Private vs. Public Schools

Alphalion75

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I'm trying to understand the differences in the dynamics between Pennsylvania and Georgia and private vs. public schools football. In Pa. the private schools seem to dominate while in Georgia the public schools continue to dominate. I'm guessing that the rules are different for public school enrollment than in Pa. I don't know that much about it. Anyone here have any insight to this subject?
 
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84lion

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It's been awhile, but most of the private schools I remember in PA were Catholic-affiliated. Here in Georgia, most of the really big churches are Baptist - there is one Catholic church near us but I'm not sure if they even have a school associated with the church. Most of the big Baptist churches don't seem to have big schools or a huge football program/presence. I seem to remember a private non-denominational school in Atlanta that might have had a pretty good football program going at one time - the name of the institution escapes me at the moment.

I think most people in Georgia choose a private school for education, primarily, rather than religious reasons. Our son did graduate from a private school, which our daughter did attend until she decided she wanted to go to the local high school for educational and social reasons (she wanted to join teams and was on the cross-country and track teams).

I think the bigger difference here in Georgia is that the Baptist churches, while huge, are focused on religion as opposed to education, and not focused on athletics. That gives the local high schools the upper hand. And remember that a lot of people here in Georgia are transplants (myself included), and thus don't think about a school for their kids based on "our family went there."

I suspect that there is a lot of "gamesmanship" in recruiting, and kids' families may not have to live in the school district they play for, here in Georgia - I don't know.
 

rigi19040

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I'm trying to understand the differences in the dynamics between Pennsylvania and Georgia and private vs. public schools football. In Pa. the private schools seem to dominate while in Georgia the public schools continue to dominate. I'm guessing that the rules are different for public school enrollment than in Pa. I don't know that much about it. Anyone here have any insight to this subject?


PUblic schools build their team from whoever shows up at the first practice. Public schools coaches are recruiting the hallways of the school.

Private schools are recruiting and offering scholarships to kids in neighboring districts. Pa private schools even recruit kids from other states.

Should't athletes in the PIAA playoffs actually be from Pennsylvania?
 

doctornick

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The difference is more extreme in Maryland where private schools have a long established presence (it was the Catholic colony after all) and have long actively recruited for football and other sports. I'm trying to think as to what would be the "best" of the public schools in Maryland - I guess Quince Orchard?
 
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Alphalion75

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PUblic schools build their team from whoever shows up at the first practice. Public schools coaches are recruiting the hallways of the school.

Private schools are recruiting and offering scholarships to kids in neighboring districts. Pa private schools even recruit kids from other states.

Should't athletes in the PIAA playoffs actually be from Pennsylvania?
I understand the concept. My question is why what has happened in Pa. hasn't occurred in Georgia. I'm not sure, but maybe it has to do with numbers. There are so many good athletes in Georgia that the private schools can't recruit all of them.
 
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Alphalion75

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It's been awhile, but most of the private schools I remember in PA were Catholic-affiliated. Here in Georgia, most of the really big churches are Baptist - there is one Catholic church near us but I'm not sure if they even have a school associated with the church. Most of the big Baptist churches don't seem to have big schools or a huge football program/presence. I seem to remember a private non-denominational school in Atlanta that might have had a pretty good football program going at one time - the name of the institution escapes me at the moment.

I think most people in Georgia choose a private school for education, primarily, rather than religious reasons. Our son did graduate from a private school, which our daughter did attend until she decided she wanted to go to the local high school for educational and social reasons (she wanted to join teams and was on the cross-country and track teams).

I think the bigger difference here in Georgia is that the Baptist churches, while huge, are focused on religion as opposed to education, and not focused on athletics. That gives the local high schools the upper hand. And remember that a lot of people here in Georgia are transplants (myself included), and thus don't think about a school for their kids based on "our family went there."

I suspect that there is a lot of "gamesmanship" in recruiting, and kids' families may not have to live in the school district they play for, here in Georgia - I don't know.
I just read that recruiting by public schools is forbidden. But I do believe some coaches find loopholes. Anyway, you are correct that there are few Catholic schools in Georgia. However, there are many non-Catholic private schools who do seem to place some prioty on sports, such as Blessed Trinity, St. Frances and Atanta Christian. I believe it's numbers more than anything else. There is such a plethora of talent in Georgia such that the private schools can't corner the market. I'm just looking at the talent of the local high schools. Each school seems to have 5, 6. 7 or more Division 1 commitments. Whereas in Pa. You may just have 1 or 2 or none. So much more talent here in Georgia.
 
