The only thing that surprises me about our offense

[saddawg]

is that people are surprised it sucks again. If we had any hope on offense I think we could have a decent year.

I say again, the WCO has never worked consistently in college football. Our running game would be fine if not for the passing game being so damn bad. Some people say it's because we have bad WRs. Some say QB is the problem. Some say, which is a big part of it, the OL is the culprit.

However the main problem is running an offense that is hard to run with 20 hrs a week practice time. It's to complicated.
It's hard to recruit to. By that I mean not many kids in Mississippi are a good fit in the WCO, esp. QB's and OL.
It's predictable and defenses don't fear it. They can play a bend ,don't break ,style against it because they don't worry about the homerun play. We usually end up stopping ourselves.

QBs completing 50% or less, for 10 yds a COMPLETION, not attempt, is horrible. Look at OM and USM QB stats from their scrimmages yesterday. Higher comp % and more yds per completion = more points.

Look at Wilder's stats. An all world Track guy with 2 catches for 11 yds. Translation, he ran two, 5 yd hitch routes. That is really utilizing a weapon right there.

It ain't rocket science people.

And I agree with the folks wondering if Woody is the main problem. Yeah, he ain't no Leach, but he is just driving the boat. Croom is navigating. Everybody knows Croom's personality. Hard headed. He's determined to make it work, no matter what.

Croom has been consistant in 2 things

1) Bad offense
2) Inflexibility

Did any of ya'll REALLY believe he was gonna change his offense very much in the off season?

 

[saddawg]

is that people are surprised it sucks again. If we had any hope on offense I think we could have a decent year.

I say again, the WCO has never worked consistently in college football. Our running game would be fine if not for the passing game being so damn bad. Some people say it's because we have bad WRs. Some say QB is the problem. Some say, which is a big part of it, the OL is the culprit.

However the main problem is running an offense that is hard to run with 20 hrs a week practice time. It's to complicated.
It's hard to recruit to. By that I mean not many kids in Mississippi are a good fit in the WCO, esp. QB's and OL.
It's predictable and defenses don't fear it. They can play a bend ,don't break ,style against it because they don't worry about the homerun play. We usually end up stopping ourselves.

QBs completing 50% or less, for 10 yds a COMPLETION, not attempt, is horrible. Look at OM and USM QB stats from their scrimmages yesterday. Higher comp % and more yds per completion = more points.

Look at Wilder's stats. An all world Track guy with 2 catches for 11 yds. Translation, he ran two, 5 yd hitch routes. That is really utilizing a weapon right there.

It ain't rocket science people.

And I agree with the folks wondering if Woody is the main problem. Yeah, he ain't no Leach, but he is just driving the boat. Croom is navigating. Everybody knows Croom's personality. Hard headed. He's determined to make it work, no matter what.

Croom has been consistant in 2 things

1) Bad offense
2) Inflexibility

Did any of ya'll REALLY believe he was gonna change his offense very much in the off season?

 

[saddawg]

is that people are surprised it sucks again. If we had any hope on offense I think we could have a decent year.

I say again, the WCO has never worked consistently in college football. Our running game would be fine if not for the passing game being so damn bad. Some people say it's because we have bad WRs. Some say QB is the problem. Some say, which is a big part of it, the OL is the culprit.

However the main problem is running an offense that is hard to run with 20 hrs a week practice time. It's to complicated.
It's hard to recruit to. By that I mean not many kids in Mississippi are a good fit in the WCO, esp. QB's and OL.
It's predictable and defenses don't fear it. They can play a bend ,don't break ,style against it because they don't worry about the homerun play. We usually end up stopping ourselves.

QBs completing 50% or less, for 10 yds a COMPLETION, not attempt, is horrible. Look at OM and USM QB stats from their scrimmages yesterday. Higher comp % and more yds per completion = more points.

Look at Wilder's stats. An all world Track guy with 2 catches for 11 yds. Translation, he ran two, 5 yd hitch routes. That is really utilizing a weapon right there.

It ain't rocket science people.

And I agree with the folks wondering if Woody is the main problem. Yeah, he ain't no Leach, but he is just driving the boat. Croom is navigating. Everybody knows Croom's personality. Hard headed. He's determined to make it work, no matter what.

Croom has been consistant in 2 things

1) Bad offense
2) Inflexibility

Did any of ya'll REALLY believe he was gonna change his offense very much in the off season?

