So you want to be a ref?

Tom McAndrew

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how would you react in this situation?




The father that was ejected is Joe Gorga, who apparently is a "star" of the "Real Housewives of New Jersey" (I never heard of this "star," and have never watched the show.) Per a TMZ article, "A rep for Joe later told the outlet that he felt the referee made some bad and unfair calls during the match and also thought Gino’s opponent was mistreating him."

FWIW, we're around 1 month into the HS/MS/Youth season, and so far I've thrown 1 parent and 2 coaches out of duals or tournaments. smh
 

Piketownman

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Oct 8, 2021
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how would you react in this situation?




The father that was ejected is Joe Gorga, who apparently is a "star" of the "Real Housewives of New Jersey" (I never heard of this "star," and have never watched the show.) Per a TMZ article, "A rep for Joe later told the outlet that he felt the referee made some bad and unfair calls during the match and also thought Gino’s opponent was mistreating him."

FWIW, we're around 1 month into the HS/MS/Youth season, and so far I've thrown 1 parent and 2 coaches out of duals or tournaments. smh

No I wouldn’t. Thankless job. Never heard of this guy or watch those stupid shows. Maybe he thought they need a ratings boost. Has to be embarrassing for the son.
 
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Tom McAndrew

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No I wouldn’t. Thankless job. Never heard of this guy or watch those stupid shows. Maybe he thought they need a ratings boost. Has to be embarrassing for the son.

lol, thankless, for sure.

I'm curious how this individual will be handled. I believe this was a HS match in New Jersey. Most schools in my region have gotten to the point that they will not tolerate this type of behavior from parents. Any parent that does something like this at a high school in my region would almost certainly be banned from attending home events at that school for the season, or for the school year. I've talked with ADs about this several times, but I don't think I've ever asked if the ban extends to away matches/games/meets/etc.
 
Dec 23, 2021
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I retired 13 seasons ago. overall, I miss it but not this part of it. worst situation I ever dealt with was my rookie season. worked AAU tourney. Finals match for 10 year olds I made classic mistake of young ref (never made mistake again) turning my back on the kids. 1 kid punched the other during a stoppage. Fortunately another ref saw what happened. I DQ’d the puncher for FMC which means it’s as if the kid never wrestled in the tournament. End of season. Father, about 6’4” and probably 250 who is slapped together comes out on the mat. wasnt pretty.
just need to remember it’s only about .01% of people who are total whack jobs at any given moment and do something like this. Maybe the ”star” had a bad day on the set. maybe he is like this routinely. Doesn’t excuse the behavior And it’s unacceptable. Glad to see him escorted out.
 
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Tom McAndrew

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I retired 13 seasons ago. overall, I miss it but not this part of it. worst situation I ever dealt with was my rookie season. worked AAU tourney. Finals match for 10 year olds I made classic mistake of young ref (never made mistake again) turning my back on the kids. 1 kid punched the other during a stoppage. Fortunately another ref saw what happened. I DQ’d the puncher for FMC which means it’s as if the kid never wrestled in the tournament. End of season. Father, about 6’4” and probably 250 who is slapped together comes out on the mat. wasnt pretty.
just need to remember it’s only about .01% of people who are total whack jobs at any given moment and do something like this. Maybe the ”star” had a bad day on the set. maybe he is like this routinely. Doesn’t excuse the behavior And it’s unacceptable. Glad to see him escorted out.

Yeah, pretty much every wrestling ref made that mistake early in their career, and most learned to not do it again.

You're correct about how rare this type of thing is, but if you ref enough, you'll experience it.

There have been a few times where I have reacted similarly to how the ref in this instance did -- loudly telling the individual to get out, and being relatively close to him. Tournaments are somewhat of a wildcard, with mats being everywhere, and tournament individuals (people that are running the tournament, but not refs) can be quite far from the mat you're on. At high schools, at least around my area, they really want the ref to not be that confrontational, and let the administrators/site manager deal with the individual. (If a ref throws out a spectator, they have to leave the premises before wrestling continues.) In watching the video, I can sympathize with how the ref responded, as I've done it several times, but I can also see the advantage of stepping back and letting the administrators deal with the situation.
 