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troutrus

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I’ve always just assumed that Catholics are better athletes than Publics.
 
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LB99

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I’ve always just assumed that Catholics are better athletes than Publics.
Yeah, that’s it. Lol. I wonder how many of those athletes at the Catholic schools were actually brought up Catholic? Probably about the same amount of people wearing ND shirts and hats that actually went there.
 

TheBigUglies

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Here is what I know in Pennsylvania in the Philly burbs and some in central PA. First lets define "recruit", I know a lot of coaches have summer camps for non-high school kids and they promote their high school programs during these camps by having high school players help at the camps in hopes of kids wanting to come play ball at their high school they coach out. I don't feel like this is recruiting but more marketing. Recruiting to me would be a coach/booster identifies a kid that has talent/portential/size/etc, goes up to that kid and offers them a scholarship to come to the coaches high school or somehow gets them to enroll in their high school(in the case of public schools). Now, for a private school to offer a scholarship to a kid, they have to have the money or someway of waiving tuition for the kid. There are the haves(St Joe's Prep, Lasalle, Roman Catholic) and the have nots(Pope Paul IV, Shanahan, etc) that can make this happen. From my experience, programs also draw kids to the program. Private school programs can draw kids from many surrounding school districts(Archbishop Wood when they were really good)(Bishop McCourt in Altoona draws kids from Altoona/Holidaysburg/Tyrone/etc). Public schools are limited by the kids being a resident in the school district(you can only play for CB West if you lived in the school district geographic location) however, coaches sometimes found ways around that. CB West had a good QB from New Hope/Solebury school district but New Hope/Solebury did not have a football and so in that case he was permitted to play for CB West. Sometimes parents would move into the school district and/or establish residency so their kid can go to that school. Seen it happen between Holidaysburg/Altoona/State College. Lastly I have heard of kids using relatives addresses in a school district so they could compete for another school district they didn't live in because the sport was better. Bottom line is that the better programs attract better players and sometimes those players(or crazy parents who think every one of their kids is D1) want to play for the better programs to hopefully get recruited. In my observation it is barely about academics. I think I ended up rambling but I enjoy this topic.
 

Bison13

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I understand the concept. My question is why what has happened in Pa. hasn't occurred in Georgia. I'm not sure, but maybe it has to do with numbers. There are so many good athletes in Georgia that the private schools can't recruit all of them.
I’ll give you part of it, public schools in Georgia are more likely to hire a person as a football coach first and give them a huge salary with very limited teaching requirements. Many times the football coach is the third or fourth highest paid in the entire district behind the superintendent and some principals.
In Pennsylvania and other states unions have it written in that you must hire a teacher first, and they also have negotiate stipends which tend to be much smaller than what those in schools in the south have.
I was offered a job a few years back to coach baseball in Georgia, the job offer did require me to teach, but also gave me two extra periods a day where I would be able to have my entire team in my classroom or out on the field to do anything that I wanted. so it’s from my experiences during that interview process that the public school systems there are willing to put much more capital into having winning programs at the public school level than many states do.
 

wplion

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I live in North Carolina where we have had this same argument/battle forever. Only a few Catholic schools (who are always very good) and some High $ private schools. The Catholic schools play by rules set by the Public school system and compete with the public system. Funny, a number of the Public Schools that have won championships are the ones that got caught cheating.

It is all for naught as now NIL is a thing for all High School athletes. What a mess.
 

Alphalion75

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I’ll give you part of it, public schools in Georgia are more likely to hire a person as a football coach first and give them a huge salary with very limited teaching requirements. Many times the football coach is the third or fourth highest paid in the entire district behind the superintendent and some principals.
In Pennsylvania and other states unions have it written in that you must hire a teacher first, and they also have negotiate stipends which tend to be much smaller than what those in schools in the south have.
I was offered a job a few years back to coach baseball in Georgia, the job offer did require me to teach, but also gave me two extra periods a day where I would be able to have my entire team in my classroom or out on the field to do anything that I wanted. so it’s from my experiences during that interview process that the public school systems there are willing to put much more capital into having winning programs at the public school level than many states do.
No doubt about it that athletics sits high on rhe priority list in Georgia. Look at the stadiums and the fan support. Sometimes it can be over the top. There is an upside and downside to this of course. One upside is that many of these kids go onto pro careers snd many of them give back to their high schools and communities. I see that all the time here. And interesting is that not all the give back goes to athletics.
 
