When Does Ray Get Credit?
- Thread starter Cocky Hobbit
- Start date
Ray is a good AD. Yes, the Muschamp hire was a bad one, but that move appears to have been rectified.
Ray can be impugned for not hiring Beamer when he hired Muschamp. His ties to the university already existed and he was just as employable then as he was four years later. Ray set the program back years by betting on the wrong horse. That assumes that the hiring was Ray's to make and not that of whoever had his hand up the back of Ray's suit.
As posted in earlier discussions....rookie move, as was the insane buyout.
Mike McGee hired fat Brad.....then hired Lou & Steve.
I wouldn't trade Ray right now.
No, I don't sell a stock when it's high, either. But this one is on the watch list and might prove fungible. Beamer is about to enter his third season and indicators are good. Validation is yet to be established but certainly will be within the next two years. Still, what was lost during those four years is lost forever.
Muschamp's buyout was indeed insane. And so was Frank Martin's buyout. Both huge missteps. And both of those buyouts together caused USC to go on the cheap when finding replacements for both. Fortunately it looks like Beamer is going to pan out (though so did muschump after two seasons) - we'll see how Paris does in year 2, this last year doesn't really count in my book given the timing/cirmcumstances of his start at USC. But really, those last two searches were more about finding a coach for the "right price" instead of trying to find the "right coach" (the candidates for the basketball job made that clear). And that's 100% on Ray and how he bungled the first 8 years of his time at USC.
Add in Holbrook, and Ray is probably going to erect a statue of Dawn Staley himself for at least giving USC fans something to cheer for while the big 3 sports were flailing.
All that said, the last two years have been very promising. Hopefully USC keeps moving up in all sports and Ray can be celebrated for his administrative career as he is for his coaching career. But he's got a long way to go.
That's making a lot of assumptions about Beamer's development as a coach. One has to assume Beamer learned a thing or two from coaching under Kirby and Riley. Those are experiences he would not have had if we had hired him instead of Muschamp. I would argue that hiring Beamer in 2016 would have produced poor results since his development as a coach was not as far along, much like bumping a kid from A ball to MLB before his ready and killing his development. He would have been dismissed after a few years, then what? The Muschamp hire was a bad one, but it led us to Beamer at the right time in his development as a coach. So I don't see the Muschamp hire as setting back at all. Indeed, if anything, it put us where we needed to be at just the right time to hire just the right coach.
Holbrook was a fantastic hire. It was an absolute no-brainer at the time. Anyone who says otherwise, simply wasn't following the game at the time. Should he have been let go sooner than he was? I don't know. He was let go after Year 5. This is Year 5 for Kingston and we see the results he's producing, so that give some justification for giving Holbrook 5 years. Up to this year, there was nothing Kingston had done that made us think we could be a top 5 team.
Since an important part of the AD's responsibilities is to hobnob with large donors, his success on the diamond has given him a leg up.
That is an excellent analysis regarding the timing of hiring Beamer.
I'm not a Ray hater, but a lot of what you have on this list shouldn't be credited to him. His job, like already articulated by previous posters, is to hire the right people and then give them the support they need to succeed.
1. Beamer - looks like he's on the right track, but the jury is still out. Muschamp was a success after two seasons.
2. Kingston - a very underwhelming hire when it was made, with little to show for it. 2023 is a huge success, but that success must continue. Baseball was our premier program until Dawn turned WBB into a national power. One successful season for Carolina baseball doesn't make Kingston an incredible hire.
3. Frank - firing Frank was a debacle that took over a year to finalize
3.5 - Paris - the jury is clearly still out. We just had one of the worst seasons in decades with one of the best recruits in school history.
4. WBB - elite for sure. Tanner gets credit for keeping Dawn, but he didn't hire her.
5. Facilities - Partial credit, like others have mentioned Hyman did a lot to make these improvements happen.
6. Palmetto Cup - Tanner hired the coaches who won the games, but ultimately does anyone actually care about the Palmetto Cup? All that matters is football, MBB, baseball, and WBB to an extent.
7. Attendance - Is this Tanner? Seems like this is Gamecock Nation being excited about positive results and supporting the teams. Give him credit for marketing and ticket discounts.
