What really is the point of expansion madness?

[18IsTheMan]

I get that it's about money. But that's about all I get. I am openly pleading ignorance on the topic and asking for those who are more knowledgeable to enlighten me. Again, I understand that money is the driving factor, but beyond that, what's the point of the expansion war between the conferences? The conferences are simply collections of schools, so it's not like they can "go out of business". Schools may move around from one conference to another and new conferences may even be created, but it's all the same schools.

If the Big 10 adds FSU, Clemson, Washington and Oregon, what's the SEC worried about? It's not going anywhere as a conference. So the Big 10 has more revenue right now...how many titles does it have recently? So Big 10 schools end up getting $65 million each as opposed to $55 million each. It's not like they're going to put Alabama out of business.

Is it simply bragging rights about which conference has greater revenue? Beyond that, I don't see implications. The schools are the schools and they aren't going anywhere. Again, nobody is putting anyone else out of business. You hear talk of the Big 12 or Pac 12 fighting for survival, but I don't really understand what that means because, once again, the conferences are just the schools. They jockey all around for tv markets and revenue but it's seems the money is just shifting around.

 

[Fried Chicken]

I wish we could go back to the old days…

12 Team SEC
9 Team ACC
Jefferson Pilot for the noon game

It felt a lot more fun back then.

That being said, I do disagree that it’s not about survival. At least survival at the level they are at or were once at. The Big 12 was at one time considered the best competition to the SEC in football. That conference is going to look like the old American Conference soon. Same for the PAC 12.

In my opinion, it’s all about positioning right now. College Football as we know it is entering its twilight years. There is going to be a major shift in the next 10 years. The SEC and Big 10 have secured their spots in that. But the teams in other conferences have not, and it appears they aren’t going to leave it to chance. Even if that means joining a conference that makes no sense geographically. This is all to assure when College Football changes, they don’t get left behind. And at this point, there are going to be some “major” programs left behind…thinking a team like Miami.

 

[Rogue Cock]

Don’t think Miami will be left behind at all….they may be the first or second team to jump. They are an AAU member and located in a hot bed of recruiting with an alumni base throughout the NE and MW…my guess would be the B1G. Seriously doubt the B1G even glances at Clemson…so it will be SEC or Big 12 for them.

 

[SSIGamecock]

Don’t think Miami will be left behind at all….they may be the first or second team to jump. They are an AAU member and located in a hot bed of recruiting with an alumni base throughout the NE and MW…my guess would be the B1G. Seriously doubt the B1G even glances at Clemson…so it will be SEC or Big 12 for them.

Can you imagine when this happens and Washington jumps in too. You have the Miami volleyball team traveling to Seattle for a weekend match. It's quite ridiculous, but I expect it to happen. Literally couldn't be further away (I realize Alaska and Hawaii are further, but they will never be in the top tier conferences).

Maybe Clempson jumps in too. Clempson has to travel to Euguen or Seattle the week before playing us and their all thrown out of wack with jetlag and weather and all. Makes me smile thinking of it.

 

[18IsTheMan]

I wish we could go back to the old days…

12 Team SEC
9 Team ACC
Jefferson Pilot for the noon game

It felt a lot more fun back then.

That being said, I do disagree that it’s not about survival. At least survival at the level they are at or were once at. The Big 12 was at one time considered the best competition to the SEC in football. That conference is going to look like the old American Conference soon. Same for the PAC 12.

In my opinion, it’s all about positioning right now. College Football as we know it is entering its twilight years. There is going to be a major shift in the next 10 years. The SEC and Big 10 have secured their spots in that. But the teams in other conferences have not, and it appears they aren’t going to leave it to chance. Even if that means joining a conference that makes no sense geographically. This is all to assure when College Football changes, they don’t get left behind. And at this point, there are going to be some “major” programs left behind…thinking a team like Miami.

But if the Big 12 ceases to exist, so what? The same schools who were in the Big 12 will just be playing football in another conference.

The schools and teams are always going to be there.

 

[Big JC]

It's all about tv money, nothing else. The ACC signed up for a bad long term tv deal and now they want to get out of it and they can't. The B1G thinks it can expand its way to being the dominant conference and, in turn, get a huge tv deal.

The reality is; college football became the great sport it is (was?) because of its regional nature and its rivalries. Conference realignment is destroying the very things that made college football great. ESPN and the other networks are trying to turn college football into the NFL and I don't think it is going to work. College football fans and NFL fans are looking for two different things in the games they watch.

