We STILL are where we are in baseball because of pitching

[Perd Hapley]

Two major things have led to our pitching woes:

1) The absolute biggest problem - the entire 2022 class of pitchers may be busts. All of them. Kohn is the only one left, and he may be hurt or something but the jury is still out. He’s way behind schedule from what we were counting on either way. In any case, you can’t whiff on all but one pitcher (at most) in an entire recruiting class and not have major, multi-year struggles. People said at the end of last year that we may be looking at a 2 year pitching rebuild due largely to the 2022 class. That may prove to be true.

2) Injuries. This is much less of a concern this year than last (so far), but it sure would be nice to have Auger and Simmons available.

You also can’t build an entire pitching staff from the portal…..you have to develop guys. There are maybe 4-5 players per year in the transfer portal that are cut out for being SEC weekend starters. LSU landed 2 of them. We landed one in Gartman (hopefully). But there’s not enough guys to just build your entire rotation that way. Most aren’t cut out for being relievers in this league either, but here we are trying to build our entire bullpen from the rosters of midmajors. Its just not a recipe for success.

To me, its primarily a Foxhall problem. If it continues for the entire year, that’s the first head that has to roll. Hitting still seems adequate and the fielding will come around. But none of that will matter if pitching isn’t fixed.

 

[johnson86-1]

Yup. I don’t know if it’s an evaluation or development problem, but if what we have seen at far is really what we are, there’s no way to be decent missing on so many pitching prospects.

 

[Lettuce]

I think the problem can be corrected if we stop trying to throw a perfect game each outing. Seems like over the last 5 years, we have seen these crazy K numbers by our pitchers….So now, we have 10 guys who can throw it 95 but it takes 98 pitches to get out of the 4th inning

In fact, I believe this is the biggest factor for the upticks of game length, across the board in college baseball.

Like Qb’s in football, Aces are hard to come by in college. We need to use our brand, hammer the transfer portal and go find some guys who pitch……get away from these “country chunkers” as Polk used to say.

 

[57stratdawg]

We might be worse defensively than on the mound.

We have a ton of issues right now.

 

[8dog]

Two major things have led to our pitching woes:

1) The absolute biggest problem - the entire 2022 class of pitchers may be busts. All of them. Kohn is the only one left, and he may be hurt or something but the jury is still out. He’s way behind schedule from what we were counting on either way. In any case, you can’t whiff on all but one pitcher (at most) in an entire recruiting class and not have major, multi-year struggles. People said at the end of last year that we may be looking at a 2 year pitching rebuild due largely to the 2022 class. That may prove to be true.

2) Injuries. This is much less of a concern this year than last (so far), but it sure would be nice to have Auger and Simmons available.

You also can’t build an entire pitching staff from the portal…..you have to develop guys. There are maybe 4-5 players per year in the transfer portal that are cut out for being SEC weekend starters. LSU landed 2 of them. We landed one in Gartman (hopefully). But there’s not enough guys to just build your entire rotation that way. Most aren’t cut out for being relievers in this league either, but here we are trying to build our entire bullpen from the rosters of midmajors. Its just not a recipe for success.

To me, its primarily a Foxhall problem. If it continues for the entire year, that’s the first head that has to roll. Hitting still seems adequate and the fielding will come around. But none of that will matter if pitching isn’t fixed.

A good coach will fix it quick. The third year class at OM that won a natty had zero pitchers that helped them win the CWS.

But this staff is in over its head. I think the bar for conference wins is 5 games. And I’m not sure how we get there. Just a total humiliation.

 

[Seinfeld]

A good coach will fix it quick. The third year class at OM that won a natty had zero pitchers that helped them win the CWS.

But this staff is in over its head. I think the bar for conference wins is 5 games. And I’m not sure how we get there. Just a total humiliation.

I’m dead serious when I say this, but it’s reached the point where if I’m AD, I’d have to ask Lemonis “what exactly is it that you and your staff have been doing for the last two years?”