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LB99

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No doubt about it that athletics sits high on rhe priority list in Georgia. Look at the stadiums and the fan support. Sometimes it can be over the top. There is an upside and downside to this of course. One upside is that many of these kids go onto pro careers snd many of them give back to their high schools and communities. I see that all the time here. And interesting is that not all the give back goes to athletics.
What’s the downside? They read at a 4th grade level since academics isn’t a priority?
 
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Relayer

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Here is what I know in Pennsylvania in the Philly burbs and some in central PA. First lets define "recruit", I know a lot of coaches have summer camps for non-high school kids and they promote their high school programs during these camps by having high school players help at the camps in hopes of kids wanting to come play ball at their high school they coach out. I don't feel like this is recruiting but more marketing. Recruiting to me would be a coach/booster identifies a kid that has talent/portential/size/etc, goes up to that kid and offers them a scholarship to come to the coaches high school or somehow gets them to enroll in their high school(in the case of public schools). Now, for a private school to offer a scholarship to a kid, they have to have the money or someway of waiving tuition for the kid. There are the haves(St Joe's Prep, Lasalle, Roman Catholic) and the have nots(Pope Paul IV, Shanahan, etc) that can make this happen. From my experience, programs also draw kids to the program. Private school programs can draw kids from many surrounding school districts(Archbishop Wood when they were really good)(Bishop McCourt in Altoona draws kids from Altoona/Holidaysburg/Tyrone/etc). Public schools are limited by the kids being a resident in the school district(you can only play for CB West if you lived in the school district geographic location) however, coaches sometimes found ways around that. CB West had a good QB from New Hope/Solebury school district but New Hope/Solebury did not have a football and so in that case he was permitted to play for CB West. Sometimes parents would move into the school district and/or establish residency so their kid can go to that school. Seen it happen between Holidaysburg/Altoona/State College. Lastly I have heard of kids using relatives addresses in a school district so they could compete for another school district they didn't live in because the sport was better. Bottom line is that the better programs attract better players and sometimes those players(or crazy parents who think every one of their kids is D1) want to play for the better programs to hopefully get recruited. In my observation it is barely about academics. I think I ended up rambling but I enjoy this topic.
I agree with most everything you said. The issue in PA is boundary schools vs non-boundary. When Prep can draw kids from all of SE PA and South Jersey, the best pubs can't match the talent. The Prep program sells itself. They play a national schedule to start the season, get on ESPN, and have great odds of playing for a state championship. That's pretty enticing. One would also have to be naive to think those players are paying full tuition.

Another factor I've noticed in recent years is the fall of the great pubs, especially in SE PA. We'll never see teams again like CB West in the 80's and 90's. The 2003 North Penn team was stacked and won all 15 games by double digits. Those days are gone.
 

L.A.Lion

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Here is what I know in Pennsylvania in the Philly burbs and some in central PA. First lets define "recruit", I know a lot of coaches have summer camps for non-high school kids and they promote their high school programs during these camps by having high school players help at the camps in hopes of kids wanting to come play ball at their high school they coach out. I don't feel like this is recruiting but more marketing. Recruiting to me would be a coach/booster identifies a kid that has talent/portential/size/etc, goes up to that kid and offers them a scholarship to come to the coaches high school or somehow gets them to enroll in their high school(in the case of public schools). Now, for a private school to offer a scholarship to a kid, they have to have the money or someway of waiving tuition for the kid. There are the haves(St Joe's Prep, Lasalle, Roman Catholic) and the have nots(Pope Paul IV, Shanahan, etc) that can make this happen. From my experience, programs also draw kids to the program. Private school programs can draw kids from many surrounding school districts(Archbishop Wood when they were really good)(Bishop McCourt in Altoona draws kids from Altoona/Holidaysburg/Tyrone/etc). Public schools are limited by the kids being a resident in the school district(you can only play for CB West if you lived in the school district geographic location) however, coaches sometimes found ways around that. CB West had a good QB from New Hope/Solebury school district but New Hope/Solebury did not have a football and so in that case he was permitted to play for CB West. Sometimes parents would move into the school district and/or establish residency so their kid can go to that school. Seen it happen between Holidaysburg/Altoona/State College. Lastly I have heard of kids using relatives addresses in a school district so they could compete for another school district they didn't live in because the sport was better. Bottom line is that the better programs attract better players and sometimes those players(or crazy parents who think every one of their kids is D1) want to play for the better programs to hopefully get recruited. In my observation it is barely about academics. I think I ended up rambling but I enjoy this topic.
Once upon a time, people associated with CB West did recruit but they did it sneakily through the Warrington Athletic Association, which was known as a hypercompetitive youth sports program back when I was walking barefoot to and from school uphill both ways in whiteout blizzards. The Pettines know football, but convincing families of better athletes to move into the CB school district was part of the plan. Not even a genius can win consistently over several decades without putting the horses out on the field.
 