In the end, I think college football is going to be (maybe already is) ruined and turned into something college football fans don't like anymore. Those fans will move on to other interests and will be lost forever. When that happens and viewership drops and the tv contracts shrink the colleges and the networks will be standing in a room pointing fingers at each other trying to assign blame.

 

[Rogue Cock]

Can you imagine when this happens and Washington jumps in too. You have the Miami volleyball team traveling to Seattle for a weekend match. It's quite ridiculous, but I expect it to happen. Literally couldn't be further away (I realize Alaska and Hawaii are further, but they will never be in the top tier conferences).

Maybe Clempson jumps in too. Clempson has to travel to Euguen or Seattle the week before playing us and their all thrown out of wack with jetlag and weather and all. Makes me smile thinking of it.

Clemson isn’t close to qualifying for B1G membership. They simply don’t have the academics or bring enough research money with them.

 

[Rogue Cock]

It's all about tv money, nothing else. The ACC signed up for a bad long term tv deal and now they want to get out of it and they can't. The B1G thinks it can expand its way to being the dominant conference and, in turn, get a huge tv deal.

The reality is; college football became the great sport it is (was?) because of its regional nature and its rivalries. Conference realignment is destroying the very things that made college football great. ESPN and the other networks are trying to turn college football into the NFL and I don't think it is going to work. College football fans and NFL fans are looking for two different things in the games they watch.

In the end, I think college football is going to be (maybe already is) ruined and turned into something college football fans don't like anymore. Those fans will move on to other interests and will be lost forever. When that happens and viewership drops and the tv contracts shrink the colleges and the networks will be standing in a room pointing fingers at each other trying to assign blame.

The B1G TV deal is already at $70M per team with the new additions. That’s more than any other conference payout.

Can’t disagree with your long term projection at all.

 

[will110]

I get that it's about money. But that's about all I get. I am openly pleading ignorance on the topic and asking for those who are more knowledgeable to enlighten me. Again, I understand that money is the driving factor, but beyond that, what's the point of the expansion war between the conferences? The conferences are simply collections of schools, so it's not like they can "go out of business". Schools may move around from one conference to another and new conferences may even be created, but it's all the same schools.

If the Big 10 adds FSU, Clemson, Washington and Oregon, what's the SEC worried about? It's not going anywhere as a conference. So the Big 10 has more revenue right now...how many titles does it have recently? So Big 10 schools end up getting $65 million each as opposed to $55 million each. It's not like they're going to put Alabama out of business.

Is it simply bragging rights about which conference has greater revenue? Beyond that, I don't see implications. The schools are the schools and they aren't going anywhere. Again, nobody is putting anyone else out of business. You hear talk of the Big 12 or Pac 12 fighting for survival, but I don't really understand what that means because, once again, the conferences are just the schools. They jockey all around for tv markets and revenue but it's seems the money is just shifting around.

It's the money, no more, no less.

The conferences only care about maximizing revenue. It's not about winning championships. It's not about putting the best product on the field. It's not about fans in the seats. It's not about what's best for the student athletes. All that matters is the almighty dollar.

 

[SSIGamecock]

Clemson isn’t close to qualifying for B1G membership. They simply don’t have the academics or bring enough research money with them.

I tend to disagree with you, but only time will tell! I do think if they don't get snagged by the B1G, they'll be left behind. Doesn't make sense for the SEC to go after them, considering adding UNC would completely overlap their market presence between UNC, UGA, UTjr, and USC, outside of a small bump in the huge metropolis of Greenville (I'm kidding clearly). The increase would be nominal compared to adding a VT or UVA and UNC

 

[Big JC]

The B1G TV deal is already at $70M per team with the new additions. That’s more than any other conference payout.

Can’t disagree with your long term projection at all.

Even with all that money, the B1G is still pretty much a two team conference.

 

[Rogue Cock]

Even with all that money, the B1G is still pretty much a two team conference.

More often than not so is the SEC…right now it’s UGA and Bama.

 

[Big JC]

I tend to disagree with you, but only time will tell! I do think if they don't get snagged by the B1G, they'll be left behind. Doesn't make sense for the SEC to go after them, considering adding UNC would completely overlap their market presence between UNC, UGA, UTjr, and USC, outside of a small bump in the huge metropolis of Greenville (I'm kidding clearly). The increase would be nominal compared to adding a VT or UVA and UNC

I don't think the NC or VA market is that big for football. Basketball is the sport that those states bring to the table.

Sadly, Clemson probably brings more viewers from the state of SC than USC does.