Can’t make it to Omaha? Ok. Can’t keep up with LSU in recruiting? Understood. Not a top 25 team quite yet? Fine

But to be this embarrassingly bad in multiple phases of the game against VMI and ULM is just inexcusable. Something is bad wrong with this coaching staff, and it didn’t just start last week

 

[Ranchdawg]

Move Hancock back to first and play Highfill at C. Pitch for contact and quit over analyzing. And for goodness sakes cut out the errors! There is no excuse for averaging over 2 errors a game!

 

[wsjmsu75]

Move Hancock back to first and play Highfill at C. Pitch for contact and quit over analyzing. And for goodness sakes cut out the errors! There is no excuse for averaging over 2 errors a game!

This. The walks just drive me crazy. Especially when we have a huge lead like we did Saturday. I mean, we could have just thrown right down the middle of the plate every single pitch and won easily. Batters will get themselves out more often than not if you just make them hit.

 

[The Peeper]

This. The walks just drive me crazy. Especially when we have a huge lead like we did Saturday. I mean, we could have just thrown right down the middle of the plate every single pitch and won easily. Batters will get themselves out more often than not if you just make them hit.

Jay Powell said last night postgame on the radio that was the problem last night, throwing it right down the middle of the plate because they were told to throw strikes after all of the walks on Saturday.........

 

[IBleedMaroonDawg]

Jay Powell said last night postgame on the radio that was the problem last night, throwing it right down the middle of the plate because they were told to throw strikes after all of the walks on Saturday.........

 

[Ranchdawg]

Jay Powell said last night postgame on the radio that was the problem last night, throwing it right down the middle of the plate because they were told to throw strikes after all of the walks on Saturday.........

I gotta call BS on this. I watched the game and we were not throwing the ball right down the middle. They were moving the ball around trying to get strikes with pitches outside the strike zone as well. ULM is a better batting team than we are. Their pitcher was throwing 80MPH and lower with good break. We didn't see many fastballs during the game. We are really struggling with the curve balls and sliders.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

you have to develop guys

I wonder how much development college pitchers really get. Most of it's done in the summer. Hitting, fielding, even short stint pitching, I see it. But long pitching outings where guys work through things are just something that the college game doesn't allow.

That's why so many high-talent guys never pan out in college but do in the minors.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

I think the problem can be corrected if we stop trying to throw a perfect game each outing. Seems like over the last 5 years, we have seen these crazy K numbers by our pitchers….So now, we have 10 guys who can throw it 95 but it takes 98 pitches to get out of the 4th inning

In fact, I believe this is the biggest factor for the upticks of game length, across the board in college baseball.

Like Qb’s in football, Aces are hard to come by in college. We need to use our brand, hammer the transfer portal and go find some guys who pitch……get away from these “country chunkers” as Polk used to say.

You're onto something here. We could continue to go the analytic route with hitters, but I do wish we'd quit going the 'velo-only' route with pitchers. There just aren't enough Bednars out there. We need more Gravemans, who get a lot of weak contact.

Not to mention that strikeouts aren't as bad as they used to be considered. If those same hitters eventually catch up and launch some bombs, then those K's were worth it. Bottom line, if you're gonna be a high velo, high-K guy, you better not walk guys or give up mistakes, in other words, better shut folks down for your entire outing. And the coach better pull you at the correct time.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

A good coach will fix it quick. The third year class at OM that won a natty had zero pitchers that helped them win the CWS.

But this staff is in over its head. I think the bar for conference wins is 5 games. And I’m not sure how we get there. Just a total humiliation.

That's a little over the top negative. Go check out our early 2016 schedule. The same things were being said about that team.

 

[The Peeper]

I gotta call BS on this. I watched the game and we were not throwing the ball right down the middle. They were moving the ball around trying to get strikes with pitches outside the strike zone as well. ULM is a better batting team than we are. Their pitcher was throwing 80MPH and lower with good break. We didn't see many fastballs during the game. We are really struggling with the curve balls and sliders.

Call it what YOU want to but a former major league pitcher w/ lifetime 4.17 era, 423 strikeouts, and a World Series Game 7 win under his belt said it..........