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LB99

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I agree with most everything you said. The issue in PA is boundary schools vs non-boundary. When Prep can draw kids from all of SE PA and South Jersey, the best pubs can't match the talent. The Prep program sells itself. They play a national schedule to start the season, get on ESPN, and have great odds of playing for a state championship. That's pretty enticing. One would also have to be naive to think those players are paying full tuition.

Another factor I've noticed in recent years is the fall of the great pubs, especially in SE PA. We'll never see teams again like CB West in the 80's and 90's. The 2003 North Penn team was stacked and won all 15 games by double digits. Those days are gone.
Wasn’t Aliquippa still pretty dominant the last few years?
 
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Alphalion75

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What’s the downside? They read at a 4th grade level since academics isn’t a priority?
Naturally some aspects of schools may not benefit. But generally the public schools in Atlanta suburbs are very good academically with SAT scores typically higher than the national average.
 
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Mrdibbs

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I think that TheBigUglies' post above (#10) is really very accurate.
Most of the private schools are not in a financial position to permit anybody to attend/play on a "scholarship". This does not consider the possibility of a sugar daddy paying the student/athlete's cost of enrollment.
I had 4 kids go to Catholic HS here in Pittsburgh starting g in the late 90s to 2009 and the bill for a year of this education was in the vicinity of 5k to 6.5k per year, per student. I think that bill today would be easily in excess of 10k per year.
If the word got out that Aurelious Maximus, star quarterback and point guard, was attending free of charge from the school's coffers, the other paying customers would raise holy heck and the system would suffer.
My views are from Pittsburgh. The cost numbers in Philly would be higher.

Interesting to note that 6 of the 12 high school football teams competing in the PIAA championships this weekend (Th,F,Sa) are Catholic schools.

In other sports AND in girls sports, that percentage will be higher.
 

Moogy

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No doubt about it that athletics sits high on rhe priority list in Georgia. Look at the stadiums and the fan support. Sometimes it can be over the top. There is an upside and downside to this of course. One upside is that many of these kids go onto pro careers snd many of them give back to their high schools and communities. I see that all the time here. And interesting is that not all the give back goes to athletics.
Can you list out the difference in funding outlays between a "normal" school and a sports-obsessed Georgia school, and then list out the "give backs" that have made up this funding difference? Thanks, my non-friend.
 

Moogy

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What’s the downside? They read at a 4th grade level since academics isn’t a priority?
Hey now ... listen to our boy, Alpha ... he assures us that Billy Bob comes back to the school and establishes a Bully Boob Center for Kids Who Can't Read Good.
 

Metal Mike

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Reading about schools and athletic teams reminded me of an injustice when I was in school. I graduated high school in1966. Back then I lived at the edge of our township/school district. The adjunction school district was a Buro without special education. By agreement special ed kids were sent to our high school. I knew a kid from the Buro who a good athletic, very good basketball player. He had a learning disability and was in special ed but mainstreamed for some classes. He went out for our basketball team and made the team. Some school district objected because he did not live in our school district. The protest was upheld, and he was not allowed to be on our team. I always felt this deprived him of an opportunity for him to be in a area where he could show his ability.
 

Alphalion75

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Can you list out the difference in funding outlays between a "normal" school and a sports-obsessed Georgia school, and then list out the "give backs" that have made up this funding difference? Thanks, my non-friend.
I don't have specific numbers. But here is just one example of giving back to the community.