 

[Fried Chicken]

Can you imagine when this happens and Washington jumps in too. You have the Miami volleyball team traveling to Seattle for a weekend match. It's quite ridiculous, but I expect it to happen. Literally couldn't be further away (I realize Alaska and Hawaii are further, but they will never be in the top tier conferences).

Maybe Clempson jumps in too. Clempson has to travel to Euguen or Seattle the week before playing us and their all thrown out of wack with jetlag and weather and all. Makes me smile thinking of it.

It won’t stay that way for long, for reasons you just said. Eventually I believe you’ll see College Football become it’s on entity, with it’s own governing body. It’ll be about 60 teams, which is why teams are shuffling. To make sure they are in that 60.

the rest of College sports won’t be able to continue to long trips across country and we’ll likely see multiple conference affiliations based on particular sports. Sort of like when we were in the SEC, but Conference USA for soccer.

 

[18IsTheMan]

It's the money, no more, no less.

The conferences only care about maximizing revenue. It's not about winning championships. It's not about putting the best product on the field. It's not about fans in the seats. It's not about what's best for the student athletes. All that matters is the almighty dollar.

So is it basically bragging rights? People panic if Big 10 teams get $10 million more in payout at the end of the season than SEC schools.

Why?

 

[Big JC]

More often than not so is the SEC…right now it’s UGA and Bama.

LSU and UT are pretty strong right now too. Most years, the SEC has about 4 teams that can win the conference.

 

[Fried Chicken]

More often than not so is the SEC…right now it’s UGA and Bama.

Bama didn’t even win the West last year. LSU isn’t 5 years removed from a National Championship. What??

Every individual year 2-3 teams rise to the top of each conference. But if there is one thing we’ve learned from the past 15 years of College Football is that the SEC has tremendous depth as far as teams that can contend. Auburn is down, but they’ll get back up and have played in 2 title games in that 15 year span.

National Champs during that span:
- Florida
- Bama
- Auburn
- Georgia
- LSU

no other conference even comes close to that.

 

[Big JC]

It won’t stay that way for long, for reasons you just said. Eventually I believe you’ll see College Football become it’s on entity, with it’s own governing body. It’ll be about 60 teams, which is why teams are shuffling. To make sure they are in that 60.

the rest of College sports won’t be able to continue to long trips across country and we’ll likely see multiple conference affiliations based on particular sports. Sort of like when we were in the SEC, but Conference USA for soccer.

Interesting take. I'm not sure how that would work.

 

[will110]

So is it basically bragging rights? People panic if Big 10 teams get $10 million more in payout at the end of the season than SEC schools.

Why?

No it's not even bragging rights. That's for the fans. That's what we're focused on. All the conference leaders care about is making more money, like any business does. Walmart tries to maximize revenue every year; that's what the conferences are doing.

They try to hide the ball by talking about competitiveness and championships and the like, but none of that actually matters. If it did, then Southern California and UCLA would still be in the Pac12. Neither of those schools will ever win anything in the B1G, but they moved despite the logistical challenges and competition upgrade. Same thing for Texas and Oklahoma.

 

[Rogue Cock]

LSU and UT are pretty strong right now too. Most years, the SEC has about 4 teams that can win the conference.

And in the B1G you’ve had Wisconsin, Michigan State and Penn State all in competition. Both conferences have teams capable of winning the conference on a given year.

 

[SSIGamecock]

I don't think the NC or VA market is that big for football. Basketball is the sport that those states bring to the table.

Sadly, Clemson probably brings more viewers from the state of SC than USC does.

But how many of those clempson fans watch every South Carolina game? The bars definitely have our games on, and NC and VA definitely have way more people that the Clempsno fan base spreads. That's bars, and markets all over those states, rather than a portion of our state that leans more heavily towards Clempson.

 

[18IsTheMan]

No it's not even bragging rights. That's for the fans. That's what we're focused on. All the conference leaders care about is making more money, like any business does. Walmart tries to maximize revenue every year; that's what the conferences are doing.

They try to hide the ball by talking about competitiveness and championships and the like, but none of that actually matters. If it did, then Southern California and UCLA would still be in the Pac12. Neither of those schools will ever win anything in the B1G, but they moved despite the logistical challenges and competition upgrade. Same thing for Texas and Oklahoma.

So from a business perspective then, say Michigan gets a $60 million payout and Bama gets a $50 million payout. Why does that $10 million difference in payout matter? College athletic departments are, after all, not for profit. They don't have owners, stakeholders etc who are looking to increase profits.