 

[eckie1]

Two major things have led to our pitching woes:

1) The absolute biggest problem - the entire 2022 class of pitchers may be busts. All of them. Kohn is the only one left, and he may be hurt or something but the jury is still out. He’s way behind schedule from what we were counting on either way. In any case, you can’t whiff on all but one pitcher (at most) in an entire recruiting class and not have major, multi-year struggles. People said at the end of last year that we may be looking at a 2 year pitching rebuild due largely to the 2022 class. That may prove to be true.

2) Injuries. This is much less of a concern this year than last (so far), but it sure would be nice to have Auger and Simmons available.

You also can’t build an entire pitching staff from the portal…..you have to develop guys. There are maybe 4-5 players per year in the transfer portal that are cut out for being SEC weekend starters. LSU landed 2 of them. We landed one in Gartman (hopefully). But there’s not enough guys to just build your entire rotation that way. Most aren’t cut out for being relievers in this league either, but here we are trying to build our entire bullpen from the rosters of midmajors. Its just not a recipe for success.

To me, its primarily a Foxhall problem. If it continues for the entire year, that’s the first head that has to roll. Hitting still seems adequate and the fielding will come around. But none of that will matter if pitching isn’t fixed.

Regarding pitching, I can’t see any way that we are missing on so many players. I sat by Fristoes parents a few years ago, and they said Foxhall was THE reason they picked State. And Fristoe had a sh-T burger of a career here. Dude was a 10 on perfect game, so it’s like like he was a project.

Foxhall’s days have to be numbered here. If we aren’t any better than last year, we may have to call it a career for the entire staff.

 

[Ranchdawg]

Call it what YOU want to but a former major league pitcher w/ lifetime 4.17 era, 423 strikeouts, and a World Series Game 7 win under his belt said it..........

Go back and watch the game on ESPN replay and tell me that is correct. Otherwise you are just "he said she said". The announcers even said during the game that it was a liberal stike zone.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

Regarding pitching, I can’t see any way that we are missing on so many players. I sat by Fristoes parents a few years ago, and they said Foxhall was THE reason they picked State. And Fristoe had a sh-T burger of a career here. Dude was a 10 on perfect game, so it’s like like he was a project.

Foxhall’s days have to be numbered here. If we aren’t any better than last year, we may have to call it a career for the entire staff.

If Foxhall is a great recruiter, and we know that these guys are rated very highly......then it's either Foxhall is a bad coach or the ratings are out of whack and we shouldn't trust them as much.

I personally don't think Foxhall is a bad coach. He doesn't get to where he has being a bad coach. I don't like calling pitches, but some of it is necessary I suppose.

These guys have talent, but often it's just measurable talent, and they just don't adjust in college.

Or a 3rd option - maybe we should go for the slightly lower rated guys, like Graveman and Stratton, who may not be getting big attention out of high school, but do later on. Guys that haven't been developed on velo only. Guys that have command and can locate. This is Cade Smith.

 

[Perd Hapley]

We might be worse defensively than on the mound.

We have a ton of issues right now.

I don’t think so. Teams can have bad stretches defensively for a few games. Hell, the natty team struggled for more than half the year with fielding miscues. But if you’re good up the middle, you will be at minimum above average defensively….and we know what we have in Larry, Forsythe, and Jordan. Provided that Highfill can stay in the lineup, the only potential long term question mark is at 3rd base.

Hitting is also fine. We’re averaging 9.5 runs per game, which is way more than enough for us to be 4-0 right now if we just had an average SEC pitching staff. Pitching is the problem that has to be fixed, period.

 

[Perd Hapley]

I wonder how much development college pitchers really get. Most of it's done in the summer. Hitting, fielding, even short stint pitching, I see it. But long pitching outings where guys work through things are just something that the college game doesn't allow.

That's why so many high-talent guys never pan out in college but do in the minors.

Part of development is on the mental side….and that certainly happens in season in college. Making sure your mechanics and routine are repeatable enough to where you can bounce back from one bad pitch or AB. We don’t seem to have that right now. We have guys pressing and that only makes things worse.

The kind of development you are talking about is going to summer ball to work on a 3rd pitch, etc. That’s true that it doesn’t happen in the college season, but that’s not where our problems are right now.

