix for our construction economy from the tree to finished house is a good visa program. Long term we made concrete, framing, roofing, carpentry, sawmilling, and logging programs at the JC level the same way HVAC, plumbing, and and electrical are taught.
 

ronpolk

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May 6, 2009
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They're not done yet either. Look for another greenfield mill announcement in the near future ;-).

I know of a pretty big expansion of one in MS involving Tolko. I just hope everyone is not getting out ahead of themselves. I can’t help but think rising rates are going to cool the housing market.
 

dorndawg

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I know of a pretty big expansion of one in MS involving Tolko. I just hope everyone is not getting out ahead of themselves. I can’t help but think rising rates are going to cool the housing market.

If mortgage rates go up 0.75 (from say 3.25 to 4), thats what, around $130 a month on a $300k note? Of course that's not nothing and if people "rush" to make a purchase before increases, that will cause further shock to an already shocked ecosystem.

I just don't see what is going to meaningfully cool the housing market short-term. As of right now, per realtor.com, this is the number of single family homes actively (not under contract) for sale in these cities:
Dallas 527
Austin 506
Nashville 350
Atlanta 879
Madison MS 68
 

PooPopsBaldHead

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Rates can have moderate effects on home buying like 2018, but it really only effects marginal buyers such as low income or second homes etc.

In an inflationary environment (which we haven't seen since the 70's) rates are secondary to supply and demand. From 1971-1981 30 year mortgage rates more than doubled from 7-14.5%. Yet in the same time period home prices nearly tripled.

A 1% rise in interest rates accounts for a little less than $200 per month increase on a $350k mortgage. The median HH income in the US is $72.5k. Annual pay raises in 2022 are tracking for 4.5% or $275/month.

As long as rates and wages keep rising together so will home prices. As long as employment is strong and inventory is low, home prices will appreciate. It's all about inventory right now. We have 255,000 available homes for sale right now across the country. That's lower than this time last year and newly listed prices are rising faster than January of last year... Nobody is waiting for rates to go higher to buy.

For perspective, the first week of February in 2019 we had 816,000 available homes for sale in the country. New construction is tapped out. Mortgage delinquency is officially at it's lowest level in history. Nobody that owns a home locked into a low interest rate is going to sell their home to pay a higher interest rate unless they get a premium... It's a viscous cycle.

Single family homes are the best inflation hedge available. Land, materials, and labor are what makes a home... When inflation is hot those three components all get more expensive.

Hopefully it cools as buyer demand chills out, but we have a massive housing shortage in this country. Increasing domestic lumber capacity will help alleviate some cost pressures and make building more affordable housing possible.

But we are not there yet.
 

1msucub

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Oct 3, 2004
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I love listening to y’all discuss things I don’t understand.
Why do you say Canadians came to teach, and not learn?
Will the advent of these bigger mills lead to over-cutting of a lot of our trees? How do they manage that?

I appreciate the answers and discussion.
 

ababyatemydingo

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2008
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I am here to first admit I was wrong.. Last summer in one of my lumber threads I mentioned it might take 20 years to get a real supply/demand correction on SYP timber. Well, I am now changing that to less than 10 years.

Over my career (since 2006) in and watching the lumber markets, the single most important product is SPF (spruce-pine-fir) out of the northwest and Canada. In fact historically nearly 20% of all lumber used in US residential construction, is out of British Columbia. Starting in the 90's, BC was hit hard by beetle infestations that continued to intensify up until around 2010. It wiped out 45 million some odd acres (1.5 times the size of Mississippi) of timber in that timespan. The beetle kill timber is still able to be harvested and sawed into lumber for about 7-10 years after its killed. It's noticeable by the blue stains in the lumber, even sold as "blue stain spruce" in some appearance applications. You have probably seen the blue stains in studs at Home Depot or Lowe's.

Well the gig is up. We have gone through all of the beetle kill timber in BC and it will take decades for the wood basket to replenish. To counter this, we have seen Canadian companies like West Fraser, Interfor, Canfor, and Tolko investing in our outright buying southern sawmills. Well, I think Dorn has mentioned it before, but the Canadian's are carpetbagging in with big money. I did not realize how much sawmill capacity was actually coming on board.

In Jasper, Alabama, Tolko bought a 50% stake in Jasper lumber and are tripling its capacity.