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SRATH

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I ref'd a kiddie swim meet once. I was a coach of the 11&12 year olds so each of the schools picked someone to ref age groups they didn't cover. This isn't high flying swimming......2-3 nights a week practice with meets on Saturday. I was so f'in mad at the end.

I ran flags for my kids soccer team once......maybe 11 year olds. The worse folks were some of the parents from my home team. I poked one with the flag right in the chest and asked if he wanted the job. His grandkid was a star on the team. The kid played on club teams, never for the high school team.

Thankless jobs.......so thanks to Tom and others who put themselves out there for the kids
 

lionlover

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Oct 6, 2021
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The father that was ejected is Joe Gorga, who apparently is a "star" of the "Real Housewives of New Jersey" (I never heard of this "star," and have never watched the show.) Per a TMZ article, "A rep for Joe later told the outlet that he felt the referee made some bad and unfair calls during the match and also thought Gino’s opponent was mistreating him."

FWIW, we're around 1 month into the HS/MS/Youth season, and so far I've thrown 1 parent and 2 coaches out of duals or tournaments. smh
Sarcastic Uh Huh GIF by GIPHY Studios 2021
 
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lionlover

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Oct 6, 2021
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how would you react in this situation?




The father that was ejected is Joe Gorga, who apparently is a "star" of the "Real Housewives of New Jersey" (I never heard of this "star," and have never watched the show.) Per a TMZ article, "A rep for Joe later told the outlet that he felt the referee made some bad and unfair calls during the match and also thought Gino’s opponent was mistreating him."

FWIW, we're around 1 month into the HS/MS/Youth season, and so far I've thrown 1 parent and 2 coaches out of duals or tournaments. smh

 

SW Fla Lion

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Oct 20, 2021
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While attending college under the GI bill a fellow vet managed the umpires for the county for all slow pitch softball. I said I would give it a try to supplement my beer money. My first game I was assigned to go to a church softball league with another rookie ump. One team in the league was comprised of male trustee inmates at a women's prison. Halfway through the game I called out at the plate a trustee that was about 6'6". It was a close call. It was a call that cleared both benches - the trustees' team mad at the call and the other team heading to their cars scared. Somehow $6 a game wasn't worth the aggravation.
 
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Tom McAndrew

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Who was disqualified. It cut off so fast I couldn’t tell what happened

The title on the video is "Wrestler Gets Disqualified After Kicking Kid In The Head."

As you mentioned, the video ends before it's clear what actions are taken.

In these type of videos, I generally watch the ref to see what they signal. Alas, there really isn't much there in the video.

My take on the action:

- the ref should have stopped the action earlier for PD
- the offensive wrestler did have his feet/legs around the defensive wrestler's head, and the ref checked them, but did not stop action as there was nothing illegal the offensive wrestler did with his feet/legs
- before action was stopped, the defensive wrestler was in distress from pain (as opposed to being frustrated that he was on his back)
- due to his distress, the defensive wrestler started kicking his right foot, and it did connect with the offensive wrestler's head
- wrestling was stopped by the ref, but he makes no signal to indicate why. It could have been stopped due to the defensive wrestler being in injury distress, and the ref would not signal that before stoppage. It could have been stopped due to a pin, which it's tough via the camera angle to tell if it was accomplished, but it was certainly close, but the ref did not give a pin signal. It could have been stopped due to disqualification of the defensive wrestler, but that is usually signaled either while blowing the whistle to stop or immediately afterwards. I think we can eliminate stoppage for a pin, as the ref didn't slap the mat. I would hope that it was stopped for injury to the defensive wrestler, as you can see after the stoppage the shoulder pain the defensive wrestler was experiencing, but it's possible that it was stopped for disqualification. I've not seen a longer version of that video that clarifies what was the call by the ref.
 

razpsu

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The title on the video is "Wrestler Gets Disqualified After Kicking Kid In The Head."

As you mentioned, the video ends before it's clear what actions are taken.

In these type of videos, I generally watch the ref to see what they signal. Alas, there really isn't much there in the video.

