OT: Ouch! XFL lost $60 million

[18IsTheMan]

Absolutely brutal financial news.

For now the owners are keeping a stiff upper lip and maintaining that the league is in a good financial position. But they don't expect to be cash flow positive until 2027. It'll be interesting to see how long they're willing to absorb massive losses to keep afloat a sport for which there is no demand. This makes the WNBA look like one of the greatest financial successes of all time.

Of note, they get $20 million from ESPN. With all their issues, it'll be interesting to see if they're willing to keep kicking in wads of cash for a sport that seems to be going nowhere. Hard to justify subsidizing a financial money pit while you're simultaneously having to lay people off.

Report: XFL lost $60 million in 2023

The XFL could eventually be the ex-FL, again.

profootballtalk.nbcsports.com

 

[18IsTheMan]

This line from the article was quite intriguing to me: "And it’s surprising that no one has decided to dust off the old NFL rulebook of the ’80s and ’90s and embrace full-contract, old-school, rough-and-tumble football."

Bring back tackle football. Let QBs get hit. That could maybe be intersting.

 

[Harvard Gamecock]

 

[92Pony]

I hate that. It seems that an out-of-season league is just never going to work. I really enjoy watching football on TV. But, at the same time, I have to admit that I have rarely watched the XFL this, or any other "season", and I don't make it a priority. With warm weather and longer days, I'm much more focused on outdoor 'stuff'.

 

[18IsTheMan]

I hate that. It seems that an out-of-season league is just never going to work. I really enjoy watching football on TV. But, at the same time, I have to admit that I have rarely watched the XFL this, or any other "season", and I don't make it a priority. With warm weather and longer days, I'm much more focused on outdoor 'stuff'.

I honestly don't get the infatuation with trying to make it happen. There have been 7 iterations of spring football. None have been a ratings or financial success. Like you said, and as I have seen others comment, after being cooped up all winter, folks are ready to get outside and do stuff. And, we are conditioned to think of football as a fall/winter sport. My biological clock is basically set to football season kicking off the start of fall. I can't even really get into watching game replays in the offseason b/c it just doesn't feel like football season. During the season, though, I would watch Central Michigan vs ETSU on a Thursday night.

Back to my original point, though, it's baffling to me why people are obsessed with trying to make this work. It's been demonstrated over and over and over and over and over and over and over again that there's not much of an appetite for it.

I don't see the draw. It's not quality football. I watched about 2 minutes of a game this year and it was pitiful. It basically looked like a slightly more organized version of me playing in the street with my neighborhood pals. The aforementioned Central Michigan/ETSU matchup would provided better quality football. Further, there's no name appeal. No Tim Tebow or similar to draw fans in. Any of the modifications they employ just feel gimmicky.

 

[ToddFlanders]

They need to call the Saudis! They're always ready waste hundreds of millions of dollars on American sports with no expectation of a financial return.

 

[KOTR]

I honestly don't get the infatuation with trying to make it happen. There have been 7 iterations of spring football. None have been a ratings or financial success. Like you said, and as I have seen others comment, after being cooped up all winter, folks are ready to get outside and do stuff. And, we are conditioned to think of football as a fall/winter sport. My biological clock is basically set to football season kicking off the start of fall. I can't even really get into watching game replays in the offseason b/c it just doesn't feel like football season. During the season, though, I would watch Central Michigan vs ETSU on a Thursday night.

Back to my original point, though, it's baffling to me why people are obsessed with trying to make this work. It's been demonstrated over and over and over and over and over and over and over again that there's not much of an appetite for it.

At the same time, I couldn't begin to count the number of people I have heard say they wish football lasted longer. Would the reception be better if it were an established league? If so, then maybe more people should be willing to give something outside of the NFL a chance.

 

[18IsTheMan]

At the same time, I couldn't begin to count the number of people I have heard say they wish football lasted longer. Would the reception be better if it were an established league? If so, then maybe more people should be willing to give something outside of the NFL a chance.

I think the implication is that people wish good football would last longer. Don't we all? I hate the end of football season, but would I really want it to go on and on? Not actually. That's what makes the start of fall so great. It's like my kids asking for a treat after supper EVERY night. I have to explain to them if you get it every night, it's not a treat. Now suppose I offered them banana peels and coffee filters as a treat...they wouldn't be interested. That's basically what we're getting with spring football.

Just about every angle to make spring football a success has been tried. The only thing that hasn't been tried, as noted in the article, is old-school tackle football.

 

[KOTR]

I think the implication is that people wish good football would last longer. Don't we all? I hate the end of football season, but would I really want it to go on and on? Not actually. That's what makes the start of fall so great. It's like my kids asking for a treat after supper EVERY night. I have to explain to them if you get it every night, it's not a treat. Now suppose I offered them banana peels and coffee filters as a treat...they wouldn't be interested. That's basically what we're getting with spring football.

Just about every angle to make spring football a success has been tried. The only thing that hasn't been tried, as noted in the article, is old-school tackle football.

What makes something like the XFL so much worse than the NFL, though? The quality of players? The rules?

