OT: More on picking a university

SLUdog

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May 28, 2007
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Everyone can't be a STEM major....

for the many reasons. The statistics don't surprise me at all.
 

Snave

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Aug 22, 2012
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Far more public than private universities, but MIT, Cal Tech, Stanford, Duke are some heavy hitters as private STEM renowned universities.

I can't see how people can afford private tuition without getting a ton of scholarship money. I picked MSU because it has a good EE department and I was broke.
 

SLUdog

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I was thinking about abilities and interests.

I have a PhD in history. I can read multiple languages. I have a good memory and am interested in economics, politics, religion, and human existence. Not only did I have no desire to be an engineer, biologist, chemist, or computer scientist, it's unlikely that my cognitive abilities (or at least what I thought at the time) would have allowed me to do these things.
 

harrybollocks

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You'll do well with a STEM degree from a good state school, but Liberal Arts degrees from elite schools carry more weight than those from state schools. Thus, the truly tolerant and open-minded people of the world, innumerate liberal arts majors who are are morally superior to others and let everyone know on twitter, value degrees from elite institutions more than those able to pass differential equations.
 

RocketDawg

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I've never figured out what a liberal arts major does for a job -- elite university or not.
 

dog12

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I've never figured out what a liberal arts major does for a job -- elite university or not.

Same.

In my opinion, a liberal arts degree is a waste of time, effort and money.

Just my opinion . . . no offense intended to anyone that has a liberal arts degree.
 

SLUdog

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May 28, 2007
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Arithmetic and geometry are liberals arts but...

most people don't think that way any more.

The top major at many universities is business marketing. I'd prefer someone who studied history,
English literature, philosophy, and/or a foreign language to the average person with a marketing degree.
 

harrybollocks

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Lots of people do well with liberal arts degrees in education, government and business. Many go on to law school. I'm sure many are happy in life. Companies in Silicon Valley and elsewhere get to import cheap labor from abroad with STEM degrees to keep salaries in those fields lower than they should be.
 

johnson86-1

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Same.

In my opinion, a liberal arts degree is a waste of time, effort and money.

Just my opinion . . . no offense intended to anyone that has a liberal arts degree.

Liberal arts is no more of a waste than other degrees that don't set you up for a particular career. So if you're not doing Engineering, accounting, finance, food sciences, etc., I think it's six of one, half dozen of the other. You've got to get somebody to give you a chance doing something based on either a connection or a belief that your resume shows you've got the intelligence to do a lot of things well.
 

johnson86-1

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Aug 22, 2012
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most people don't think that way any more.

The top major at many universities is business marketing. I'd prefer someone who studied history,
English literature, philosophy, and/or a foreign language to the average person with a marketing degree.

With the way degrees have been watered down, I'd probably be indifferent. But if I knew something about the particular program and had a reason to think it's rigorous, I'd prefer some of the degrees you mentioned over marketing.

But honestly, if a person doesn't have a degree in something like engineering where I know it's hard to coast through, I'd just as soon know their ACT/SAT/GRE/LSAT/MCAT etc as their college major and GPA.
 

dorndawg

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Sep 10, 2012
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Same.

In my opinion, a liberal arts degree is a waste of time, effort and money.

Just my opinion . . . no offense intended to anyone that has a liberal arts degree.

STEM = how, Liberal Arts = why.
 

mstateglfr

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Feb 24, 2008
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Same.

In my opinion, a liberal arts degree is a waste of time, effort and money.

Just my opinion . . . no offense intended to anyone that has a liberal arts degree.

Calling someone's degree a waste of time, effort, and money...and then saying no offense is intended. Classic SPS.

I will absolutely say that my marketing degree from MSU was a total waste of time from an educational perspective. The degree was actually a business and communications degree and neither really apply to what I have done or currently do.

I managed some large accounts for years, managed a team for years, and now manage relationships with vendors and buy. I have been on the selling side, buying side, and managing side of business and what has helped me most is experience and the basic classes that could have been taught at a community college.
Seriously, my most used skills from college are basics from the first 2 years. Basic econ, basic accounting, basic writing, basic psych, basic sociology, etc etc. Take those classes and combine them with 2 years of working in an office and I would have had just as much knowledge and understanding as when I graduated, but with less debt and more money in the bank.

A college degree is still important for many who major in business or something general like that because it shows you can complete a long term task and there is value in knowing that. A company can then take you and teach you how to account manage HVAC, or Copiers and Printers, or Transportation, or Paint, etc etc etc.
If someone is just going for a marketing degree, they are best served going to CC for a couple years and then transferring to a state school. Keep the costs as low as possible because their degree is as generic as it gets.
Someone who graduates with a degree in Religious History could be up to speed in an office setting just as quickly as a marketing major since they would have also taken those basic classes early on.
 

Maroon Eagle

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May 24, 2006
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I think like folks in STEM but that’s not my main gig.

Maybe I would have been in STEM if MSMS had existed when I was in high school but classes at the private school I attended were boring and I wasn’t challenged at all.

Looking at it in retrospect, being Aspergers I didn’t feel like I belonged there which is par for the course for a lot of folks who are similarly diagnosed.
 