My take on the action:

- the ref should have stopped the action earlier for PD
- the offensive wrestler did have his feet/legs around the defensive wrestler's head, and the ref checked them, but did not stop action as there was nothing illegal the offensive wrestler did with his feet/legs
- before action was stopped, the defensive wrestler was in distress from pain (as opposed to being frustrated that he was on his back)
- due to his distress, the defensive wrestler started kicking his right foot, and it did connect with the offensive wrestler's head
- wrestling was stopped by the ref, but he makes no signal to indicate why. It could have been stopped due to the defensive wrestler being in injury distress, and the ref would not signal that before stoppage. It could have been stopped due to a pin, which it's tough via the camera angle to tell if it was accomplished, but it was certainly close, but the ref did not give a pin signal. It could have been stopped due to disqualification of the defensive wrestler, but that is usually signaled either while blowing the whistle to stop or immediately afterwards. I think we can eliminate stoppage for a pin, as the ref didn't slap the mat. I would hope that it was stopped for injury to the defensive wrestler, as you can see after the stoppage the shoulder pain the defensive wrestler was experiencing, but it's possible that it was stopped for disqualification. I've not seen a longer version of that video that clarifies what was the call by the ref.
Well said. I didn’t even think the defensive wrestler was the one who was disqualified. I was thinking it would have been stopped earlier because the guy on bottom couldn’t breathe. I hope his friends never put that part in a meme or something. I have never seen someone get caught in a position like that. lol.
 

Tom McAndrew

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Another genius. If he did that to me when I was reffing, I wouldn't give him the opportunity to walk out of the arena. The police would immediately be called. And in PA, if you do this to a ref, there is no discretion allowed to the police or the DA. It is mandatory that if they are contacted about a individual assaulting a sports official, that they have to charge the person that commits the assault.

 
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manatree

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Oct 6, 2021
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Another genius. If he did that to me when I was reffing, I wouldn't give him the opportunity to walk out of the arena. The police would immediately be called. And in PA, if you do this to a ref, there is no discretion allowed to the police or the DA. It is mandatory that if they are contacted about a individual assaulting a sports official, that they have to charge the person that commits the assault.


C’mon Tom, the ref had the audacity to explain to his son why he was called for potentially dangerous. The nerve of that ref for trying to teach the wrestler. 🙄
 
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Tom McAndrew

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So here's something that occurred this evening, in an Easton - Nazareth match.

The last weight wrestled was 215. Easton's wrestler TFed Nazareth's wrestler (19-4, @ 4:45). That makes the team score 28-27, Easton. However, the Easton wrestler threw his headgear after the match ended, which resulted in the ref hitting him for unsportsmanlike, which is a 1-point reduction in the team score. That makes the score 27-27, but ties are always broken by criteria. (There's a chart in the rule book. You start with the top one, and if that doesn't break the tie you go to the next one, etc.) I don't know how many levels they had to go to, but in the end, Nazareth wins on criteria, 28-27.

This sequence has exploded tonight on social media. And in reviewing the video (see Mitch Rupert's tweet below), it was an easy call -- a no brainier. 99.999% of the refs I know would have made the same call.




Of course, our main recruiter, who is also a proud Easton alum, also commented on the event:

 

Karl_Havok

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Oct 6, 2021
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So here's something that occurred this evening, in an Easton - Nazareth match.

The last weight wrestled was 215. Easton's wrestler TFed Nazareth's wrestler (19-4, @ 4:45). That makes the team score 28-27, Easton. However, the Easton wrestler threw his headgear after the match ended, which resulted in the ref hitting him for unsportsmanlike, which is a 1-point reduction in the team score. That makes the score 27-27, but ties are always broken by criteria. (There's a chart in the rule book. You start with the top one, and if that doesn't break the tie you go to the next one, etc.) I don't know how many levels they had to go to, but in the end, Nazareth wins on criteria, 28-27.

This sequence has exploded tonight on social media. And in reviewing the video (see Mitch Rupert's tweet below), it was an easy call -- a no brainier. 99.999% of the refs I know would have made the same call.




Of course, our main recruiter, who is also a proud Easton alum, also commented on the event:



So instead of judging whether the call was a valid call Willie questions his integrity?
 

