To those who follow more closely....(baseball)

[Coach34]

in the wake of hearing that our pitchers may not ice after outings, how many pitchers have we lost for significant time due to injury the last 5 years? How many got hurt after they signed and ended up leaving?

Seems like we have lost way more quality arms than we should the last 5 years</p>

 

[Coach34]

in the wake of hearing that our pitchers may not ice after outings, how many pitchers have we lost for significant time due to injury the last 5 years? How many got hurt after they signed and ended up leaving?

Seems like we have lost way more quality arms than we should the last 5 years</p>

 

[williecunningham]

How many times have you made this same post in the last two weeks?

 

[Jackdragbean]

How many condoms have you sold in the last 5 years?

When answering this question, please show the contrasts between MSU and other teams in the SEC and league. Thanks. I know this is Polk hate season now, but I'd like to hear actual numbers etc.

Oh, and I think the whole icing rumor is complete and utter bullcrap. Yeah, all of the coaches have forgotten how to coach in every part of the game. They should all die, blah, blah, blah. Yes, we're sucking it up, but you same <17>ers were screaming praise in post season last year. I bitched about Polk last year, then they went to Omaha. I said he had a season pass, and the following season after this one, he had better get it done. I ate my crow, and still taste it. There's a chance Polk will make you eat it again.

 

[Coach34]

thats the first time I have asked the <17'ing> question

 

[Coach34]

where have I said a damn thing about Polk? I asked a question about pitching injuries. In light of the 6-pack rumor that we dont ice, and rumors here tend to have legs, I think its a valid question.

Nice job of going Jean's Page though. Go rant at somebody else dipshit

 

[Goat Holder]

There's a chance Polk will make you eat it again.

Look at the circumstances. Multiple players out with injury and we seem to add to that list every week. We won't even have a chance to "get hot" at the end of the year if we don't win enough to get an NCAA bid.

 

[DirtyLopez]

arms after an outing, I am turning in my MSU card. That is the stupidest idea i have ever heard. Don't most of our pitchers have tendinitis? Tendinitis is inflamation. The best treatment for inflamation is ice. It is probably true though.

 

[Jackdragbean]

You didn't, but I threw it in there. Also, Gene's Page? Really? So if I disagree with your dumb ***, I should go to Gene's Page? Wow Peaches, way to go. Your internet credibility just shot up 2 points. Good one! I knew where you were going, or trying to go with the thread so I asked for other teams' #'s and talked about my crow eating from last year.

And as far as a the rumors go, yep I've seen alot of rumors have legs, but I've also seen some idiotic rumors concerning Polk because we all have loved to hate his *** at some point. Although rumors are welcome, I can call ******** on the one's I don't believe. Forgive me lord of the short, fat, balding, has-been coaching, LSU creaming, condom salesmen.</p>

 

[Jackdragbean]

I said next year he's likely to make you eat crow again......if he's still here. Amazing. You come out of the woodworks if you think someone might be a Polk apologist. As I said before, I hated his *** last year and decided to sit back and watch this year on the fence..

 

[Todd4State]

I'm going to try to answer your question because I actually thought it was a good question.

Here's what I've come up with:

2005- No significant injuries

2006- Koon, Andy Wilson, Lea (initially injured during this season and carried over into next season), Mike Valentine.

2007- Wesson, Weatherford (returned during season) and Lea (still hurt from lthe previous season)

2008- Crosswhite, Pigott, Whitney, and Weatherford and counting.

I know that this is four years, and not five, but I've only included the seasons that McNickle has been our pitching coach.

 

[patdog]

I said next year he's likely to make you eat crow again......if he's still here.

Polk has had 1 good postseason out of 6 since he's been back. Odds are, he won't make anybody eat crow next year.</p>

 

[ArmyofDoggness]

He is on here I see, maybe he can tell us if this is true. I personally find it incredibly hard to believe that the no ice rumor is true. </p>

 

[Todd4State]

Brinson left before we hired McNickle.

 

[Jackdragbean]

That's a good possibility. It just seems that every time I start blasting him for not playing small ball, or questioning pitching, recruiting, etc., he turns it around. I'm just going to sit back, give him this year of crap and see what happens.

The only thing that I disagree with some of the board on is the ice rumor. I just don't see any baseball coach being that stupid, and Ron has been in baseball long enough to know. It's a possibility that the fire is burning out, but the lightbulb hasn't blown as far as the basics and I think the injuries are more bad luck than coaching. </p>

 

[seshomoru]

It's simple. Warmup, core activity, cool down. Cooling down has nothing to do with temperature. It's slowly lowering the heart rate, returning to a normal blood flow, and allowing the healing process to start. Swimming some easy laps in a pool would be great for pitchers, actually.

Basically, ice is for after a proper cool down, and the only real benefit is that it feels good. It's not helping or hurting anything. If your arm hurts after you've thrown, there is something wrong, and ice isn't going to heal it.

</p>

 

[saddawg]

A coach told me they use heat.

