Two questions for the Leach detractors and general football program curmudgeons

[Perd Hapley]

1) What average offensive output (points per game, yards per game, you name it) would be an acceptable benchmark against SEC opponents?

2) What head coaches or potential head coaches out there would be capable of producing said output with the current talent on hand at MSU?

These are legit questions aimed at applying some context to all this bitching.

 

[Rupert Jenkins]

Crickets

 

[MaxwellSmart]

I really don't care about a certain number of points as long as we're winning or at least look competitive against better talent.

 

[JacksonCPAdawg]

not looking like a SWAC team against Kentucky, GA, LSU, and AL would be a start.

Probably ole miss too

 

[Seinfeld]

1) It truly depends. For the average joe coach, I've got no problem with where our offense is today. When we have an alleged offensive mastermind as a head coach, though, I expect better than being 8th in output out of 14 SEC teams. If you're not going to win 9-10 games, at least do what you're known for doing. We're currently barely outpacing Vanderbilt in this department

2) No matter whether we want to talk pre-NIL or post-NIL, a big part of the reason that we pay a head coach $5.5M/yr is to attract the talent that he needs to win. For some, that's recruiting at an elite level. For others, it's recruiting the talent they can work with and mold into competitors. I never expected Leach to recruit a boatload of 4-5* kids, but I did expect him to get players that can run his system, yet all we're getting in year 3 is constant moaning and groaning about ST miscues, receivers dropping passes, O linemen not blocking, and a QB that can't move or throw a ball 30 yards downfield.

When you bring in a system coach, there are actually acceptable failures. Having an inconsistent, sputtering system isn't one of them, though. Let me also say that I'm not entirely done with Leach, and I'd like to see how things work with a mobile, stronger QB. With all due respect to Rogers, though... if we're sitting here next Spring, and we're being told that the QB competition isn't really even a competition. i.e. Rogers has it locked up. I'll be mentally checked out

 

[XBLDawg]

1) What average offensive output (points per game, yards per game, you name it) would be an acceptable benchmark against SEC opponents?

2) What head coaches or potential head coaches out there would be capable of producing said output with the current talent on hand at MSU?

These are legit questions aimed at applying some context to all this bitching.

Leach was hired to bring offense, nothing more or less.

2016 38ppg 480 ypg
2017 30ppg 434 ypg
2018 37ppg 451 ypg
2019 38ppg 505 ypg

those numbers are pretty consistent and that was with 3 different quarterbacks.

Yea yea that was PAC12. So adjust it down a bit for SEC if you like but given that Rogers is in his 3rd year, we should be getting those similar numbers if this offense can be picked up by a guy like Minshew that showed up at WSU in June.

30 points per game and 420 yards per game is not an unreasonable ask for an offensive minded coach. Truthfully, those numbers are on the low side. But since we are poor little ol MSU, I will give Leach that adjustment.

It is time to give another QB a shot

 

[Grover777]

Sec defensive line vs an o line that is under construction is a big difference.

Minshew is an nfl qb , quick feet, physically strong in the weight room and an adequate arm to make all the throws in the nfl. just apples and oranges.

 

[IBleedMaroonDawg]

The REAL Recruitment Tool

 

[XBLDawg]

Sec defensive line vs an o line that is under construction is a big difference.

Minshew is an nfl qb , quick feet, physically strong in the weight room and an adequate arm to make all the throws in the nfl. just apples and oranges.

Anthony Gordon wasn’t drafted and put up the biggest numbers of all of them.

I just showed you 4 different seasons at WSU with 3 different QBs that all put up similar yearly numbers.
But here we go. At MSU, in year 3, we have excuses for offensive line, a 3rd year QB, the opponents…

Anything else? The excuses are just comical at this point.

 

[Grover777]

Yea dummy, that’s the pac 12 vs the sec

that’s also year nine for leach building a program and not the second full season after cleaning up Moorhead’s garbage

 

[jethreauxdawg]

Leach was hired to bring offense, nothing more or less.

2016 38ppg 480 ypg
2017 30ppg 434 ypg
2018 37ppg 451 ypg
2019 38ppg 505 ypg

those numbers are pretty consistent and that was with 3 different quarterbacks.

Yea yea that was PAC12. So adjust it down a bit for SEC if you like but given that Rogers is in his 3rd year, we should be getting those similar numbers if this offense can be picked up by a guy like Minshew that showed up at WSU in June.

30 points per game and 420 yards per game is not an unreasonable ask for an offensive minded coach. Truthfully, those numbers are on the low side. But since we are poor little ol MSU, I will give Leach that adjustment.