Mstan85

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Seriously, 99.999%? Only one in 100,000 would not make the call? I doubt that 99 out of 100 would make that call (granted still a very high number). Looked more like a toss to me. I only know two refs, I'll be sure to ask them.
 
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Tom McAndrew

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It's an interesting article. And I give Brad Wilson kudos for expressing his thoughts. But I don't think he's all that qualified to evaluate the interpretation of, and application of, the wrestling rules.

He starts off with: It’s a shame that Wednesday’s thrilling Easton-Nazareth wrestling match will forever be remembered as “the headgear throw match.”

That's a nice sentiment, but pretty much every sporting contest, no matter how good it is, where this a controversial play, controversial call, or controversial non-call at the end are remembered for that, and not for the quality of the competition. It's the nature of sports, and the nature of fans.

To his 5 points:
1. If the rule was incorrectly applied then Easton should be awarded the win if such a result is possible under the rules. The result could have enormous implications for postseason seeding for the district team tournament. If it is determined that Getz erred, but the result cannot be overturned, then the district seeding committee needs to take that into consideration.

- speaking as a ref, the rule was not incorrectly applied. I've made the same call many times. A team can always appeal the outcome of a match, based upon what they believe to be an incorrect application of the rule, to the District level in PIAA sports. And in 99.9999999% of the times, the decision of the official stands. Easton can appeal, but I'm pretty confident that will go nowhere (with the caveat that I've never dealt with District 11, but from what I've been told by state officials, as well as those involved at the District level in other Districts, it runs pretty much the same way across the Commonwealth).

2. one more team point for Easton, say, if Crossman had pinned – but it wasn’t just Crossman; Karam noted the Rovers left a lot of points on the mat – and the deduction was irrelevant. Moral: Technical falls aren’t as good as the real thing.

- that's always the case in wrestling, and in sports.

3. not every call needs to be made. There are good no-calls. Perhaps this situation was a chance for one.

- not all calls are made by refs, depending on the circumstances. For example, if the same incident took place in a middle school match, where one team was getting blown out, you might use it as a teaching moment, and instead of hitting the kid with unsportsmanlike, and costing his team a point, you just have a polite lecture with him, (and also his coach), to explain how that is a violation of the rules, and would cost the wrestler's team a point in high school. (And the flip side of this is some coaches, and some refs, feel the wrestler would learn best if you did call unsportsmanlike on the kid, so even when using discretion you don't satisfy everybody.). By JV matches, no matter the score, a ref is making the call. In varsity, you're absolutely making that call

4. in very close matches, perhaps coaches should offer extra reminders to their team to avoid any violation that could even remotely be close to unsportsmanlike conduct and a deduction. Phillipsburg did that in last year’s criteria win over Easton. If Crossman keeps his headgear on, or carries it back to the bench, then he never gives Getz a chance to misinterpret an innocent gesture.

-- LOL, refs don't interpret gestures. They have no way of knowing what is in the wrestler's mind. They enforce the rules that are in the book -- whether the fans/coaches/wrestlers like the rule or not. To his broader point, yes, well coached teams do constantly remind their wrestlers of appropriate and inappropriate behavior, to avoid incidents like this. As an aside, it's been my observation over years of reffing that it is more often the winning wrestler that will throw their headgear for whatever reason. If you watch the video, you'll note that the wrestler from Nazareth, who had just gotten TFed and as such thought he had lost the dual for his team, and thus you might think he would be pissed off, is holding his headgear in his hands. Bo Nickal (who knows the rules forward and backward) cost PSU a team point at NCAAs (I think it was after he pinned Myles Martin; not certain), when he threw his headgear after the conclusion of the match.

5. no referee should ever referee a match involving his alma mater, or a school that (otherwise) employs him. This is not a hard rule to follow. District 11 wrestling assignor Larry Deiter should immediately begin implementing it.