 

[State82]

[No message]

 

[Todd4State]

Basically, ice is for after a proper cool down, and the only real benefit is that it feels good. It's not helping or hurting anything. If your arm hurts after you've thrown, there is something wrong, and ice isn't going to heal it.

</p>

Ice reduces the blood flow, and that reduces inflammation. If you can reduce the inflammation, then that can help the tissues heal more quickly. And when I say heal, I'm talking about microtrauma to the tissues. What happens when you don't ice, is that microtrauma remains and takes longer to heal, and if you go back out there 5 days later and throw again, you will have some microtrauma from the last outing, and it adds up over the season until you have to shut it down.

Also, if you throw a baseball at mod-max effort 200 times, including actual game pitches, warm-ups between innings and a bullpen session before the game (talking about a starting pitcher that has thrown 120 pitches in this instance), you probably will at the very least have some soreness and swelling. The key is to look for warning signs such as weakness, stiffness or prolonged pain.

You are correct that ice won't heal anything by itself, but it does help control the inflammation process and promote the healing process. We're trying to prevent injuries, and that's what our staff is not doing to the extent that they should, assuming the rumors are true.</p>

 

[rem101]

A coach told me they use heat.

according to rookie of the year, i thought it was supposed to be hot ice.</p>

 

[seshomoru]

Basically, ice is for after a proper cool down, and the only real benefit is that it feels good. It's not helping or hurting anything. If your arm hurts after you've thrown, there is something wrong, and ice isn't going to heal it.

</p>

Ice reduces the blood flow, and that reduces inflammation. If you can reduce the inflammation, then that can help the tissues heal more quickly. And when I say heal, I'm talking about microtrauma to the tissues. What happens when you don't ice, is that microtrauma remains and takes longer to heal, and if you go back out there 5 days later and throw again, you will have some microtrauma from the last outing, and it adds up over the season until you have to shut it down.

Also, if you throw a baseball at mod-max effort 200 times, including actual game pitches, warm-ups between innings and a bullpen session before the game (talking about a starting pitcher that has thrown 120 pitches in this instance), you probably will at the very least have some soreness and swelling. The key is to look for warning signs such as weakness, stiffness or prolonged pain.

You are correct that ice won't heal anything by itself, but it does help control the inflammation process and promote the healing process. We're trying to prevent injuries, and that's what our staff is not doing to the extent that they should, assuming the rumors are true.</p>

Ice does decrease swelling and it does slow the response of some nerve endings, which register pain. Ice does feel good, and the mental benefits of not being sore do count for a lot. However, it really does nothing to speed up actual recovery of the micro tears in your muscles. It simply makes it hurt less and is more effective than any ibruprofen or tylenol at controlling the discomfort. Still, it's only pain management, and ice alone doesn't actually do anything to speed recovery. That comes from proper cool down excercises, protien and carb replenishment, and the right activities and rest in the following days. Ice can certainly make these more pleasant to go through, but it won't cause injury if you don't.

Don't get me wrong. I definitely advocate icing, but if you don't do it, you aren't actually hurting yourself. Odds are, in regards to MSU pitching, the injuries are stemming from something else. Improper warmup, to much work during the week, outings lasting to long resulting in tissue or cartiledge damage, etc. I don't think not icing is the problem that should be looked at. Many pitchers and athletes don't do it. Hell, some use heat. Some use both. The injuries to our pitching staff, like the non contact injuries to nearly all athletes, are being caused by something else.</p>Edit:

Now bear in mind, and this may be a gross Rule 7 violation, I was a pitcher growing up and iced all the time. I started having shoulder issues and to this day, I still get the occasional pains while swimming, or just sitting in a chair. Most of my experience with it now comes from endurance sports, and if you ask ten of us, you'll get ten different answers. There are studies coming out all the time that fall on both sides. Even today there is a move away from the 'lactic acid buildup causes the pain and must be flushed out' line of though toward the 'microtears cause pain and you need to get the blood flowing to heal them' line of thought.

Still, I will maintain MSU's pitching injuries are as a result of something else besides not icing. ****, we don't even know if the not icing thing is true or not.

 

[Coach34]

of their regimen as well. The amount of running to build stamina, off-season throwing program to build arm strength, pitch counts in preseason practice...all these facets go along with the duties of a pitching coach. Just seems like something is missing over these few years, as opposed to just "bad luck"

 

[seshomoru]

of their regimen as well. The amount of running to build stamina, off-season throwing program to build arm strength, pitch counts in preseason practice...all these facets go along with the duties of a pitching coach. Just seems like something is missing over these few years, as opposed to just "bad luck"

</p> And that's what I'd be more interested in knowing about. His actual program. How do we build up the arms leading to the season, what's done to maintain them. It could be a square peg in a round hole thing. No athlete is exactly alike, and they all respond to and need different things. Could be that he's using a blanket program and it's killing some guys.

 

[Coach34]

"Could be that he's using a blanket program and it's killing some guys."

All pitchers are not created equal. You are exactly right. All this is guesswork of course, but very good points to ponder.

