OT: Why can't America figure it out for men's soccer?

18IsTheMan

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I don't really care that much about soccer, but after our showing at the Olympics, I heard one commentator say "It's baffling that a country of 330 million people can't field a competitive soccer team" and that led me to look up who we lost to. We got skunked 4-0 by Morocco, a country of 37 million, roughly equivalent to the combined populations of Texas and Tennessee. Likewise skunked by France, a nation of 67 million. Our only 2 wins came over New Zealand and Guinea, with a combined population of 18 million.

It does seem rather improbable that, from a population of 333 million, we can't find 18 players to be competitive. It's not for lack of effort. I'm always hearing how soccer is growing in popularity, and have been hearing this for quite some time now. But we're no better than we ever have been. Soccer was invented in 1848 (estimated with the formal drawing up of rules at Cambridge) and the first recorded match here was in 1876, so it's not like we're that much farther behind the world in terms of playing the game. The French joined FIFA in 1904 and we were granted admission in 1913. So, again, we've been in the mix more or less since the beginning.

It just never caught on. This in spite of constant efforts to re-tool and reinvigorate interest in the sport. Even so, you would think with 333 million people, even without intensive efforts, we could find at least 11 players to make us more respectable. Germany and Italy are dominant in the sport, winning 4 World Cup titles each, though only boasting populations of 59 and 84 million, respectively.

(We did get ahead of the curve in women's soccer, which is decidedly less important than men's soccer in other countries.)

Contrast this with basketball. A uniquely American sport which we thoroughly dominated (once the playing field was leveled and our pros were allowed to compete with other nations pros). European nations, though decidedly late to the game, have drastically closed the gap (and in some years eliminated it) with America in basketball.
 
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Evilchicken

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It really has nothing to with population. China and India have 1.3 billion folks and they have NO soccer presence. It has to do with youth programs, the way they develop players to go pro. We have a collegiate system and it’s very different.
 

18IsTheMan

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It really has nothing to with population. China and India have 1.3 billion folks and they have NO soccer presence. It has to do with youth programs, the way they develop players to go pro. We have a collegiate system and it’s very different.

But we have presumably been trying very hard for a while now. Lots of grassroots efforts. Tons of youth soccer programs. A great deal of effort has been put into making soccer more popular here.

India faces many hurdles, including funding and infrastructure. India is big, but it's a developing nation, much of which would be considered 3rd world. What you have said about us is certainly true about China, but we have put a great deal of effort into the growing the game here. We created a professional soccer league to help grow the game.

In spite of efforts to grow the game, our best ever World Cup finish dates to 1930 when we finished 3rd.
 
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Lurker123

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We do have a lot of effort putbinto youth soccer now. But th8nk back to your younger days, what sports did you and the other kids play?

Our best athletes play football and basketball. Soccer is at best 3rd here in America for attracting talent. In other countries, it's the top.
 

18IsTheMan

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We do have a lot of effort putbinto youth soccer now. But th8nk back to your younger days, what sports did you and the other kids play?

Our best athletes play football and basketball. Soccer is at best 3rd here in America for attracting talent. In other countries, it's the top.

It's THE NUMBER ONE SPORT in these other countries. That will never be the case here. We have too many other sports that we like more. Much more.

Yep, but you would think with the effort we have put into the growing the game, we would have been able to develop 11 players. Even if other sports are far more popular, you would think with our size there would be 11 players out who would be good enough.

Unless the answer is: soccer really isn't growing in popularity here as we are we are told by others. I don't see how it's possible with the effort we have put into the growing the game, if it was really increasing in popularity, we haven't made a dent in the quality of our national team.

I was rebuked in this forum (previous iteration) some years back for suggesting that soccer really isn't all that popular here. I was given all sorts of facts and figures to show that the game is growing. Why hasn't that borne fruit?
 

Lurker123

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I was rebuked in this forum (previous iteration) some years back for suggesting that soccer really isn't all that popular here. I was given all sorts of facts and figures to show that the game is growing. Why hasn't that borne fruit?

I believe it has grown in popularity, it's just still so far behind the others.

When a population is small, even small increases can be spun as an improvement.
 
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Irvin Snibbley

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Soccer is very popular with the younger crowd.We actually have finallly produced a very talented generation of young players but through poor coaching and mismanagement are in the process of squandering it.
Our youth system does a poor job maximizing talent but 2 things have happened to help.The big European clubs are signing our best young players and developing them in their system and we have been the beneficiary of several dual citizen players that have selected the US to play for in international matches.
If you look at our national team it’s clear it’s not the white suburban game any longer.That seems to be lacrosse these days.
 