- well, I think I understand the sentiment, but I doubt it was any bit of an issue during the match. I've reffed matches involving my high school. I've reffed matches involving the district in which my wife worked. I've reffed matches involving the school where my kids went to high school. I've reffed matches involving the school my wife went to high school. Etc. Two key points here: 1) the 1st time you ref a team you have some connection to it might be mildly interesting, but after the contest starts, you're rarely even aware of who the teams/schools are. You're just doing what you've been trained to do, and 2) there are not enough refs, and even fewer good refs, so assignors don't have the luxury of excluding refs from certain schools. Most assignors that I know will not assign a ref to a school in a district where they are employed. Beyond that, there are rarely limitations. With the PIAA, when you get to the postseason, it is left to the ref to decide if there are any schools they should not be assigned to due to work, graduated from, etc. That's the case until the State Championships. At that level, for most sports (not all), a ref can not work a contest that involves a team from the district in which they live/are registered to, unless both contestants are from that district. (And the PIAA does this to avoid complaints about the bias of refs, even though they admit that nobody that is reffing championships has shown any evidence of bias.)


I give Wilson credit for looking at the case book. Most people (fans, coaches, wrestlers, and journalists) don't even know the rules, let alone the guidance that is offered in the case book. That said, he doesn't have the experience of reffing, or the training, to understand the guidance that is being offered.

I've had wrestlers slam their head gear to the mat after winning a match, and other wrestlers slam their headgear to the mat after losing a match. In every instance in high school wrestling, I hit them with unsportsmanlike. I've never understood the immediate need to remove headgear at the end of a match, but many wrestlers (certainly not all) do it.

What can a wrestler do with their headgear after a match that wouldn't be called unsportsmanlike?
- drop it to the mat
- hold it in their hand
- if the match ends with them on the edge, by their team, and they flip their headgear underhanded to their coach or teammate, that's fine (do the same thing from the other side of the mat, and you'll get called for unsportsmanlike)
- flip it out of your hand, but have it only land within a foot or so of you

In essence, if you throw your headgear, you're going to be called for unsportsmanlike. Wilson (the journalist) had this to say about the winning Easton wrestler: "This reporter was sitting 15 feet away and saw nothing with the fast, high-speed action that indicates anger or an improper attitude. There was certainly nothing said." Unfortunately, that's not the criteria a ref uses for making the call. It's the action, and not what is behind it, that is called.
 

SleepyLion

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Sep 1, 2022
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It's an interesting article. And I give Brad Wilson kudos for expressing his thoughts. But I don't think he's all that qualified to evaluate the interpretation of, and application of, the wrestling rules.

He starts off with: It’s a shame that Wednesday’s thrilling Easton-Nazareth wrestling match will forever be remembered as “the headgear throw match.”

That's a nice sentiment, but pretty much every sporting contest, no matter how good it is, where this a controversial play, controversial call, or controversial non-call at the end are remembered for that, and not for the quality of the competition. It's the nature of sports, and the nature of fans.

To his 5 points:
1. If the rule was incorrectly applied then Easton should be awarded the win if such a result is possible under the rules. The result could have enormous implications for postseason seeding for the district team tournament. If it is determined that Getz erred, but the result cannot be overturned, then the district seeding committee needs to take that into consideration.

- speaking as a ref, the rule was not incorrectly applied. I've made the same call many times. A team can always appeal the outcome of a match, based upon what they believe to be an incorrect application of the rule, to the District level in PIAA sports. And in 99.9999999% of the times, the decision of the official stands. Easton can appeal, but I'm pretty confident that will go nowhere (with the caveat that I've never dealt with District 11, but from what I've been told by state officials, as well as those involved at the District level in other Districts, it runs pretty much the same way across the Commonwealth).

2. one more team point for Easton, say, if Crossman had pinned – but it wasn’t just Crossman; Karam noted the Rovers left a lot of points on the mat – and the deduction was irrelevant. Moral: Technical falls aren’t as good as the real thing.

- that's always the case in wrestling, and in sports.

3. not every call needs to be made. There are good no-calls. Perhaps this situation was a chance for one.