 

[Todd4State]

But as far as not using ice, I think is pretty foolish. It may not be the only thing, but I definately think it's part of the problem. It's probably not a coincidence that we have a new trainer for the baseball team.

If you don't use ice one time, yes, it probably won't end your career or anything like that, but if you do it over a period of time, the repetitive trauma adds up. And it's not just about managing pain, although that certainly goes along with it. You're also talking about managing swelling and edema.

I just have always felt like, when you're dealing with athletes, any potential problems should be managed as best as possible. So, if ice has been shown to help reduce injury, why not do it? Especially if we do have to use a pitcher longer than we should. (which I don't advocate by any means) It's not like we're talking about putting snake oil on our pitchers arms. I imagine that most of the pitchers that use heat probably use it before they pitch to help stretch their arms out, but not after.

The injuries that we're having more often than not are "sore shoulders". That tells me that we are either A. Not stretching properly or B. We're not managing it C. Our pitchers are being overworked, or D. Some or all of the above.

I think is answer is D.

 

[KurtRambis4]

make them run more laps...

/

 

[SanfordRJones]

it's only pain management, and ice alone doesn't actually do anything to speed recovery.

That's not true. Cooling the muscle down (it shouldn't be frigid or that could lead to other problems), constricts the blood vessels and reduces swelling. The reduction of swelling reduces pain, but it also speeds the healing process. Compression is also important because it constricts the leaking tears, which also speeds recovery. If the arm isn't treated with ice and compression, recovery can't begin until the swelling naturally goes down, which would happen after a few days. For a starting pitcher, that would mean his arm wouldn't start healing until his next start, so he would be throwing bullpens with an arm that is still swollen and, therefore, not even beginning to heal yet.

On top of that, if the pitcher's arm is still stiff/ sore/ hurting the next time he pitches, it could easily affect his mechanics. Pain affecting mechanics is a recipe for injury. Thus, the simple fact that it makes the arm feel good is reason enough for ice to be a no-brainer.

 

[seshomoru]

But as far as not using ice, I think is pretty foolish. It may not be the only thing, but I definately think it's part of the problem. It's probably not a coincidence that we have a new trainer for the baseball team.

If you don't use ice one time, yes, it probably won't end your career or anything like that, but if you do it over a period of time, the repetitive trauma adds up. And it's not just about managing pain, although that certainly goes along with it. You're also talking about managing swelling and edema.

I just have always felt like, when you're dealing with athletes, any potential problems should be managed as best as possible. So, if ice has been shown to help reduce injury, why not do it? Especially if we do have to use a pitcher longer than we should. (which I don't advocate by any means) It's not like we're talking about putting snake oil on our pitchers arms. I imagine that most of the pitchers that use heat probably use it before they pitch to help stretch their arms out, but not after.

The injuries that we're having more often than not are "sore shoulders". That tells me that we are either A. Not stretching properly or B. We're not managing it C. Our pitchers are being overworked, or D. Some or all of the above.

I think is answer is D.

There's another can of worms. I NEVER stretch pre-workout. The warm up takes care of getting loose.

The main thing is do what feels good, and what helps the individual.

</p>

 

[seshomoru]

it's only pain management, and ice alone doesn't actually do anything to speed recovery.

That's not true. Cooling the muscle down (it shouldn't be frigid or that could lead to other problems), constricts the blood vessels and reduces swelling. The reduction of swelling reduces pain, but it also speeds the healing process. Compression is also important because it constricts the leaking tears, which also speeds recovery. If the arm isn't treated with ice and compression, recovery can't begin until the swelling naturally goes down, which would happen after a few days. For a starting pitcher, that would mean his arm wouldn't start healing until his next start, so he would be throwing bullpens with an arm that is still swollen and, therefore, not even beginning to heal yet.

On top of that, if the pitcher's arm is still stiff/ sore/ hurting the next time he pitches, it could easily affect his mechanics. Pain affecting mechanics is a recipe for injury. Thus, the simple fact that it makes the arm feel good is reason enough for ice to be a no-brainer.

It would begin healing when he'd done a cool down exercise or two, and even more so in his sleep. If the arm is healthy, it takes nowhere near a few days to BEGIN healing. Besides, the idea is not to heal faster, it's to heal properly, which you can do with ice or no ice. It's been done both ways, and done successfully for a long, long time.

Like I said though, you will find doctors, coaches, athletes, trainers and so on that will give all kinds of varying opinions on the subject. I'm just saying not icing is not the cause of these injuries. There's something more going on. A bad program. Trying to fit an individual into the wrong program. Bad mechanics. Hell, it could be that the hurt pitchers iced for the right amount of time, did the cool down, but then went out and got wasted then did a work out dehydrated and hungover, lost focus and tweaked something.</p>

 

[Todd4State]

That's the "why stretch cold muscles" arguement.

 

[SanfordRJones]

...don't reduce the temperature of the inflamed area enough to constrict blood flow. I hear what you're saying, but I'm not buying it. However, I definitely agree with you about something being wrong with the program as a whole. Something seems to be way off.