 

[Perd Hapley]

Foxhall’s days have to be numbered here. If we aren’t any better than last year, we may have to call it a career for the entire staff.

But why fire the entire staff when its 1 guy out of 3 that is dragging down the whole operation? Lemonis and Gautreau aren’t the source of our issues right now.

 

[The Peeper]

Go back and watch the game on ESPN replay and tell me that is correct. Otherwise you are just "he said she said". The announcers even said during the game that it was a liberal stike zone.

"Liberal strike zone" means the ump is calling strikes off the plate. That's not what Powell said, he said the 2 middle relievers (Hardin & Davis) that got shelled were throwing the ball right down the middle because they didn't want to walk anyone. One of them lasted 1/3 of an inning, the other 2/3 of an inning. They gave up a combined 8 hits and 7 runs to 11 batters, all 7 runs earned.

 

[8dog]

That's a little over the top negative. Go check out our early 2016 schedule. The same things were being said about that team.

Ok. 7? 8? I’m not huge on “well remember what this team did”

I’ve watched last year and this year. And we are even worse than last year.

 

[eckie1]

But why fire the entire staff when its 1 guy out of 3 that is dragging down the whole operation? Lemonis and Gautreau aren’t the source of our issues right now.

Last season we had a lot of veteran position players that would never step up and lead the team. That’s on the big man AND Geautreau….

For example, LoTan was a super elite catcher that could have easily stepped up and been an example at the plate last season, but he didn’t. We didn’t have a guy that had a high percentage of getting a hit when it mattered, period. Even though the pitching is what got us in our jams.

We’ll see if that’s a problem again this year. Foxhall is the low hanging fruit, for sure.

 

[maroonmania]

Jay Powell said last night postgame on the radio that was the problem last night, throwing it right down the middle of the plate because they were told to throw strikes after all of the walks on Saturday.........

Unfortunately we didn't have a 10-1 lead last night.

 

[eckie1]

Jay Powell said last night postgame on the radio that was the problem last night, throwing it right down the middle of the plate because they were told to throw strikes after all of the walks on Saturday.........

…..which sounds like a certain member of our coaching staff, maybe one that handles pitchers, struck again?

 

[Perd Hapley]

Last season we had a lot of veteran position players that would never step up and lead the team. That’s on the big man AND Geautreau….

For example, LoTan was a super elite catcher that could have easily stepped up and been an example at the plate last season, but he didn’t. We didn’t have a guy that had a high percentage of getting a hit when it mattered, period. Even though the pitching is what got us in our jams.

We’ll see if that’s a problem again this year. Foxhall is the low hanging fruit, for sure.

We averaged pretty much the same number of runs per game (both overall and in conference play) in 2022 as we did in 2021. Hitting wasn’t the issue. We all would have liked LoTan to have a bigger year last year, but I don’t think you can hold one player not performing up to potential in one season as a major indictment against the coaching staff. The same staff lost the SEC player of the year in Tanner Allen, then turned around and got a near 100% production replacement in a transfer from Mercer.

As to guys not getting a hit when it mattered, I’d argue that perception is greatly skewed by the fact that the number of times that it mattered was greatly increased due to how terrible our pitching was. You’re not going to magically just have guys who hit .500 with 2 outs in the bottom of the ninth that otherwise hit .300. Doesn’t happen with hardly any player….and its not something you could coach to happen even if it was a regular occurrence.

 

[eckie1]

We averaged pretty much the same number of runs per game (both overall and in conference play) in 2022 as we did in 2021. Hitting wasn’t the issue. We all would have liked LoTan to have a bigger year last year, but I don’t think you can hold one player not performing up to potential in one season as a major indictment against the coaching staff. The same staff lost the SEC player of the year in Tanner Allen, then turned around and got a near 100% production replacement in a transfer from Mercer.

As to guys not getting a hit when it mattered, I’d argue that perception is greatly skewed by the fact that the number of times that it mattered was greatly increased due to how terrible our pitching was. You’re not going to magically just have guys who hit .500 with 2 outs in the bottom of the ninth that otherwise hit .300. Doesn’t happen with hardly any player….and its not something you could coach to happen even if it was a regular occurrence.