In Corinth, Mission Forest Products is building a $160 million new lumber mill that will probably come online later this year or next. Here is an aerial of construction, its getting close, but it sounds like there are some pretty nasty delays on equipment throughout the industry.

View attachment 23849

Beiwer Lumber is almost finished with a new $130 million mill in Winona. They may be running before summer.

Idaho Forest Group is putting a big new mill in Lumberton that will be finished in the next year or sooner as well.

https://lumberton.ifg.com/2021/12/ifg-november-2021-update/

Enviva is getting ready to fire up the worlds largest biomass pellet mill in Lucedale.

Similar investments are already underway in Louisiana and Arkansas as well.]


This is really good news for timber owners, especially if you have SYP. The one negative I can see is there hasn't been any new OSB mills announced in the region and those suckers take years to build from scratch.

Institutional investors are also starting to pile money back into timberlands in the region as an inflation hedge and the upside of timber realizations down the road are looking more attractive. This was a pretty hot talking point on the recent earnings calls for Weyerhaeuser and Rayonier which have large southern timber holdings.

Obviously talk to a forester if you have one, but the future prices of sawlogs especially are starting to look better. Probably not this year or next, but unless we go into a massive recession the worm is turning. Last year saw a good bump, but a lot of that had to do with weather. But overall the prospects are looking better, sooner, than I expected.

ETA. The biggest headwind is going to be logging. There are already shortages in that industry and buy increasing demand for timber in the area, its going to get a lot worse. It’s a hard, dangerous, capital intensive, and traditionally not very lucrative industry, but I am guessing that last part may change quite a bit going forward.


CM Biomass, out of Denmark, is about to bring two brand new pellet plants online (Brookhaven and Jackson, AL). This is in addition to their 7 other plants in the Southeast US. We handle all on-site IT for three of their pellet plants. They are going to be increasing their capacity at another of their plants that we service from 130,000 cubic yards a week to 300,000 cubic yards a week. They're spending a bunch of money on it. Sparing no expense. Every bit of it goes to France to be burned as fuel
 

Mobile Bay

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Jul 26, 2020
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Then not so fast. France just yesterday announced the building of 14 nuclear power plants across the country. So that market is going to cool. And unlike the USA, France can build them quickly.
 

Smoked Toag

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So does this mean Mis Sipi is about to see an economic boom?

I know that a British company is trying to build a plant in Natchez that will turn wood waste into jet fuel. That could be cool, right?

That's one damn thing we got, is trees.

The we got ye ole Interstate 14 hopefully rolling through them trees as well.
 
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patdog

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May 28, 2007
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Wow! Good to see that at least one country is actually getting serious about clean power.
 

xxxWalkTheDawg

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Enough of that technical mumbo jumbo…. Can I sell 60 acres of pulpwood this summer and buy a F250 with gold plated truck nutz or not?**
 

PooPopsBaldHead

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Dec 15, 2017
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Every major player in the industry at a NAWLA regional meeting? If that's the case, something big is happening. Those things are usually a snooze fest with less than 100 attendees and only last a few hours.
 
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NTDawg

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Mar 2, 2012
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Power from pellets. Does this mean I can power my house with my Traeger and can pellet power plants also smoke brisket? Win win
 

turkish

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Aug 22, 2012
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I love listening to y’all discuss things I don’t understand.
Why do you say Canadians came to teach, and not learn?
Will the advent of these bigger mills lead to over-cutting of a lot of our trees? How do they manage that?

I appreciate the answers and discussion.
Over cutting?
 

Maroon Eagle

Well-known member
May 24, 2006
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I agree with you 100 percent but I know more than a few folks who would not like that at all.
 

DesotoCountyDawg

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Nov 16, 2005
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Former Mississippi Farm Bureau president David Waide always said that if we could ever get the timber infrastructure in place Mississippi could the the “Saudi Arabia of the South” with wood biomass.
 
Jul 19, 2014
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All the sawmills in the world are great and all but something has to be done to bolster loggers, log truck drivers, and pulpwood markets. Without those three key components, there won’t be sawlogs to cut. Log truck insurance is absolutely outrageous currently and when was the last time a new logging contractor started? The startup and operational costs are almost undoable for young loggers. Profit margins are thin too. New federal training requirements for commercial drivers are ridiculous. Sorry for the gloom and doom but this industry is on the verge of a serious problem.
 
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