18IsTheMan

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I go back to the basketball comparison. We have been playing soccer more or less since the start of the sport, but are woefully behind the rest of the world.

The rest of the world didn’t really start pushing basketball until relatively recently (comparatively). Yet they have largely closed the gap with the US.
 

Evilchicken

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The major differences between European and South American soccer vs USA are these:

Soccer culture is #1. Generations of parents and their parents have played in the streets, after school, on fields and playgrounds 24/7. Not too dissimilar to football culture in Texas! Kids are pressured from early on to play soccer in other countries.

Youth development! Children in other countries are identified for strengths and talents starting around age 6. They are grouped and weeded out by discerning coaches and clubs all the way up to U18 levels on a city-wide and country-wide scale.

Better coaches! European clubs in particular have pro level youth coaches who develop players to play at the international level. That’s why you often see foreign coaches in US club level leagues—they’re the best.

Pro goals vs Collegiate goals! Foreign soccer focuses on getting to the professional level, versus the largely collegiate system in the US, where kids are satisfied with scholarships. In Europe, the kids want to play pro. The focus and desire is simply different. Our basketball culture in the US is a good analogy.
 
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PrestonyteParrot

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Yep, but you would think with the effort we have put into the growing the game, we would have been able to develop 11 players. Even if other sports are far more popular, you would think with our size there would be 11 players out who would be good enough.

Unless the answer is: soccer really isn't growing in popularity here as we are we are told by others. I don't see how it's possible with the effort we have put into the growing the game, if it was really increasing in popularity, we haven't made a dent in the quality of our national team.

I was rebuked in this forum (previous iteration) some years back for suggesting that soccer really isn't all that popular here. I was given all sorts of facts and figures to show that the game is growing. Why hasn't that borne fruit?
I think it has grown in popularity but not as a sport. From what I've seen, it has grown tremendously as a social gathering event for parents and a play date for large numbers of children and nothing more. The seriousness for the sport itself is lacking. It is much easier for non-athletic children who are not serious about sports to participate in soccer than other skill sports by just running up and down the field kicking a ball. When friends ask what sport they play, soccer is an easy go to answer. For the soccer fanatics, I KNOW THERE ARE TREMENDOUS SKILLS INVOLVED FOR SERIOUS SOCCER PLAYERS, but the majority of youth soccer programs are not that serious and are supervised more than they are coached.
 
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18IsTheMan

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The major differences between European and South American soccer vs USA are these:

Soccer culture is #1. Generations of parents and their parents have played in the streets, after school, on fields and playgrounds 24/7. Not too dissimilar to football culture in Texas! Kids are pressured from early on to play soccer in other countries.

Youth development! Children in other countries are identified for strengths and talents starting around age 6. They are grouped and weeded out by discerning coaches and clubs all the way up to U18 levels on a city-wide and country-wide scale.

Better coaches! European clubs in particular have pro level youth coaches who develop players to play at the international level. That’s why you often see foreign coaches in US club level leagues—they’re the best.

Pro goals vs Collegiate goals! Foreign soccer focuses on getting to the professional level, versus the largely collegiate system in the US, where kids are satisfied with scholarships. In Europe, the kids want to play pro. The focus and desire is simply different. Our basketball culture in the US is a good analogy.
Why can’t we do in soccer what the rest of the world did in basketball? Look at the progress the rest of the world has made in basketball since the first dream team. Basketball is not close to the most popular sport in these other countries and they haven’t been playing it for generations like soccer. Yet they have largely closed the gap.

We have not progressed at all in soccer in that time frame and have arguably regressed at times.
 

Gamecock Jacque

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We have been playing soccer more or less since the start of the sport, but are woefully behind the rest of the world.
The US men's national team was ranked no. 4 in the world in 2006. They're currently ranked 16th but have been in the top ten several times. Considering how many countries there are in the world where soccer is the major sport, what is your definition of competitive? I think we do alright for a country where most people really don't give a crap about it.
 

Atlanta Cock

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I go back to the basketball comparison. We have been playing soccer more or less since the start of the sport, but are woefully behind the rest of the world.

The rest of the world didn’t really start pushing basketball until relatively recently (comparatively). Yet they have largely closed the gap with the US.
The rest of the world doesn't have college sports like we do. We have a plethora of teams to follow and support on different levels.
 