 

[Rogue Cock]

double post

 

[Big JC]

And in the B1G you’ve had Wisconsin, Michigan State and Penn State all in competition. Both conferences have teams capable of winning the conference on a given year.

Wisconsin and MichSt are not really competitors for the championship, they are the NC States of the B1G, lots of preseason hype but never follow through. Pedo State really isn't anymore either. Franklin is an affirmative action hire and they aren't going to beat OSU or Mich for the championship.

 

[Big JC]

But how many of those clempson fans watch every South Carolina game? The bars definitely have our games on, and NC and VA definitely have way more people that the Clempsno fan base spreads. That's bars, and markets all over those states, rather than a portion of our state that leans more heavily towards Clempson.

How many USC fans watch every clemson game? Bars have their games on too. From what I've read, the SEC is happy at 16 teams and isn't looking to go after any more. I think the SEC is too big now, 12 was a good number and the schools were regionally together and there were a lot of good rivalries. What traditional SEC schools have any sort of rivalry with Texas, OK, Missouri or Texas A&M?

 

[will110]

So from a business perspective then, say Michigan gets a $60 million payout and Bama gets a $50 million payout. Why does that $10 million difference in payout matter? College athletic departments are, after all, not for profit. They don't have owners, stakeholders etc who are looking to increase profits.

You're answering the question, at least in my opinion. It's an extra $10 million.

Perhaps I'm oversimplifying things, but I just see it as a race for the most money. Rather than focusing on what we would want them to focus on - the actual product on the field, competitive balance, etc. - they're just focused on maximizing revenue.

 

[Rogue Cock]

I tend to disagree with you, but only time will tell! I do think if they don't get snagged by the B1G, they'll be left behind. Doesn't make sense for the SEC to go after them, considering adding UNC would completely overlap their market presence between UNC, UGA, UTjr, and USC, outside of a small bump in the huge metropolis of Greenville (I'm kidding clearly). The increase would be nominal compared to adding a VT or UVA and UNC

In the B1G academics are the tail that wags the dog. The BTAA controls over $1B annually in research funding that it distributes to member schools. If you can’t carry your weight and add to that pool of money, you aren’t going to get an invite. That’s why all but one B1G member is an AAU member and the one that isn’t was at the time of its joining. Clemson simply does not bring that with them.

 

[Rogue Cock]

Wisconsin and MichSt are not really competitors for the championship, they are the NC States of the B1G, lots of preseason hype but never follow through. Pedo State really isn't anymore either. Franklin is an affirmative action hire and they aren't going to beat OSU or Mich for the championship.

Okay.

 

[18IsTheMan]

You're answering the question, at least in my opinion. It's an extra $10 million.

Perhaps I'm oversimplifying things, but I just see it as a race for the most money. Rather than focusing on what we would want them to focus on - the actual product on the field, competitive balance, etc. - they're just focused on maximizing revenue.

I suppose it's that way for the whole shebang, like playoff expansion.

It's not about giving other teams a shot, not even 0.5% about that. It's about money.

I'm still not sure I grasp the extra revenue aspect, though, for not-for-profit entities.

 

[SSIGamecock]

How many USC fans watch every clemson game? Bars have their games on too. From what I've read, the SEC is happy at 16 teams and isn't looking to go after any more. I think the SEC is too big now, 12 was a good number and the schools were regionally together and there were a lot of good rivalries. What traditional SEC schools have any sort of rivalry with Texas, OK, Missouri or Texas A&M?

Yes - USC fans have the Clempson game on, but the revenue added includes maybe 2-3MM people into the SEC where North Carolina and Virginia add 10 million and 8.5 million respectively that are not being touched.

 

[Harvard Gamecock]

One shouldn't really complain when the SEC was part of the race to the top. It was universally celebrated when the SEC announced they were in partnership with ESPN to launch their own network, and many on here were mocking, notably Clemson how much more money we were going receive compared to their revenue.

 

[Yard_Pimps]

Don’t think Miami will be left behind at all….they may be the first or second team to jump. They are an AAU member and located in a hot bed of recruiting with an alumni base throughout the NE and MW…my guess would be the B1G. Seriously doubt the B1G even glances at Clemson…so it will be SEC or Big 12 for them.

I think you put WAY too much emphasis on the AAU aspect. There has been way to much smoke about Clemson to the big 10 for me to think they haven’t glanced. Even going all the way back to 2013.

 

[Yard_Pimps]

Yes - USC fans have the Clempson game on, but the revenue added includes maybe 2-3MM people into the SEC where North Carolina and Virginia add 10 million and 8.5 million respectively that are not being touched.