We started a ton of innings with 2 outs last season…. Lots of times we’d get a couple guys on base after, and would struggle to get them home.

I’m sure it’s demoralizing to have to hit that way, especially when you know that whomever is on the mound is guaranteed to blow it afterwards. But I don’t think our offense was free of blame, at all, last season.

We can agree that pitching is the biggest of our woes, overall…. If Foxhall doesn’t shape up, and I don’t think he will, he’ll be a goner.

Problem is, every season we manage to have a losing record is compounded by how quickly everybody else reloads (and how we used to). It’s incredibly hard to have an overall losing season in baseball in the SEC. You have to have bad coaching in every facet of the game for it to happen at most places…. Definitely here.

 

[Perd Hapley]

It’s incredibly hard to have an overall losing season in baseball in the SEC. You have to have bad coaching in every facet of the game for it to happen at most places…. Definitely here.

Nope….only takes one facet to make it happen. And it doesn’t even have to be bad coaching. We’ve had an overall losing record 5 times in the past 15 years, once every 3 years on average. And the reason has been the same every time - lack of pitching. In at least 3 of those years (2009, 2010, 2015), we had a 17ing outstanding pitching coach.

And honestly I think we’ve seen enough from Foxhall from 2019-2021 and his work at NC State to know he doesn’t totally suck either (although he’s no Butch). But if he’s starting to slip in his recruiting and/or getting complacent, he needs to go. He’s got 50ish games to figure something out.

 

[Ranchdawg]

A

"Liberal strike zone" means the ump is calling strikes off the plate. That's not what Powell said, he said the 2 middle relievers (Hardin & Davis) that got shelled were throwing the ball right down the middle because they didn't want to walk anyone. One of them lasted 1/3 of an inning, the other 2/3 of an inning. They gave up a combined 8 hits and 7 runs to 11 batters, all 7 runs earne

So you understand with liberal strike zone they were not throwing the ball right down the middle of the plate. Hardin's fastball doesn't break so he was right about him but the other pitchers were working the ball around and got hit too.

 

[BulldogBlitz]

What top recruit would want to come here the way the team is bashed constantly on the interwebs?

 

[ababyatemydingo]

What top recruit would want to come here the way the team is bashed constantly on the interwebs?

Stfu mamaw

 

[The Peeper]

A

So you understand with liberal strike zone they were not throwing the ball right down the middle of the plate. Hardin's fastball doesn't break so he was right about him but the other pitchers were working the ball around and got hit too.

8 of the 12 hits were from these 2 relievers and 2 from the starter scattered over 4 innings. Sorry but I'm taking the word of a former major league pitcher sitting behind the plate over yours that saw a few pitches from his living room

 

[Ranchdawg]

8 of the 12 hits were from these 2 relievers and 2 from the starter scattered over 4 innings. Sorry but I'm taking the word of a former major league pitcher sitting behind the plate over yours that saw a few pitches from his living room

I watched the entire game and every pitch. Why don't you go watch the replay for yourself and quit depending on others for your opinion? Personally, it is ok with me if you don't believe me. You just don't know what happened because you didn't watch.

 

[The Peeper]

I watched the entire game and every pitch. Why don't you go watch the replay for yourself and quit depending on others for your opinion? Personally, it is ok with me if you don't believe me. You just don't know what happened because you didn't watch.

Wrong again, I WAS THERE, as I am every game

 

[Ranchdawg]

Wrong again, I WAS THERE, as I am every game

Good! I'm happy you attended. So you aren't in a seat where you can see the pitches? Yesterday we struggled getting the ball over the plate again. I expected Cade to strike out the side in the first. Evidently, the GR rattled him and he didn't recover in the first.

 

[patdog]

But why fire the entire staff when its 1 guy out of 3 that is dragging down the whole operation? Lemonis and Gautreau aren’t the source of our issues right now.

If Foxhall is a problem, then we have 2 problems. Foxhall and the coach who hired him & retained him after a bad year.