It is time to give another QB a shot

Are you sticking with the line that Will should put up the same numbers as an NFL qb did while playing in the PAC12? Or does “adjust it down a bit” cover you? I mean if we’re adjusting expectations down “a bit”, I could play just as good as an NFL qb.

 

[SouthFarmchicken]

Are you sticking with the line that Will should put up the same numbers as an NFL qb did while playing in the PAC12? Or does “adjust it down a bit” cover you? I mean if we’re adjusting expectations down “a bit”, I could play just as good as an NFL qb.

Here’s the thing. His system requires a NFL QB to win 10 in the SEC unless we have an elite defense. We have had an elite defense once in the past 22 years and only won 8 (thanks Moorhead).

We have had a NFL QB starting for us twice over the past 22 years. To put this in perspective, Ole Miss has had Manning, Kelly, Snead, and Corral. Dart will get a shot in the NFL in three years too.

Sounds just like Mullen’s system…with similar results until we get the best QB in the country.

 

[Grover777]

Leach has no problem getting four star qbs

past msu stars and qbs are irrelevant

hes got a freshman and a redshirt freshman, they have to be given time to Develop

 

[XBLDawg]

Yea dummy, that’s the pac 12 vs the sec

that’s also year nine for leach building a program and not the second full season after cleaning up Moorhead’s garbage

You are the KING of excuses.
We hired an offensive guru, dipshit. So we are supposed to give him 9 years now?
And we hired him BECAUSE of his offensive production. Pac12 wasn’t a caveat when he was hired. Now we are supposed to excuse the inferior play BECAUSE we are in the SEC? Jesus 17n Christ.

we throw the goddamn ball 50 times a games and some of you act like 400 yards per game is too much to ask of poor ol Mike and Will.

 

[jethreauxdawg]

Here’s the thing. His system requires a NFL QB to win 10 in the SEC unless we have an elite defense. We have had an elite defense once in the past 22 years and only won 8 (thanks Moorhead).

We have had a NFL QB starting for us twice over the past 22 years. To put this in perspective, Ole Miss has had Manning, Kelly, Snead, and Corral. Dart will get a shot in the NFL in three years too.

Sounds just like Mullen’s system…with similar results until we get the best QB in the country.

Maybe so. I can live with Mullen results. I do think we will get more QB’s that will at least spend time with NFL teams now that we have Leach. He’s already recruiting the best QB prospects we’ve ever had. I don’t dislike Will. I think he’s a lot like Tyler Russell was for us. He’s a good guy that gives us all he’s got and has nothing to be ashamed of, but I think we’ll see a step up when he’s gone.

 

[paindonthurt]

1) What average offensive output (points per game, yards per game, you name it) would be an acceptable benchmark against SEC opponents?

2) What head coaches or potential head coaches out there would be capable of producing said output with the current talent on hand at MSU?

These are legit questions aimed at applying some context to all this bitching.

I care about wins and losses.

Right now he is doing better than his predecessors.

 

[Grover777]

You are the KING of excuses.
We hired an offensive guru, dipshit. So we are supposed to give him 9 years now?
And we hired him BECAUSE of his offensive production. Pac12 wasn’t a caveat when he was hired. Now we are supposed to excuse the inferior play BECAUSE we are in the SEC? Jesus 17n Christ.

we throw the goddamn ball 50 times a games and some of you act like 400 yards per game is too much to ask of poor ol Mike and Will.

Offensive guru doesn’t really matter when your losses are to Georgia, alabama and LSU who all defeat you at the line of scrimmage with nfl players

dipshit

yea year two vs year nine does matter when you are rebuilding a garbage program

 

[BigDawg0074]

Sec defensive line vs an o line that is under construction is a big difference.

Minshew is an nfl qb , quick feet, physically strong in the weight room and an adequate arm to make all the throws in the nfl. just apples and oranges.

Not to mention the dude is cool as a cucumber. Rogers seems that way but when the heat is on in the pocket he doesn’t look like it.

 

[The Cooterpoot]

Offensive guru doesn’t really matter when your losses are to Georgia, alabama and LSU who all defeat you at the line of scrimmage with nfl players

dipshit

yea year two vs year nine does matter when you are rebuilding a garbage program

You're like the town *****. Your *** is hanging out a lot, and it's getting pounded. Eventually it turns to leather and you no longer get the attention you so desperately seek.