Maroon Eagle

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I like the emphasis on STEM but it’s not a panacea for everyone.

Folks think differently and backgrounds vary.

A lot of folks are STEM oriented and are challenged and intrigued enough by the classes they take in high school that they want to continue.

A lot of folks aren’t interested in STEM programs at all and more so into the humanities and liberal arts.

And you have a bunch of square pegs who don’t fit into all of the above.

TLDR: Find the right fit. Something challenging and interesting where there can be room for advancement/make a decent living. In some of those programs, that may mean graduate school.
 

PirateDawg

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Me too and it was a great decision. I paid my own way through school so I was on a tight budget. Worked a year and a half before I could start.
 

dog12

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Liberal arts is no more of a waste than other degrees that don't set you up for a particular career. So if you're not doing Engineering, accounting, finance, food sciences, etc., I think it's six of one, half dozen of the other.

Agree.

Before attending college and deciding on a major, one should have an overall, high-level plan for his/her career. Certainly, this plan can (and almost always does) change as time moves forward, but this original plan should help the person to focus his/her efforts efficiently and effectively.

If the person has no ideas about what he/she will do for a career, then I would suggest getting a job and going to work in the real world . . . instead of going to college . . . at least for some amount of time . . . to allow the person to mature and contemplate/formulate a plan for his/her career.
 

dickiedawg

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Feb 22, 2008
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Companies in Silicon Valley and elsewhere get to import cheap labor from abroad with STEM degrees to keep salaries in those fields lower than they should be.
Do you have any data to support this assertion? I ask because for a company to sponsor a worker from another country, they are required to pay the prevailing wage.
 

harrybollocks

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Older article that looks at the use of imported labor to limit salary growth. https://files.epi.org/2013/bp359-guestworkers-high-skill-labor-market-analysis.pdf

Not Silicon Valley, but here's an article on Disney replacing part of its workforce with foreign labor. https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/04/...off-at-disney-train-foreign-replacements.html

Companies have an incentive to keep wages and salaries low: https://www.npr.org/sections/alltec...suit,avoid recruiting one another's employees.


I'm not a knee-jerk "foreigners are taking our jobs" guy and I'm aware the issue sometimes leads to immigrant bashing. Most immigrants, first and second generation, are pretty patriotic. The law of supply and demand applies to labor as well, perhaps not always. The prevailing wage may be, yes I'm hedging a bit, kept artificially low through the use of visas. That's happened in industries that use non-STEM labor too.
 

johnson86-1

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Aug 22, 2012
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Older article that looks at the use of imported labor to limit salary growth. https://files.epi.org/2013/bp359-guestworkers-high-skill-labor-market-analysis.pdf

Not Silicon Valley, but here's an article on Disney replacing part of its workforce with foreign labor. https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/04/...off-at-disney-train-foreign-replacements.html

Companies have an incentive to keep wages and salaries low: https://www.npr.org/sections/alltec...suit,avoid recruiting one another's employees.


I'm not a knee-jerk "foreigners are taking our jobs" guy and I'm aware the issue sometimes leads to immigrant bashing. Most immigrants, first and second generation, are pretty patriotic. The law of supply and demand applies to labor as well, perhaps not always. The prevailing wage may be, yes I'm hedging a bit, kept artificially low through the use of visas. That's happened in industries that use non-STEM labor too.

I don't have a problem with immigrants breing brought over for certain jobs, but it's just not done even handedly. Some people get the benefits of cheaper labor and are protected in their own job. Others don't even reallyu get the benefit of cheaper labor (depending on what they consume) but also have their wages depressed by competition. I think if it were more even handed, that would reduce some of the opposition to it.

I also sort of question about whether bringing immigrants over for jobs changes the type of immigrant we get. Not sure I trust the data, but for domestic migration, when people leave blue states because of the downsides of blue policies (generally some combination of high COL, high taxes, burdensome regulations, crime, bad schools, etc.) they supposedly don't vote to put those policies they are fleeing into effect in their new state, but when they move because their company moves, they do. I wonder whether people coming over to work a particular job are less likely to appreciate living in a liberal democracy/republic and more likely to vote against liberal principles if they eventually become citizens.
 

NWADawg

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May 4, 2016
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Same.

In my opinion, a liberal arts degree is a waste of time, effort and money.

Just my opinion . . . no offense intended to anyone that has a liberal arts degree.

My daughter in law got a degree in Social Work. She worked at a construction/development/real estate company to pay her way through college. When she graduated and started interviewing for social work jobs, the best job available would have been a $5k+ pay cut from her college job. She couldn't afford to change jobs. Her pay has at least doubled since so the gap back to social work is even more ridiculous. Don't get me wrong, she makes a decent salary but not getting rich by any means and is still more than double a social worker pay.

I don't understand how those jobs find applicants worth anything or why a person would go chose a major knowing people with mindless hourly jobs can out earn the jobs that will be available. Money isn't everything but virtually no one would work for free.
 

archdog

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Would you consider architect as a STEM program or a humanities program, cause I make way more than all of them.
 

Maroon Eagle

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In RPGs, STEM folks would be Warriors, Humanities folks are Clerics, and Architects are Bards.
 
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