 

[RebelBruiser]

Honestly, I think Croom is somewhat flexible based on his change to his recruiting style after figuring out that his ideas on recruiting were not going to work. I think he's just incapable of changing his offense too much. He doesn't seem to me like the most creative offensive mind. He knows that one system, and that's all he knows. I think the only way you'll see him change his offensive system significantly is if he decides to give up on the WCO and go out and hire an OC that knows another system. Of course that would require him basically stepping aside and not having much of a hand in the offense.

Basically, I think he is trying to make changes to his offense. However, I don't think he's capable of making the kinds of changes (a completely new system) you need.

And I do agree that the WCO forces your players to do way too much mentally for it to be able to have a lot of success at the college level due to limited practice time. I do think you could have a successful offense every so often if you have a bunch of guys starting who have been in the system together for 3-4 years. The only problem is that you won't see that very often in college.

 

[Todd4State]

I say again, the WCO has never worked consistently in college football.

</p>

The PAC-10, including USC and Stanford, San Diego State, Auburn whatever year they went 13-0, BYU...yep. It's never worked before in college.

 

[saddawg]

believe it but I'm gonna agree with you on one thing. The mental part.

The best head coach I ever had had a saying, " If you are thinking, you ain't playing."

 

[saddawg]

Did you notice the word <span style="font-weight: bold;">consistently?

</span>Next argument.
<span style="font-weight: bold;"><span style="font-weight: bold;">
</span>
</span>

 

[HD6]

San Diego State since 1998. BYU hasn't run the WCO since Lavell Edwards retired. As far as USC and that Auburn team goes, when you have a team that has 3-4 first round picks on it, you can pretty much run whatever offense you want and be successful.

 

[Todd4State]

that all of those teams have run the WCO through the years and have had success? I'd say that's pretty consistent.

 

[Todd4State]

ran the WCO at Stanford in the 70's with a less than loaded team and consistently won 8 games with it. Sid Gillman ran the WCO at San Diego State in the 50's. Norm Chow has run it successfully at BYU, NC State- for one year mind you, USC, and now will likely be successful at UCLA running it. Auburn was loaded, but they ran it with success, in the SEC no less, with a QB from Mississippi and went 13-0 in their first year despite the complexity of it.

 

[Coach34]

And how has that worked for them since those 1st rounders graduated? Oh, thats right- they finished 100+ on offense as well and fired the OC. It is no coincidence the only two teams in the SEC over 100 in offense were the WCO teams.

 

[HD6]

San Diego State has only been playing football since 1969.

http://www.jhowell.net/cf/scores/SanDiegoState.htm

But regardless of that, we can't use what was going on prior to present day as an indicator. The NCAA didn't legislate practice time and academics the same way. Teams had hundreds of guys on scholarships, and practiced all day every day.

That QB from Mississippi was a first round draft choice. Am I supposed to believe that being from Mississippi hurts your ability to be a quarterback in the NFL? And Coach is exactly right, that same offense without the NFL players has struggled every year since.

 

[saddawg]

I gave you a football 101 last week in a post, so here is another one.

The WCO is not an offense like the wishbone, wing T, or the split backs veer. It's more like the spread in that there are many variations. The difference in what BYU did and what USC is doing, and Croom's WCO is the vertical passing game.
BYU also was putting the ball in the air 80% of the time.

USC uses the 4 vertical as their main passing play. WRs run the vert and read the DBs If they bail, they cut off the route. If they try to press or run with them they stay on route. Not real complicated. It also helps they have All Americans at the OL , WR and QB slots. Source? Pete Carroll, AFCA convention speech.

I'll bet if you quizzed 90% of the people on here they would say Texas Tech and South Carolina run complicated offenses. Not true. The beauty of them are their simplicity. Go read articles about Leach and ones he has written. He stresses keeping it simple. He calls it organized back yard football.

As for as Auburn, seems to me ole Fat Al was kicked to the curb in favor of a Spread guy.

My main point is that Croom is making harder than it has to be.

 

[HD6]

Sid Gillman never coached at San Diego State. He did coach the San Diego Chargers professionally.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sid_Gillman

 

[jackstefano]

*

 

[MaxwellSmart]

And I agree with the folks wondering if Woody is the main problem. Yeah, he ain't no Leach, but he is just driving the boat. Croom is navigating. Everybody knows Croom's personality. Hard headed. He's determined to make it work, no matter what.

Did any of ya'll REALLY believe he was gonna change his offense very much in the off season?

I've been saying all along, it doesn't matter who the OC is, Woody is just a pawn. Croom is hell bent on running it his way.
</p>

 

[RebelRichman.nafoom]

[No message]

 

[HD6]

not sure where Jim went wrong. Further, by looking at the SDSU website, I have been able to determine that Todd is trying to talk about Don Coryell, not Sid Gillman.