 

Alphalion75

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Hey now ... listen to our boy, Alpha ... he assures us that Billy Bob comes back to the school and establishes a Bully Boob Center for Kids Who Can't Read Good.
^^^^^^This made me laugh.
 

Bison13

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I think that TheBigUglies' post above (#10) is really very accurate.
Most of the private schools are not in a financial position to permit anybody to attend/play on a "scholarship". This does not consider the possibility of a sugar daddy paying the student/athlete's cost of enrollment.
I had 4 kids go to Catholic HS here in Pittsburgh starting g in the late 90s to 2009 and the bill for a year of this education was in the vicinity of 5k to 6.5k per year, per student. I think that bill today would be easily in excess of 10k per year.
If the word got out that Aurelious Maximus, star quarterback and point guard, was attending free of charge from the school's coffers, the other paying customers would raise holy heck and the system would suffer.
My views are from Pittsburgh. The cost numbers in Philly would be higher.

Interesting to note that 6 of the 12 high school football teams competing in the PIAA championships this weekend (Th,F,Sa) are Catholic schools.

In other sports AND in girls sports, that percentage will be higher.
Not all of those paying customers would protest a star athlete being given a free ride. As a matter of fact, some of those parents would gladly pitch in to get the star athlete to come to that school. Years ago when I was in Western Pennsylvania, I know that happened at a few of the privates.
 

pamdlion

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Was told by a St Joe’s Prep board member that they don’t give any money for football.

I just looked at him and said…”suuuuuuuure if you believe that”
 
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LB99

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Was told by a St Joe’s Prep board member that they don’t give any money for football.

I just looked at him and said…”suuuuuuuure if you believe that”
Yeah. BS. I guess those kids go there for football and the location and pay full tuition. Riiiiight.
 
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Relayer

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Tuition at SJP is $27,350. The doners are very generous down there on Girard Ave. That is something LaSalle can't even compete with.
 

Relayer

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?? LaSalle doesn’t have big donors?
Sure they have doners, but not at that level. LaSalle became relevant again because they brought back Brett Gordon to lead the program. In fact, LaSalle is most likely the second best team in the state. Also, this was supposed to be a down year for Prep, and they're marching to another state title.
 

Relayer

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To show how strong the 6-team PCL Red Division is, three schools are playing for state championships. Add in LaSalle as the second best team in the state, and the PIAA got what they asked for.

20-25 years ago there were many across the state who kept saying, "Wait until the PCL joins the PIAA, they are in for a rude awakening." How did that turn out?
 

LB99

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Sure they have doners, but not at that level. LaSalle became relevant again because they brought back Brett Gordon to lead the program. In fact, LaSalle is most likely the second best team in the state. Also, this was supposed to be a down year for Prep, and they're marching to another state title.
To be fair, LaSalle’s recruiting radius is much smaller than SJP.
 

LB99

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Sure they have doners, but not at that level. LaSalle became relevant again because they brought back Brett Gordon to lead the program. In fact, LaSalle is most likely the second best team in the state. Also, this was supposed to be a down year for Prep, and they're marching to another state title.
Also, to your point, if LaSalle is the second best team in the state at 6A then it is supporting the idea that the PIAA should lump all the privates together for postseason play. This is what most have been advocating for years for, but the PIAA has turned a deaf ear to the idea.
 
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EPC FAN

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I understand the concept. My question is why what has happened in Pa. hasn't occurred in Georgia. I'm not sure, but maybe it has to do with numbers. There are so many good athletes in Georgia that the private schools can't recruit all of them.
How many school districts are there in Georgia?
 

Relayer

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There were two great games today. Troy beat Central Clairton 26-25 in the 2A championship, and tonight in 5A, Bishop McDevitt beat Roman Catholic 34-31 in OT.
 
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Navion N8865H

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There were two great games today. Troy beat Central Clairton 26-25 in the 2A championship, and tonight in 5A, Bishop McDevitt beat Roman Catholic 34-31 in OT.
Troy, PA won AA yesterday. This is basically a once in a 30 year event. First, it was a true public group of kids. There was a group of about ten really good kids that came up through midget, Jr High then varsity. Troy was really bad about 5 years ago, but you could see this group coming. Also, they have like 26 total kids out for the team. Secondly, it is District IV, so no one can ever make it through Southern Columbia. Glad they did it yesterday for the Northern Tier, probably will never see it again.
 
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