 

[Grover777]

Not to mention the dude is cool as a cucumber. Rogers seems that way but when the heat is on in the pocket he doesn’t look like it.

Minshew was like a matador in the pocket, you almost couldn’t sack the guy. He would be unreal in this offense right now.
some of those tough Texas qbs leach had at tech, I think we will see some nerve in the pocket with Sawyer and for sure with Locke. Locke is going to be really good.

right now with ole miss going To hell , losing their coach, their player and their recruits, leach has to be licking his chops. Once we get an upgrade at qbs I think the offense will take off

 

[Perd Hapley]

Ok, so nobody really answered either question. But there was one thing I found interesting:

A lot of people seem to have set their expectations way higher due strictly to us hiring an “offensive guru, genius, etc.”. See, I just don’t think that description of Leach is true at all, and I think he’ll tell you that himself. Leach is a guy who intricately knows one offensive system really well…..one that he helped invent. That’s not an offensive guru any moreso than Paul Johnson was an offensive guru with the triple option. He’s a system coach. And what’s true of all system coaches is they usually need at least a little time to get it running at peak potential. More on that in a second.

Lets look at the numbers from Washington State. Leach’s 8 year average final rank in YPG was 32.3. His 8 year average final rank in scoring offense was 42. That’s in the PAC 12….probably the weakest P5 conference over the past decade. Numbers are above average across the board, but I don’t think anyone should have looked at those results and said “here comes a big time offense within 3 years in the SEC”.

Deeper dive - In Year 3 at Washington State, they finished 9th in the nation in YPG, but only 49th in scoring offense. The average finish nationally in YPG for the first 3 years was 51st, scoring offense was 69th. Sound familiar? Year 4 and beyond is when things started to take off a little more.

None of that is to say Leach is going to exactly match his WSU offensive output in the SEC. That won’t happen to the same extent just due to the talent gap and how good the defenses are. But it will continue to get better. Another statistic that is quite telling - points per play. Way more relevant than yards per game or scoring offense. At MSU, Leach’s national rank here was 110th in 2020, 86th in 2021. 2022 so far is 43rd. Truth be told, the gap between 2021 and 2020 probably wasn’t quite that big, due to the all-SEC schedule in 2020. But we’ve taken a step forward so far this year.

 

[Leeshouldveflanked]

The sad thing about recruiting budgets is ours is still at the 2019 level. Ole Miss has doubled theirs.

 

[Clay Lyle]

Leach went 8-4 in years 4 and 5 at Washington State but lost to FCS schools in both seasons. I can’t wait for the debate here when that happens at State.

 

[ArcherSPS]

1) What average offensive output (points per game, yards per game, you name it) would be an acceptable benchmark against SEC opponents?

2) What head coaches or potential head coaches out there would be capable of producing said output with the current talent on hand at MSU?

These are legit questions aimed at applying some context to all this bitching.

2019 Moorhead averaged 377.88 ypg, while averaging 21.5 ppg.

2022 Leach currently sits at 360.86 ypg, current average is 20.7 ppg.

 

[SouthFarmchicken]

2019 Moorhead averaged 377.88 ypg, while averaging 21.5 ppg.

2022 Leach currently sits at 360.86 ypg, current average is 20.7 ppg.

Dude. It’s not a valid comparison. That 2019 defense was one of the worst in the past 15 years. At one point, we literally went 7 quarters without forcing a punt. And, we got to play Arkansas that year.

 

[Seinfeld]

The REAL Recruitment Tool

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This isn’t at all a shot at you, but this list really is entirely worthless. Are we really going to sit here and believe that Rutgers is spending more than Auburn? Utah more than Ohio St?

Do I think they’re all lying? No, but tracking finances is an absolute shell game, and I guarantee that these controllers are only revealing what they 100% have to reveal for this “recruiting budget”. i.e. Meals, mileage, hotels…. None of the stuff that truly lands a high profile recruit is in this.

Now, if we truly had all recruiting expenses baked into this, would it change our ranking? Probably not by much, and my bet is that we’d still be 11th or 12 in conference. I guaran-damn-tee that we’re spending more than $435k though. A whole lot more

 

[Ranchdawg]

The REAL Recruitment Tool

View attachment 261740

That's just the over the table money. More passes under the table at the top schools.

 

[chuckster.sixpack]

1) What average offensive output (points per game, yards per game, you name it) would be an acceptable benchmark against SEC opponents?

2) What head coaches or potential head coaches out there would be capable of producing said output with the current talent on hand at MSU?

These are legit questions aimed at applying some context to all this bitching.