 

[Todd4State]

<a></a>


That QB from Mississippi was a first round draft choice. Am I supposed to believe that being from Mississippi hurts your ability to be a quarterback in the
NFL? .

</p>

Supposedly this offense that doesn't work in Mississippi because our players aren't intelligent enough to run it, yet here's a guy from Mississippi that learned it in one year.

Not sure where you got the being from Mississippi hurts your abilty to play QB in the NFL- obviously not true, Archie, Favre, McNair, Campbell.

 

[Todd4State]

I gave you a football 101 last week in a post, so here is another one.

You mean the brilliant one where you told me that there were 11 people on the field? The one where you assume that the QB is a factor running the ball only in the spread? The one where you said that "you're assuming that you're going put seven in the box, but not we're going to take a safety out of the box"?


My main point is that Croom is making harder than it has to be.

</p>

No, your point was that the WCO doesn't work "consistently" in college football, and yet for some reason people still run variations of it, and despite the fact that it has worked for some teams, and very well for several of them.

 

[saddawg]

When I corrected you when you said even if we ran the spread teams would still put 8 or 9 in the box.

Going back to my USC post, this is why people annoy me. I don't know what you do for a living or what you are good at.

Whatever it is,I'm sure you know a lot more about than me.

However, you and people like you, claim to know as much about football as Coach34. I know everybody loves to give him a hard time, but he has called plays, been a head coach and run practices. If I put you in charge of a 9th grade team today and said, here it's all yours, you have no idea how lost your *** would be.

I'm a pretty worthless individual, but two thing I am reasonably confident I do know is fishing and football. It pisses me off when people argue with me about either when they are not knowledgeable on either.

That's why I like talking and arguing with Coach34, he knows football.

 

[Todd4State]

Where and when have I EVER claimed to say that I knew as much or more about football than Coach34? Hell, when have I claimed to know as much about football as anyone?

Why is that even in this discussion to start with, and why does it matter?

Isn't this supposed to be a free discussion board regardless of your knowledge? Isn't this what sports fans do?

What you just typed was possibly the most arrogant thing I have ever seen anyone type to anyone. "Don't talk to me beause of my superior knowledge in football" (paraphrase). WTF? Seriously. By the way, you obviously haven't coached either because you have to hide behind your buddies coaching experience. Maybe you should make an online football quiz so that everyone on here knows who is and isn't worthy to reply to you.

And yes, I know that if we ran the spread and had four WR's that they would put seven in the box. My point was that they would load the box, and that IS exactly what would happen if we couldn't pass the ball. And I didn't learn that from you.

 

[saddawg]

If we ran the spread and other teams put 7 in the box and we couldn't throw, we ought to fire everybody including the managers.

And yes, I do more about football than you. Not arrogance, just a fact.. As far as my "buddy" I've never met Coach34 in my life.

And yes, I HAVE coached before. And of the 5 people I like in the world, one coaches football now and another just got out of it this year. About all we do is talk football. I'll put my football knowledge up against anyone. Again, not arrogance, just a fact.

Yet you spout off about BYU and USC running the WCO. What they run and ran is nowhere close to what Croom is doing. Croom can call it what he wants but the Green Bay, Philidelpia Eagles style of the WCO does not and will not work in college consistently. You don't have time to practice it and it is to complicated and predictable. By predictable I don't mean knowing a run or pass is coming, but predictable by being limited to plays you can run out of certain formations.

It's funny to me that 2 of Croom's best offensive showings were when he used more spread principles. And we finally moved the ball in the Liberty Bowl by using spread stuff. CF started having to guess a little on defense.

You are right. It's a free discussion board. But it also warns you to be ready to be called out.

Bottom line, you know enough football to be dangerous. But you don't know enough to explain anything about it to me.

I'll be glad to get out the grease board and have a little chalk talk and break down film with you any day.

 

[HD6]

your point was the West Coast offense has been used succesfully in college football by teams recently. I showed that was true only in examples of teams loaded with NFL talent. That makes your point wrong.

 

[HD6]

between running a variation, or incorporating aspects of the WCO into what you do, and attempting to use the exact same playbook a NFL team does. The latter is the Croom way.

 

[Todd4State]

If we ran the spread and other teams put 7 in the box and we couldn't throw, we ought to fire everybody including the managers.