- not all calls are made by refs, depending on the circumstances. For example, if the same incident took place in a middle school match, where one team was getting blown out, you might use it as a teaching moment, and instead of hitting the kid with unsportsmanlike, and costing his team a point, you just have a polite lecture with him, (and also his coach), to explain how that is a violation of the rules, and would cost the wrestler's team a point in high school. (And the flip side of this is some coaches, and some refs, feel the wrestler would learn best if you did call unsportsmanlike on the kid, so even when using discretion you don't satisfy everybody.). By JV matches, no matter the score, a ref is making the call. In varsity, you're absolutely making that call

4. in very close matches, perhaps coaches should offer extra reminders to their team to avoid any violation that could even remotely be close to unsportsmanlike conduct and a deduction. Phillipsburg did that in last year’s criteria win over Easton. If Crossman keeps his headgear on, or carries it back to the bench, then he never gives Getz a chance to misinterpret an innocent gesture.

-- LOL, refs don't interpret gestures. They have no way of knowing what is in the wrestler's mind. They enforce the rules that are in the book -- whether the fans/coaches/wrestlers like the rule or not. To his broader point, yes, well coached teams do constantly remind their wrestlers of appropriate and inappropriate behavior, to avoid incidents like this. As an aside, it's been my observation over years of reffing that it is more often the winning wrestler that will throw their headgear for whatever reason. If you watch the video, you'll note that the wrestler from Nazareth, who had just gotten TFed and as such thought he had lost the dual for his team, and thus you might think he would be pissed off, is holding his headgear in his hands. Bo Nickal (who knows the rules forward and backward) cost PSU a team point at NCAAs (I think it was after he pinned Myles Martin; not certain), when he threw his headgear after the conclusion of the match.

5. no referee should ever referee a match involving his alma mater, or a school that (otherwise) employs him. This is not a hard rule to follow. District 11 wrestling assignor Larry Deiter should immediately begin implementing it.

- well, I think I understand the sentiment, but I doubt it was any bit of an issue during the match. I've reffed matches involving my high school. I've reffed matches involving the district in which my wife worked. I've reffed matches involving the school where my kids went to high school. I've reffed matches involving the school my wife went to high school. Etc. Two key points here: 1) the 1st time you ref a team you have some connection to it might be mildly interesting, but after the contest starts, you're rarely even aware of who the teams/schools are. You're just doing what you've been trained to do, and 2) there are not enough refs, and even fewer good refs, so assignors don't have the luxury of excluding refs from certain schools. Most assignors that I know will not assign a ref to a school in a district where they are employed. Beyond that, there are rarely limitations. With the PIAA, when you get to the postseason, it is left to the ref to decide if there are any schools they should not be assigned to due to work, graduated from, etc. That's the case until the State Championships. At that level, for most sports (not all), a ref can not work a contest that involves a team from the district in which they live/are registered to, unless both contestants are from that district. (And the PIAA does this to avoid complaints about the bias of refs, even though they admit that nobody that is reffing championships has shown any evidence of bias.)


I give Wilson credit for looking at the case book. Most people (fans, coaches, wrestlers, and journalists) don't even know the rules, let alone the guidance that is offered in the case book. That said, he doesn't have the experience of reffing, or the training, to understand the guidance that is being offered.

I've had wrestlers slam their head gear to the mat after winning a match, and other wrestlers slam their headgear to the mat after losing a match. In every instance in high school wrestling, I hit them with unsportsmanlike. I've never understood the immediate need to remove headgear at the end of a match, but many wrestlers (certainly not all) do it.

What can a wrestler do with their headgear after a match that wouldn't be called unsportsmanlike?
- drop it to the mat
- hold it in their hand
- if the match ends with them on the edge, by their team, and they flip their headgear underhanded to their coach or teammate, that's fine (do the same thing from the other side of the mat, and you'll get called for unsportsmanlike)
- flip it out of your hand, but have it only land within a foot or so of you

In essence, if you throw your headgear, you're going to be called for unsportsmanlike. Wilson (the journalist) had this to say about the winning Easton wrestler: "This reporter was sitting 15 feet away and saw nothing with the fast, high-speed action that indicates anger or an improper attitude. There was certainly nothing said." Unfortunately, that's not the criteria a ref uses for making the call. It's the action, and not what is behind it, that is called.
Nice write up.
It was the Miles Martin match that Bo was penalized after his NCAA championship in 2018.

Also, I found some more video of this
 
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