When Will the PIAA Finally Adopt College Boundary Rules
- Thread starter PSUHammering1
- Start date
That and the danger rule! Those two things would change matches for the better. Less reckless ankle diving, more converted takedowns, and better edge action.
You really should learn a bit about the process before spouting off. The PIAA has no control over when or if the college boundary rules will be adopted. The rules are set by the NFHS. The PIAA can make minor (very minor) tweaks to the NFHS rules for PA, but nothing as big as changing the boundary rules.
And as I indicated previously in another thread, the boundary rules have been modified a good bit by the NFHS in the past decade to come somewhat close to the college rules. Each time a change was made, the NFHS gave some indication as to why it was made, and what the issues were that prevented them from going fully to the college rules. Having read and listened to their reasoning, I think it's pretty sound.
But pontificate all you want about something that makes very little difference in most HS matches.
Okay you got me on the rules committee but I strongly disagree that it would make little difference in HS matches. It would make a world of difference!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And modified to come somewhat close...what kind of BS is that - either it's the same or it isn't. If the boundary line isn't used as THE definitive determinate then it's still subjective.
Not make a difference? During the finals almost every match had point scoring that would have counted with sensible college out of bound rules. Seems more than obvious and noted by announcers as well. Danger rule seems like another no brainer. Why teach kids that lying flat on your back is a great way to counter a takedown during ankle diving sequence. Refs would love the change!
Tom likes to crap on all my posts. On some occasions he makes some good points on others he's out to lunch.
I just find it hilarious how aggressively rude some of the site people are towards their own customers. The lack of professionalism is comical at times
there is absolutely no requirement that the NFHS rules have to be identical to the college rules. In fact, in most sports, there are variations between the HS rules and the college rules. So keeping that in mind, it's kind of stunning to me that anyone thinks that the rules for HS and for college should be identical.
The biggest issue, IMHO, with the boundary line in HS wrestling was for pins and for NF. It used to be that you could not pin a wrestler, or get NF, if the defensive wrestler's back/shoulder blades were outside the line. That has been changed. As long as there are two support points within or on the line (looking at both the defensive and the offensive wrestlers support points), then it's now possible to pin or get NF points in HS. That was a huge change, and it's improved HS wrestling.
As for TDs, I don't get what the problem is with the HS rules. If the offensive wrestler hits a double and the defensive wrestler lands completely OOB, and the offensive wrestler lands basically OOB, the offensive wrestler is still given a chance to bring their toes/feet, which were in the air, down, and if both land in or on the line, then it's a TD, unless the defensive wrestler is off the mat. Beyond that, the difference is:
college - if one supporting point is inside of or on the line when control is established, it's a TD
HS - if two supporting points (can be 2 from def wrestler, 2 from off wrestler, or 1 from each) are inside of or on the line when control is established, it's a TD
There are differences in hand-touch TDs between HS and college, and college does have danger zone TDs which are not part of HS, but neither of those are boundary area issues, so they're not germane to your complaint.
In my earlier response, I indicated that the NFHS, when it made changes to pins/NFs/TDs with regards to the boundary line, they also provided some explanation for their changes. They are fully cognizant that a lot of schools (and keep in mind that HS rules are also middle school rules, with the exception of weight classes and the length of periods) do not have a lot of space where they wrestle. Many of those schools use smaller mats, or mats that have a small apron on them. Expanding the apron by adopting college rules is a problem in places where the edge of the mat is against the wall, or the mat has a small apron. And the NFHS is unlikely to adopt rules that force schools to buy new (and bigger) mats, or find new places to hold matches that have enough space for an expanded apron. Those issues are not prevalent at States, or in many HS gyms. But the NFHS doesn't differentiate between what can take place in big arenas and what can take place in postage-stamp size rooms. The NFHS rules have to be standard across the board.
As for your last sentence, I have no clue what your point is. Feel free to clarify that.