8. National brand - Has any of this changed in the last decade? I haven't seen Williams Brice called the "loudest stadium in America" on a regular basis by anyone. Success in football will result in a better atmosphere.
9. Top 5 recruiting - he hired Beamer, but he's not recruiting anyone.
10. Landing 5 star recruits - Tanner isn't recruiting anyone.
11. Coast to coast recruiting - Really? All of our current commitments are from the east coast. We have 4 guys on the roster from west of the Mississippi (3 from Texas, Rattler from Arizona). That's hardly coast to coast.
12. Professionals - has NOTHING to do with Tanner
13. Justin King - Fantastic hire.
14. Out recruiting Bama, UGA, Ohio State - We've won some individual battles, but each of these teams are ranked ahead of us in recruiting rankings. Ultimately nothing to do with Tanner.
15. Recruiting SC - nothing to do with Tanner.
It seems that you just thought of every positive about Carolina athletics and listed it as something that Tanner caused. Ultimately, Tanner is going to get too much blame when things are going poorly and too much credit when things go well. The individual successes or failures for each sport can't be credited to Tanner, good or bad.
Eric Hyman has been gone from Columbia, SC since 2012, over ten years. Hyman certainly gets credit for the initial ruffling of the old guard's feathers and setting a facilities plan in place. But to give Hyman all the credit for the last 10 years is long way from reality. If I misread your post, my apologies.
And that will be forever as long as people want to keep kicking dead horses.
It's not how you begin, it's how you finish that counts. Ray is trending up.
Well, that's Tanner. Could have been at least one more year of Shane. Then we would be one year closer to having the definitive picture on him.5....Muschamp should have been fired in 2019.
Nothing unreasonable has been projected. Beamer grew up a successful coach's son and always had the recruiting chops. Recruiting is his primary contribution now. His cultural prowess is a product of who he is and contributes to the recruiting chops. These qualities were evident his first time through here.
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Apology accepted. While I'm thinking about it, I would add that our most successful current program - by a wide margin - started with Hyman.
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By his own admission, he learned a great deal from Kirby and Riley.
Things are looking better but the last 5 years in the 3 biggest sports, our best season has been a 8-5 football season with a Gator Bowl loss. That or a 2020 first round baseball exit. It looks like this baseball season could be our best in those three sports but until that happens you still cannot say our sports have been stellar because they have not been. Not even close.
Hiring failed Florida headcoach Will Muschamp as HC here was much much MUCH deeper then just a rookie mistake!!!!!!! Has Ray ever went in TV explaining what was going through his head then? Was he on meds? Drugs?
I was baffled by the hire like most people. And still am.
I was baffled by the hire like most people. And still am.
Tanner had a list of top coaching prospects ready (like all well prepared AD's) and after careful analysis hired Muschamp - NOT!
YES - He made a panic hire!
The pinheads will continue to hate on Ray until he fires Calvi.
To a degree how you finish is important, but really careers are measured by a body of work, not the end. (Which is why Spurrier is the best ever at USC even if he tailed off at the end.)
The upward swing is definitely nice, but right now it’s more of a blip than a trend. As I’d imagine that if Kingston had a repeat of last year this season, then he’d be on the chopping block along with Ray. Fortunately for everyone (including us fans), there’s a record-breaking freshman that is making it look like USC baseball could be back.
Well he had three others until UT, OU and UGA chose to throw their hat in the ring….we weren’t beating out those teams, especially when two of them were the coaches’ dream job.
Well, that’s your opinion. But Spurrier disagreed as he recommended Muschamp. He had wanted Muschamp as his DC the last couple of years but didn’t want to get rid of any other defensive coaches which Muschamp wanted to do.
Did you even follow all the machinations of Spurriers last few years?
When that was announced, I felt like I just lost someone. All I could do is remain positive and feel helpless.
All proteges say that. Doesn't mean he wasn't ready to go anywhere from one to five years sooner.
When does Ray get Credit?
My answer to the question:
A a lot of bad trends happened since he took over in 2012, he has had over a decade to learn on the job. I don't think any of the mistakes can be just thrown out now and forgotten like some have suggested.
Its not time to tear into Ray, anymore, and be negative nellies, and he deserves some credit for the recent success, but we need consistency in the men's sports, the recent trends are encouraging and definitely in the right direction, for baseball and football. Men's sports have had their moments before under Tanner, before faltering. Their was the final 4 run in the 2017 tournament, and it was a aberration. Muschamp had a successful second year followed by not so great years.