<

True. But we are M-State

And yes, I do more about football than you. Not arrogance, just a fact.. As far as my "buddy" I've never met Coach34 in my life.

Ironic. I'm better than you, it's a fact, not arrogant.

And yes, I HAVE coached before. And of the 5 people I like in the world, one coaches football now and another just got out of it this year. About all we do
is talk football. I'll put my football knowledge up against anyone. Again, not arrogance, just a fact.

OK, so you've coached before. Again big deal. That's like Ron Polk saying that we boo him because we have hate our lives. Football isn't exactly quantum physics. Hell, Jerrell Powe (Sorry). I find it funny how you "coaches" think that the game is so damn complicated. I guess you have to coach to have an opinion.

Yet you spout off about BYU and USC running the WCO. What they run and ran is nowhere close to what Croom is doing. Croom can call it what he wants but the
Green Bay, Philidelpia Eagles style of the WCO does not and will not work in college consistently. You don't have time to practice it and it is to
complicated and predictable. By predictable I don't mean knowing a run or pass is coming, but predictable by being limited to plays you can run out of
certain formations.

Agree. But I was calling you out about a generalized statement.

It's funny to me that 2 of Croom's best offensive showings were when he used more spread principles. And we finally moved the ball in the Liberty Bowl
by using spread stuff. CF started having to guess a little on defense.

You are right. It's a free discussion board. But it also warns you to be ready to be called out.

At least I don't ***** and say I know more about something than people, and not to talk to me when people call me out.

Bottom line, you know enough football to be dangerous. But you don't know enough to explain anything about it to me.

I'll be glad to get out the grease board and have a little chalk talk and break down film with you any day.

Sounds like fun, you might be surprised what I know. As long as your ego stays on the boat.

 

[Brutius]

"That's why I like talking and arguing with Coach34, he knows football."

I think you like him because you are both arrogant pricks and you get along telling old stories about how you took some dude out and had him catch a fish or had a 12th grader on your baseball team hit a home run. You sound like someone from Gene's page telling others that they shouldn't post because they know less about coaching than someone else. I love how you and your buddy coach only use stats or ideals when they suit you. You two really are two peas in a pod. LOOK AT ME!!!! I COACHED HIGH SCHOOL BASEBALL SO I KNOW ALL ABOUT FOOTBALL! LOOK AT ME! I TAKE WHITE TRASH SLUTS OUT ON MY BOAT SO DON'T COME AT ME WITH YOUR NONSENSE ABOUT TEAMS WINNING NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS RUNNING A WEST COAST OFFENSE!!!!!!! YOU BETTER RECOGNIZE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We all know why you both hate Sylvester Croom and it really has nothing to do with the offense or defense his teams run.

 

[Todd4State]

your point was the West Coast offense has been used succesfully in college football by teams recently. I showed that was true only in examples of teams loaded
with NFL talent. That makes your point wrong.

</p>

Your point about being able run any offense you want with three or four first round picks is best one point of all in this thread.

 

[Coach34]

between running a variation, or incorporating aspects of the WCO into what you do, and attempting to use the exact same playbook a NFL team does. The latter is the Croom way.

</p>And that was the first thing I had to learn as a young coach. Having a father that coached exposed me to so much and gave me a wealth of football knowledge. And when I became a head coach and coordinator, I was ready to show everybody how much I knew. Problem was, I was trying to get my teams to know as much as I did in a short time, and its just not feasible. Once I figured out it didnt matter how much I knew, but its how much they know, I was a much better offensive coach. I hate my early teams suffered for that, but lesson learned.

And I think that is what Crooms needs to learn. Having a system that is so complicated your starting QB cant make checks, is ridiculous. Mississippi's QB was making checks in their 1st scrimmage of the season while heading up a new offense. Yet, we dont have QB's making checks in game 10 of a season. Whats wrong with this picture? You have QB's now making checks in high school in some programs, yet we cant at MSU?

Its also why the spread has caught on, in addition to making the defense defend the whole field. Its simple. Many times, OC's and QB's have basically one read to make when deciding on what to do. 18, 19, and 20 yr old men can do that alot easier than all the multiple reads of the WCO.

 

[benatmsu]

"We all know why you both hate Sylvester Croom and it really has nothing to do with the offense or defense his teams run."

 

[saddawg]

Sorry you were the fat kid in the band that always got picked last in the back yard and never got laid by the cheerleaders.

I was nice to people like you in High School and College.

Figures you support Osama Obama. He going to make it better for you poor picked on whiners, isn't he?

As far as Croom being black, the coach I referenced above as being the best I've been around, is black.