 

[18IsTheMan]

What makes something like the XFL so much worse than the NFL, though? The quality of players? The rules?

All of the above.

First and foremost is the quality of the players. I didn't watch much, but what I watched was not good. The best players play in the NFL. The next best players are on NFL practice squads. Then you've got guys who decided to do something else with their lives since they couldn't cut it at football. Then you've got spring football players.

It's apparent to me that the quality of the football isn't enough to carry the sport, which is why they have to add other "stuff".

 

[KOTR]

All of the above.

First and foremost is the quality of the players. I didn't watch much, but what I watched was not good. The best players play in the NFL. The next best players are on NFL practice squads. Then you've got guys who decided to do something else with their lives since they couldn't cut it at football. Then you've got spring football players.

It's apparent to me that the quality of the football isn't enough to carry the sport, which is why they have to add other "stuff".

But if the quality of football compared to the NFL is what's lacking, then why is college football such a huge draw? Personally, if I could remember to look it up, I would watch the games from the XFL and USFL. To be fair, I also don't remember to look up college or NFL games, too.

 

[18IsTheMan]

But if the quality of football compared to the NFL is what's lacking, then why is college football such a huge draw? Personally, if I could remember to look it up, I would watch the games from the XFL and USFL. To be fair, I also don't remember to look up college or NFL games, too.

From what little I've seen, the quality of the XFL was not even as good as that of most college games I saw. I don't doubt top college teams would beat XFL teams.

However, even if the XFL is overall better quality than college, it's still supposed to be "professional" football. I don't expect high school football to be better than college, nor would I expect college to be better than pro. I do expect the XFL, as professional football, to be considerably better than college, though. If the XFL is better than college, it's marginally so. There just doesn't seem to be a market for football that's a bit better than college but way worse than the NFL.

 

[KOTR]

From what little I've seen, the quality of the XFL was not even as good as that of most college games I saw. I don't doubt top college teams would beat XFL teams.

However, even if the XFL is overall better quality than college, it's still supposed to be "professional" football. I don't expect high school football to be better than college, nor would I expect college to be better than pro. I do expect the XFL, as professional football, to be considerably better than college, though. If the XFL is better than college, it's marginally so. There just doesn't seem to be a market for football that's a bit better than college but way worse than the NFL.

Perhaps we should think of it in tiers. We all know the XFL isn't going to be able to lure the top talent away from the NFL without the money, so why should we expect the level of play to be the same? Overall, I agree, though. For whatever reason(s), the interest just isn't there yet.

 

[will110]

I think the implication is that people wish good football would last longer. Don't we all? I hate the end of football season, but would I really want it to go on and on? Not actually. That's what makes the start of fall so great. It's like my kids asking for a treat after supper EVERY night. I have to explain to them if you get it every night, it's not a treat. Now suppose I offered them banana peels and coffee filters as a treat...they wouldn't be interested. That's basically what we're getting with spring football.

Just about every angle to make spring football a success has been tried. The only thing that hasn't been tried, as noted in the article, is old-school tackle football.

This is a great synopsis on why spring football leagues fail. I'd love to know the total dollars wasted on trying to make spring football work.

The one non-traditional football league that actually worked was the Arena League. It lasted for decades before it finally folded.

 

[18IsTheMan]

Perhaps we should think of it in tiers. We all know the XFL isn't going to be able to lure the top talent away from the NFL without the money, so why should we expect the level of play to be the same? Overall, I agree, though. For whatever reason(s), the interest just isn't there yet.

I can't say. But it's been tried 7 times. There just doesn't seem to be a niche for football that somewhere in-between college and NFL. Or really, between college and NFL practice squad. That's the thing. It's not just that these aren't guys who weren't quite good enough to make an NFL roster. They couldn't even make an NFL practice squad.

 

[will110]

But if the quality of football compared to the NFL is what's lacking, then why is college football such a huge draw? Personally, if I could remember to look it up, I would watch the games from the XFL and USFL. To be fair, I also don't remember to look up college or NFL games, too.

It's not just the football quality. It's the draw of names and brands. People watch college football because they've got a rooting interest, whether their alma mater or growing up watching a certain team with family/friends. The college brand, whether it's Carolina, Georgia, Texas, Oregon, or Ohio State, is what makes people watch.

It's the same thing with the NFL. These are franchises that have been around for at minimum decades, with a league that's been around for nearly a hundred years. The players are guys many fans cheered for and watched in college. There's a ton of name and brand recognition.

The XFL and USFL have none of that. They have arbitrary teams with no history full of players nobody's heard of. What's the point? You can't just create rooting interest and fan support overnight. Perhaps, if somebody (like the Saudis) had unlimited resources and didn't care about pouring it down a rathole, then perhaps spring football could work. Just keep doing it, over and over, until you forced people to notice. Pay college stars tons of money to skip the NFL and join your spring league.

The USFL tried that method...they got stars! Herschel Walker, Doug Flutie, etc. And it still didn't work because they couldn't make money.

 

[Cocky99]

• Average salary: $55,000
• Bi-weekly paycheck: $2,080
• Activation fee: $1,685
• Victory bonus: $2,222

The XFL salary is barely enough to cover rent in most areas. On the other hand the victory bonus is good motivation to win because they are going to NEED that $$$.