TheByrdman

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There are currently young players with talent. However, they are still at a disadvantage. You do not see guys between 6’’2” and 6’6” in the 215-230 lb range playing soccer that are Americans. The Germans have players built like this on their rosters doing the physical and dirty work on the pitch. In America, guys of this physique are playing football. It’s all about our culture.
 

18IsTheMan

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The US men's national team was ranked no. 4 in the world in 2006. They're currently ranked 16th but have been in the top ten several times. Considering how many countries there are in the world where soccer is the major sport, what is your definition of competitive? I think we do alright for a country where most people really don't give a crap about it.

I don't know what the rankings mean if we stink it up in the World Cup and Olympics.
 
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18IsTheMan

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There are currently young players with talent. However, they are still at a disadvantage. You do not see guys between 6’’2” and 6’6” in the 215-230 lb range playing soccer that are Americans. The Germans have players built like this on their rosters doing the physical and dirty work on the pitch. In America, guys of this physique are playing football. It’s all about our culture.

Right. I think it boils down to this: culture. Americans simply don't care about soccer. I mean REALLY care. Sure, some will pretend to get all excited about Premier League and all that and get jazzed up about seeing European teams play here, but it's more of a novelty. There seems to be kind of a fascination with wanting to appear to like soccer like the rest of the world. But, when it comes down to it, the first loves are football/basketball/baseball.
 
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Harvard Gamecock

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Perhaps those that organize mens USA teams should look at the model of USA women teams. They have managed to successfully participate at the highest level and bring the hardware home
 

18IsTheMan

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Perhaps those that organize mens USA teams should look at the model of USA women teams. They have managed to successfully participate at the highest level and bring the hardware home

One major factor here is that while the US pushed Title IX to increase women's sports, other countries put outright bans on women's soccer. Soccer was considered a sport for men only. This wiki page summarizes pretty well how the United States was able to become dominant in women's soccer.


"The banning of women's football severely stunted the growth of the sport, in some countries effectively killing the sport entirely for decades, and to have forced the sport to effectively restart from zero in the late-20th century.[41] Writer David Goldblatt has stated that the bans had the effect of reducing women's football "to a tiny and stigmatised subculture subsisting in the marginal spaces of municipal recreation grounds."[29] Furthermore, even after the bans were lifted, the levels of investment into the sport have often been significantly lower than they had been prior to the bans.[42] As the sport had grown during its first golden age to the point where matches attracted similar audiences to men's games, the bans have been cited as a major factor in the gap in popularity between the sport and its male counterparts."

The USWNT didn't form until 1985. Other countries were playing women's soccer by then, but it was highly stigmatized and marginalized. In contrast to the men's game the growth of the women's game was stunted by the bans. All those countries were basically starting from scratch with women's soccer in the 70s and 80s, so the US was basically on even footing. Even today, though, women's soccer pales in popularity to men's soccer in other countries. Basically how soccer here pales in popularity to football.
 
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PrestonyteParrot

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Right. I think it boils down to this: culture. Americans simply don't care about soccer. I mean REALLY care. Sure, some will pretend to get all excited about Premier League and all that and get jazzed up about seeing European teams play here, but it's more of a novelty. There seems to be kind of a fascination with wanting to appear to like soccer like the rest of the world. But, when it comes down to it, the first loves are football/basketball/baseball.
Agree. The skilled athletes play football/basketball/baseball and for the most part it's the non-skilled athletes playing soccer.
In America, soccer is the ''participation trophy'' sport for parents of non-skilled athletes with a social network built around it for the parents.
 
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RUMMENIGGE

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Olympics men's soccer has restrictions on who can represent their team. United states men's soccer team along with the rest of the teams can only let the players that competed in the U-23 teams be on the Olympic roster. I could be wrong, but I think eight players from the United States men's national team could be categorized as U-23 but decided not to participate in the 2024 Olympics.

Brasil, Germany, Italy, England, Austria, Netherlands, Sweeden, Cameroon, Ghana, Nigeria Austraila, South Korea and Mexico did not field a men's soccer team in the 2024 Olympics.
 

Uscg1984

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Perhaps those that organize mens USA teams should look at the model of USA women teams. They have managed to successfully participate at the highest level and bring the hardware home
That may have more to do with the relative importance of women's soccer in those other countries than anything in particular the USWNT is doing differently than the men. Is there anything in Europe or the rest of the world that would match the competitive participation of college women's soccer in the US? My impression is that in the rest of the world, girls aren't playing high-level competitive soccer beyond youth leagues, at least not in large numbers.
 

will110

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I follow the US men's national team and read articles from time-to-time about US soccer, but I'm not a general soccer fan. That said, I think the main problem is with the US Soccer Federation. It's an extremely inept organization run corruptly and/or inefficiently. For example, Gregg Berhalter's brother was a high ranking officer in US Soccer. Is it any surprise that Berhalter was hired, not once, but twice to be head coach of the men's national team? The second problem is CONCACAF membership. USMNT has typically been pretty good in our confederation, with, for example, 7 Gold Cup titles and 5 runners-up. The problem, though, is CONCACAF is a very different animal from the UEFA and CONMEBOL, which we just saw a glaring example of this summer.