Ray got his money, and his extension and the teams are beating Clemson and trending upward in football and baseball and I believe, Ray and our teams have clearly benefited from more turnover at Clemson as his fellow rival AD at Clemson seems to now be the one learning to on the job, and clearly not at the same level of Dan Radakovich.
Its not a time to tear him down, as these positive trends are great but need to continue in baseball and football, a trip to Omaha or more under Ray's leadership as AD will be a great sign, and Beamer needs to keep progressing as it appears he is continuing to do, its great we beat Clemson, but they did beat us 7 years in a row before that, so is one win equal and enough to wipe out the 7 year losing streak? Some say yes, I say no. But show consistency, win a few more against Clemson in football in a row, then its safe to assume we are fielding pretty good teams year in and year out, then you can start asking for the credit given to match the level of the disgruntlement and criticism shown during most of his tenure, which was also well deserved given how consistently bad things were for periods of time.
My answer to the question:
A a lot of bad trends happened since he took over in 2012, he has had over a decade to learn on the job. I don't think any of the mistakes can be just thrown out now and forgotten like some have suggested.
Its not time to tear into Ray, anymore, and be negative nellies, and he deserves some credit for the recent success, but we need consistency in the men's sports, the recent trends are encouraging and definitely in the right direction, for baseball and football. Men's sports have had their moments before under Tanner, before faltering. Their was the final 4 run in the 2017 tournament, and it was a aberration. Muschamp had a successful second year followed by not so great years.
Ray got his money, and his extension and the teams are beating Clemson and trending upward in football and baseball and I believe, Ray and our teams have clearly benefited from more turnover at Clemson as his fellow rival AD at Clemson seems to now be the one learning to on the job, and clearly not at the same level of Dan Radakovich.
Its not a time to tear him down, as these positive trends are great but need to continue in baseball and football, a trip to Omaha or more under Ray's leadership as AD will be a great sign, and Beamer needs to keep progressing as it appears he is continuing to do, its great we beat Clemson, but they did beat us 7 years in a row before that, so is one win equal and enough to wipe out the 7 year losing streak? Some say yes, I say no. But show consistency, win a few more against Clemson in football in a row, then its safe to assume we are fielding pretty good teams year in and year out, then you can start asking for the credit given to match the level of the disgruntlement and criticism shown during most of his tenure, which was also well deserved given how consistently bad things were for periods of time.
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Yes, he has always been a good recruiter as far as we now. I think it's a disservice to him as a head coach to say that's his primary contribution now. From hearing him speak, I think he does well coaching in all aspects of the game and running a program.
Since he has been here, he has spoken frankly, deliberately and from the heart (find your joy!) so I tend to believe him when he says things. It's not reasonable to believe he did not develop and learn as a coach in the 5 years he was at UGA and OU. You'd have to suspend reality to accept that notion. On top of that, there was significant skepticism among the fan base when we hired him late in 2020, most citing his inexperience. How much louder would the cries have been if we'd hired 5 years earlier, with 5 fewer years experience?
The premise is based purely on the speculation that Beamer in 2016 would have managed to turn in the same success at the same rate as Beamer in 2021. It's just not reasonable to believe that.
ok, that makes sense. I know Spurrier kind of gave his blessing on Muschamp. But Spurrier was also packing to move back to Florida and at the time and didn’t care. Lol
Typical fan comment. ADs do much more than simply hire coaches. In fact, among the major sports most ADs rarely get the chance to hire 2 coaches, especially in football in the SEC. I can’t think of a single idea or plan that was his that he implemented that most feel was “smart.”
I can’t think of a real money maker that he dreamt up. He has benefited entirely from Hyman’s plan and SEC money. He’s lucky like a Kennedy or Hilton grandchild.
I’m not aware of a single improvement at one of our major venues that wasn’t initially part of Hyman’s plan.
He may be the nicest guy around, but he is way out over his skis as an AD at a major program. Unless we higher his 2nd in command, we will instantly be much better when he’s gone. As stated previously, he’s the Buttigieg of ADs.
We need consistency in all sports, regardless of gender, and regardless of how many of us follow any one sport.