I’m sorry but tv ratings for the teams currently do not back this up. In streaming it’s not about markets. ESPN use to care about markets because their channel was included in all cable packages. You had to pay for it. So it was advantageous to have your markets in the highly populated areas. That’s not going to be the case in 10 years. Espn won’t be on cable it will be a subscription to watch sports period. Most are predicting that that fee will have to be in the $30 range for espn to survive status quo when they go solely to streaming. That is coming.

IF and that’s a big if espn were continue to lose money the sec will be screwed.

 

[Rogue Cock]

I think you put WAY to much emphasis on the AAU aspect.

Because the B1G schools do. The research funding the schools receive from the BTAA is a good bit more than what they receive from their TV deal.

And these are ACADEMIC institutions whose Presidents and Boards will be making these decisions not the athletic departments or the athlete conference.

 

[SSIGamecock]

I’m sorry but tv ratings for the teams currently do not back this up. In streaming it’s not about markets. ESPN use to care about markets because their channel was included in all cable packages. You had to pay for it. So it was advantageous to have your markets in the highly populated areas. That’s not going to be the case in 10 years. Espn won’t be on cable it will be a subscription to watch sports period. Most are predicting that that fee will have to be in the $30 range for espn to survive status quo when they go solely to streaming. That is coming.

IF and that’s a big if espn were continue to lose money the sec will be screwed.

why are you sorry?

 

[Yard_Pimps]

Because the B1G schools do. The research funding the schools receive from the BTAA is a good bit more than what they receive from their TV deal.

And these are ACADEMIC institutions whose Presidents and Boards will be making these decisions not the athletic departments or the athlete conference.

I get that but also believe what’s good for the goose is good for the gander.


With that said I believe the president of the B1G has states being a member of the aau is not required in the bylaws. So I get what you’re saying but these are unprecedented times and the big ten has a chance to firmly place themselves in the south with good brands. Of which all that have been mentioned are working to be in the AAU including Clemson.

I’m not trying to defend Clemson just don’t think not taking them is as concrete as you make it sound solely on AAU principle.

 

[Yard_Pimps]

why are you sorry?

Sorry because they don’t support the claim. That can bust some people’s bubbles. It’s just an expression.

 

[Rogue Cock]

I get that but also believe what’s good for the goose is good for the gander.


With that said I believe the president of the B1G has states being a member of the aau is not required in the bylaws. So I get what you’re saying but these are unprecedented times and the big ten has a chance to firmly place themselves in the south with good brands. Of which all that have been mentioned are working to be in the AAU including Clemson.

I’m not trying to defend Clemson just don’t think not taking them is as concrete as you make it sound solely on AAU principle.

We will see….but they would be going against a long history. FSU I can understand because they barely missed receiving AAU membership a month or so ago. Clemson has said they have a 10 year strategy and they are a long way from achieving it….we also had plans to achieve AAU status when Palms was President.

 

[SSIGamecock]

Sorry because they don’t support the claim. That can bust some people’s bubbles. It’s just an expression.

Agree to disagree, the data my back up your point, but there are a lot of current intangibles, similar to the end of your post regarding 5-10 years in the future for ESPN, etc.

I hope I'm not being misunderstood for not wanting Clempson in the SEC. I just don't think financially it will make sense. I'd love for Clempson to join the SEC - they currently contend for national titles without playing anywhere close to a top 25 schedule. That's a pretty easy recruiting pitch. Come to the SEC, yeah, they'll have the SEC pitch, but our schedule gets easier every year (we will essentially gain an easier non conference game) and theirs gets much more difficult by replacing the following games with the ones listed:

Tier 1: FSU/ND - Bama/Georgia
Tier 2: NCST/UNC/Miami- LSU/Tennessee/Oklahoma
Tier 3 Syracuse/Wake/Pitt/VT - A&M/Ole Miss/Texas
Tier 4 Duke/UVA/Louisville/BC/Gt - Kentucky/Miss St/Auburn/Mizzou/Vandy

 

[Lurker123]

We will see….but they would be going against a long history. FSU I can understand because they barely missed receiving AAU membership a month or so ago. Clemson has said they have a 10 year strategy and they are a long way from achieving it….we also had plans to achieve AAU status when Palms was President.

I remember looking into that 10 year plan. Do all schools list that as a target? I was always wondering Ilif it was the excuse that will be used for a potential invite, or if it's typical, shoot for the moon type of talk.