The earlier discussion had nothing to do with danger rules, so that's not relevant. As for refs, there are rules that some refs are not big fans of, but refs quickly learn to forget about what they wish the rule was. They are paid to enforce the rules as they are written. I certainly can't speak for all refs in terms of what rule changes they would or would not like. Amongst high school refs that I speak with (which is a large group, some of whom were on the mats at Hershey at this year's States), I don't think I've ever heard one of them say that they wish the danger rule was added to high school. Perhaps the guys that ref both college and HS may feel that way, but I can't recall ever talking to them about whether they'd like to see the danger rule in HS.
Danger rule would allow higher scoring via more takedowns and back points. And it would improve preparation for college to the lucky wrestlers who move forward. Just a common sense change, and one that helps the participants!
Well, it appears that Willie agrees with you:
But let's look closer at the picture. The defensive wrestler has his left hand and left knee (or foot) outside the boundary line. His right knee is either on the boundary line (which would make it inbounds), or in the air above the boundary line which would make it inbounds but it would no longer be a supporting point). The defensive wrestler's right arm is in a whizzer, so it's not a supporting point. So the defensive wrestler is OOB. However, the offensive wrestler's left knee is on the boundary line, and his right knee is well inside of the boundary line. And what is the HS rule: "Contestants are considered to be inbounds if the supporting points of either wrestler are inside or on the boundary line." The offensive wrestler has two supporting points inside or on the boundary line, so despite what the ref is signaling, these wrestlers are inbounds at the time of the pic.
If you ref enough matches, you'll make a mistake on a boundary line. It's inevitable. Part of the problem is that you can't exclusively focus on the supporting points, as you have to monitor the defender's knee to make sure it's not put in a potentially dangerous position, as well as monitor the hands to make sure nothing illegal takes place with them. That this call was made at PIAA States (in the final no less) is frustrating, as you don't get to do States as a ref unless you have a long track record of doing an excellent job. I should note in defense of the ref that still photos are always dangerous to draw too much of a conclusion from in wrestling. It's quite possible that just before the picture was taken that the offensive wrestler's left knee was OOB, and that he had pulled it back on to the boundary line just before the pic was taken.
But let's look closer at the picture. The defensive wrestler has his left hand and left knee (or foot) outside the boundary line. His right knee is either on the boundary line (which would make it inbounds), or in the air above the boundary line which would make it inbounds but it would no longer be a supporting point). The defensive wrestler's right arm is in a whizzer, so it's not a supporting point. So the defensive wrestler is OOB. However, the offensive wrestler's left knee is on the boundary line, and his right knee is well inside of the boundary line. And what is the HS rule: "Contestants are considered to be inbounds if the supporting points of either wrestler are inside or on the boundary line." The offensive wrestler has two supporting points inside or on the boundary line, so despite what the ref is signaling, these wrestlers are inbounds at the time of the pic.
If you ref enough matches, you'll make a mistake on a boundary line. It's inevitable. Part of the problem is that you can't exclusively focus on the supporting points, as you have to monitor the defender's knee to make sure it's not put in a potentially dangerous position, as well as monitor the hands to make sure nothing illegal takes place with them. That this call was made at PIAA States (in the final no less) is frustrating, as you don't get to do States as a ref unless you have a long track record of doing an excellent job. I should note in defense of the ref that still photos are always dangerous to draw too much of a conclusion from in wrestling. It's quite possible that just before the picture was taken that the offensive wrestler's left knee was OOB, and that he had pulled it back on to the boundary line just before the pic was taken.
This supports the desire of many to see the HS rule changed to reflect that of college rule which keeps the action/scoring continuing as long as any part of either wrestler is inside (or touching) the circle (even in space above the circle). In addition to making the wrestling more exciting (especially with smaller mats), this would also result in a huge burden removed from the refs - as to your points discussed above on supporting points of wrestlers. I think we all just want to see wrestling of all forms more exciting and more consistent and more fan-friendly as well.
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