After watching USMNT in the Copa America and Olympics, and watching just a little bit of the exhibition at Williams-Brice, it was crazy to see the difference. It was like night and day. I have to think getting a good coach who will hold players accountable and install a system that fits the players' abilities would reap dividends.
 

Gamecock Jacque

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I think the main problem is with the US Soccer Federation. It's an extremely inept organization
I think you're right. As of October 2023, there were 70 American players in the Bundesliga for the 2023/24 season.
The U.S. contingent on Premier League rosters may have diminished in the last couple of months, but the group is still solid. Even after Serie A became the summer's hot new league to play in for U.S. men's national team players, nine remain on rosters in the English top flight. So obviously we are not totally devoid of world class talent.
 

will110

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I think you're right. As of October 2023, there were 70 American players in the Bundesliga for the 2023/24 season.
The U.S. contingent on Premier League rosters may have diminished in the last couple of months, but the group is still solid. Even after Serie A became the summer's hot new league to play in for U.S. men's national team players, nine remain on rosters in the English top flight. So obviously we are not totally devoid of talent.
There's definitely talent. It's not top flight talent like some of the top national teams, but USMNT should not be getting embarrassed by Morocco or losing to Panama in major tournaments.
 
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Gamecock Jacque

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There's definitely talent. It's not top flight talent like some of the top national teams, but USMNT should not be getting embarrassed by Morocco or losing to Panama in major tournaments.
I should have specified individual talent. Of course it's a TEAM sport and I think it's the cohesiveness that is lacking. That's on the organization.
 
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ZeppelinCock

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Basketball, football , and baseball are all played in urban areas. Soccer not so much. Until young black kids pick up soccer and dominate it like basketball and football....soccer will always be a second hand sport in the USA. It may change in time but right now I dont think you see too much soccer being played by talented young black kids that will always pick football or basketball, and will probably pick baseball over soccer
 

Cocky Jeff

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It really has nothing to with population. China and India have 1.3 billion folks and they have NO soccer presence. It has to do with youth programs, the way they develop players to go pro. We have a collegiate system and it’s very different.
Not enough coaches is a major issue.
 

uscphan

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The pay to play model just doesn’t work for soccer in the US like it does for other sports. Too many coaches in it for the money but aren’t any good at coaching. Many talented kids can’t afford it or their parents choose to put their money into other sports. If your kid was a superstar and equally into soccer, football, basketball and baseball, but he had to choose one, which one are you advising him to play? Where would soccer rank?
 

18IsTheMan

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Comparing it to basketball, we haven't had an American win the NBA MVP in 7 years.

How many Americans have gone and dominated soccer leagues in Europe?
 
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Gamecock72

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Outside of youth soccer when the kids are younger, it just is not a popular sport to play for the older kids. Not enough playing interest to make much of a difference.
 
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Gamecock72

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Yep, but you would think with the effort we have put into the growing the game, we would have been able to develop 11 players. Even if other sports are far more popular, you would think with our size there would be 11 players out who would be good enough.

Unless the answer is: soccer really isn't growing in popularity here as we are we are told by others. I don't see how it's possible with the effort we have put into the growing the game, if it was really increasing in popularity, we haven't made a dent in the quality of our national team.

I was rebuked in this forum (previous iteration) some years back for suggesting that soccer really isn't all that popular here. I was given all sorts of facts and figures to show that the game is growing. Why hasn't that borne fruit?
They develop players but nowhere near the level of the other places. Just not as large of a pool of kids interested in it to develop.
 

18IsTheMan

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Outside of youth soccer when the kids are younger, it just is not a popular sport to play for the older kids. Not enough playing interest to make much of a difference.

I wonder why that is. I know lots of folks who have their kids in youth soccer, some devotedly so. It seems to dominate some of their lives. It seems to be one of the more popular youth sports, if not the most. But few kids actually go on to play soccer at much higher levels.

Maybe it's popular because it's cheap. Don't need much in the way gear. Also, kids get lots of exercise.
 
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