 

[18IsTheMan]

It's not just the football quality. It's the draw of names and brands. People watch college football because they've got a rooting interest, whether their alma mater or growing up watching a certain team with family/friends. The college brand, whether it's Carolina, Georgia, Texas, Oregon, or Ohio State, is what makes people watch.

It's the same thing with the NFL. These are franchises that have been around for at minimum decades, with a league that's been around for nearly a hundred years. The players are guys many fans cheered for and watched in college. There's a ton of name and brand recognition.

The XFL and USFL have none of that. They have arbitrary teams with no history full of players nobody's heard of. What's the point? You can't just create rooting interest and fan support overnight. Perhaps, if somebody (like the Saudis) had unlimited resources and didn't care about pouring it down a rathole, then perhaps spring football could work. Just keep doing it, over and over, until you forced people to notice. Pay college stars tons of money to skip the NFL and join your spring league.

The USFL tried that method...they got stars! Herschel Walker, Doug Flutie, etc. And it still didn't work because they couldn't make money.

Yep, excellent point. College teams, especially, have deep, deep roots with their fanbases.

As noted in the OP, they don't expect to turn a profit until 2027. For now they are soldiering on, but it'll be interesting to see if all invested parties will be willing to suck it up for that long. It would take something like Saudi money, I think. Even if they can eventually be profitable, how much profit can they realistically expect to make?

This is kind of like the WNBA in that it's a sport nobody wants. Unlike the WNBA, the NFL is going to bail them out for 25 years for the sake of political correctness.

 

[will110]

Yep, excellent point. College teams, especially, have deep, deep roots with their fanbases.

As noted in the OP, they don't expect to turn a profit until 2027. For now they are soldiering on, but it'll be interesting to see if all invested parties will be willing to suck it up for that long. It would take something like Saudi money, I think. Even if they can eventually be profitable, how much profit can they realistically expect to make?

This is kind of like the WNBA in that it's a sport nobody wants. Unlike the WNBA, the NFL is going to bail them out for 25 years for the sake of political correctness.

At least with the WNBA there actually are people that want it. There are many WBB players who have a goal of making the WNBA. It might be a fairly small group, but there are people who watch/attend/keep up with the WNBA. I am not one of them, but I do know they exist.

With the XFL/USFL, nobody wants it.

 

[18IsTheMan]

At least with the WNBA there actually are people that want it. There are many WBB players who have a goal of making the WNBA. It might be a fairly small group, but there are people who watch/attend/keep up with the WNBA. I am not one of them, but I do know they exist.

With the XFL/USFL, nobody wants it.

Not many: "The average attendance for WNBA games in 2022 was just 5,679. American Hockey League games this past season averaged 5,651.

Minor-league hockey with teams in podunk towns like Bakersfield, Grand Rapids, Hershey, Utica and Wilkes-Barre/Scranton drew almost identically to the world’s top league for women’s basketball, which has franchises in major markets and big-time arenas. A national TV contract, too."

WNBA is roughly as popular as minor league hockey.

Mark Madden: Attendance doesn't lie when it comes to Brittney Griner's return to WNBA

Brittney Griner made her return to the WNBA on Friday when her Phoenix team visited Los Angeles. Griner missed the 2022 season while she was imprisoned 10 months in Russia for carrying a controlled substance (cannabis vape cartridges) through a Moscow airport. Vice President Kamala Harris...

triblive.com

 

[Rogue Cock]

All of the above.

First and foremost is the quality of the players. I didn't watch much, but what I watched was not good. The best players play in the NFL. The next best players are on NFL practice squads. Then you've got guys who decided to do something else with their lives since they couldn't cut it at football. Then you've got spring football players.

It's apparent to me that the quality of the football isn't enough to carry the sport, which is why they have to add other "stuff".

I think the only way a spring league like this will draw interest is if the NFL absorbs it, puts the franchises in cities that aren't already represented by the NFL and the NFL uses it as a "minor league" to develop younger players.

 

[mickray]

LIV Football?

 

[18IsTheMan]

I think the only way a spring league like this will draw interest is if the NFL absorbs it, puts the franchises in cities that aren't already represented by the NFL and the NFL uses it as a "minor league" to develop younger players.

That would probably work, but I'm not sure where the players would come from. The NFL has never had any interest in a minor league b/c they have college football for free. Unless players could go straight from high school to the NFL minor league, it would still consist of the same quality of players it currently does. I sure hope the former never happens.

 

[Forkcock]

There can only be one NFL, one MLB.

The NBA is a joke.

 

[Tngamecock]

At the same time, I couldn't begin to count the number of people I have heard say they wish football lasted longer. Would the reception be better if it were an established league? If so, then maybe more people should be willing to give something outside of the NFL a chance.

Like Bill Burr says "so now it's my job to give a damn about the WNBA?" He's right. I flipped on a game.......I watched 3 plays and realized how much I don't care. Watching guys you never heard of play football in an empty stadium to me is the equivalent on turning on a 7 v 7 high school game on Youtube. I don't.