And he has more offensive imagination in his dick than Croom does in his entire body.

Now Mr. Bitter that the football team used to wedgie you every day at recess and laugh at your pecker in the showers ,

+%!% OFF.

 

[Coach34]

"You two really are two peas in a pod. LOOK AT ME!!!! I COACHED HIGH SCHOOL BASEBALL SO I KNOW ALL ABOUT FOOTBALL! LOOK AT ME!"

I was also a head football coach by the way....I could not be a head coach in both sports in bigger schools, so I chose to be a head baseball coach and a coordinator in football.

"We all know why you both hate Sylvester Croom and it really has nothing to do with the offense or defense his teams run."

And you couldnt be further from the truth, so dont start spouting off your liberal ********. I dont like Crooms because:

1. He came in spouting this character crap, and we have had numerous instances of arrests since he was hired. This is college, and kids are going to get into trouble. Naturally, you dont want a bunch of thieves and druggies as your players. Jackie wasnt trying to recruit these types either.

2. Just about any doorknob of a coach can come in, hire a very good DC, recruit defensive talent, and keep games closer.

3. The offense is Crooms area of expertise, and its the part of our team he directly controls. And not coincidentally, its one of the worst units in the nation. Offense held hostage- Year 5.

4. He is so damn hardheaded. What you are doing isnt working- change. Its that simple.

People want to get on Jackie about his offenses, but he was nowhere near this stubborn. Jackie gave his coordinators his philosophy, told them to get the job done or they would get fired

Watson Brown- ran an option offense. It was lethal with Sleepy at QB, but after him we didnt have a QB half as talented. When we fizzled out after Sleepy got hurt, Jackie fired Watson.
Bruce Arians- good coordinator, but never stays anywhere very long. He was a big change from Watson.
Lynn Amadee- conservative, old school guy....Did like to throw deep though...similar offense to Crooms minus the deep ball
Sparky Woods- more formations, less conservative, pass-oriented coach. Our offense became a hybrid of him and Jackie's philosophy meshing together...problem was we had very average OL's during his time. With some better OL guys, would have been some of our best offenses.

Jackie was trying to constantly improve what we did. Other coaches do that. We have the same defense since Crooms arrived- just more depth. We have the same offense since Crooms arrived, and it is getting worse rather than better.
THATS WHY I DONT LIKE CROOMS you 17'ing moron liberal

 

[Brutius]

make stuff up.

I'm still waiting to hear how you qualify more than Todd or me to discuss our football team. When was your last division I college coaching job?

We know you hate Coach Croom. We get it we really do.

 

[HD6]

freshman Nelson Hurst, who I think we expect a contribution from this year.

"The West Coast offense isn't easy to learn at all; when I first got here, the playbook was one of the first things I picked up. I have been studying it real hard because you can't learn all of it at once."

With such limited practice time, why would run an offense that takes so much study and preparation to run effectively? There's a reason so many pro teams run it well, because they do football from sunup to sundown. You have time to study a 300 page playbook.

I don't really care what happens as long as we win, but it would be a lot easier to win if we averaged 20 points a game plus offensively.

 

[hatfieldms]

1. He came in spouting this character crap, and we have had numerous instances of arrests since he was hired. This is college, and kids are going to get into trouble. Naturally, you dont want a bunch of thieves and druggies as your players. Jackie wasnt trying to recruit these types either.

Have you heard Croom preach any of this recently or are you like most of the idiots on OMSpirit just hanging on to quotes from 4 years ago? It is safe to say that Croom was had to learn on the job and one of the first things I would imagine he learned was that you cant kick off every kid that gets into trouble
</p>

 

[lumberg321]

but if I was Croom, I'd run Dixon all over everyone's arse.

 

[dawgstudent]

that coaches are designing their defenses with quicker and lighter defensive front sevens to combat the spread. Thus, this could play right into what Croom wants with an emphasis on pounding the football being more beneficial towards the latter part of the game.

 

[IBleedMaroonDawg]

And this is the only hope to help our anemic passing game. I also think it is asinine to get too wound up over the first scrimmage of the year. Most first scrimmages are very ugly across the board and have little resemblance to what will happen the rest of the year. Most coaches I know will tell you that you will get a better reading on how well your team will perform by the second game of the season.

 

[dawgstudent]

this is the 2nd scrimmage in a row where the offense has done absolutely zero. I'm not going to ***** about the offense too much until we start losing and we are scoring 15 pts a game.

 

[RebelRichman.nafoom]

[No message]