+100 yards rushing vs the blue bloods
Matt Rhule

 

[Grover777]

Deion is going to coach ole miss

 

[tcdog70]

Don't forget His first year --we played an all-SEC schedule.

 

[$altyDawg]

1) What average offensive output (points per game, yards per game, you name it) would be an acceptable benchmark against SEC opponents?

2) What head coaches or potential head coaches out there would be capable of producing said output with the current talent on hand at MSU?

These are legit questions aimed at applying some context to all this bitching.

1) 24 points should keep us in 90% of the SEC games as long as our defense performs up to par. 25 to 31 points makes the odds increase. I remember one of the Croom/McCorvey years where we averaged about 12 points per SEC game.
2) Ah, trick question. The reason I say so is that the current talent on hand is here as part of Leach's system. I'm not sure there is a coach that could take this particular group and do any better than Leach because his system is why they were brought here. The next coach isn't going to come behind Leach to build on what he left; he's going to dismantle and pretty much start over again.

 

[JacksonCPAdawg]

You're like the town *****. Your *** is hanging out a lot, and it's getting pounded. Eventually it turns to leather and you no longer get the attention you so desperately seek.

dont bother with this clown...he has an IQ in the single digits

 

[Perd Hapley]

2) Ah, trick question. The reason I say so is that the current talent on hand is here as part of Leach's system. I'm not sure there is a coach that could take this particular group and do any better than Leach because his system is why they were brought here. The next coach isn't going to come behind Leach to build on what he left; he's going to dismantle and pretty much start over again.

It wasn’t intended as a trick question. Current talent on hand doesn’t mean the exact players. It means the relative talent level on offense, which I believe is the same as it ever was under Moorhead, Mullen, latter Croom years, and Sherrill.

 

[Dawgg]

1) What average offensive output (points per game, yards per game, you name it) would be an acceptable benchmark against SEC opponents?

2) What head coaches or potential head coaches out there would be capable of producing said output with the current talent on hand at MSU?

These are legit questions aimed at applying some context to all this bitching.

1) The frustration with Leach is not about stats. If this is Will's last season at State, he will still eclipse Dak's passing yards by about 1,000 yards and 5 passing TDs. Great stats, but nobody is out here pretending like they'd rather have Will behind center over Dak. I don't give two maroon schitts about passing yards, rushing yards, ppg, time between plays, 20+ yard plays, 3rd down checkdowns 3 yards behind the first down marker, or how many touches Austin Williams gets. I want us to score more points than the other team scores. Sometimes that's 15 and sometimes that's 50.

2) Is the talent gap between Mississippi State and Ole Miss/Kentucky that large? Also, at what point does Leach 'own' the talent gap? I keep hearing that as an excuse for some of the letdowns, but I don't think I heard it to that extent during the Mullen era, certainly not by year 3.

 

[$altyDawg]

It wasn’t intended as a trick question. Current talent on hand doesn’t mean the exact players. It means the relative talent level on offense, which I believe is the same as it ever was under Moorhead, Mullen, latter Croom years, and Sherrill.

Well, that being the case I would like to think with the salary we have paid the last three coaches could at least draw someone who is not a gimmick to coach here. I have no idea who that might be, but we've got to eliminate the mentality that we're just poor ol little bitty Miss State and we'll never be able to draw anyone here. Hopefully whoever the new AD is will address that when it comes time.

 

[Mr. Cook]

1) What average offensive output (points per game, yards per game, you name it) would be an acceptable benchmark against SEC opponents?

2) What head coaches or potential head coaches out there would be capable of producing said output with the current talent on hand at MSU?

These are legit questions aimed at applying some context to all this bitching.

Because you want answers:

1) MSU final score > Opponent final score

2) Good coaches who adapt to change

 

[The Peeper]

1. I don't give a damn about # of completions or attempts, couldn't care less how many yards we pass for, that schitt (statistics) is for losers and sympathizers of losers. We've won games in the past throwing for hardly any yards so why are you basing this question on "offensive output"?


2. If he didn't like the talent or didn't think he could get the job done at $5M/yr, he shouldn't have taken the job. Coaches turn down jobs every year they don't like or "it isn't the right fit". He has receivers that have been here working in his self proclaimed simple system for 3 years that he wants to throw under the bus because they don't perform, but I don't see many starting he's signed in the last couple years either, do you? Are swing passes, "dink and dunk" passes, and 5 yard outs that difficult to catch for the receivers he has signed? If so we are in big trouble