Wow just Wow. The stomach Pin
- Thread starter Sunshinedynomite 1
- Start date
I hope the ref said "My bad," everyone had a little chuckle and moved on with life. It would be a shame if the ref couldn't swallow his pride and admit his mistake. Mistakes happen. I've never reffed, but I've often thought that a ref must start getting almost dizzy after reffing 100s of matches in a short period of time. Not an excuse for the mistake. You admit it, get the kids wrestling again, and move on.
Even Angel Rivera gets that one right, I'm pretty sure.
I don't recognize the ref, and haven't heard through the ref grapevine about the incident in question, so I can't speak specifically to it, or what happened afterwards (other than from the video, it seems obvious that the ref blew the call).
To some of the other points you raise:
1. "It would be a shame if the ref couldn't swallow his pride and admit his mistake."
- that's a little more nuanced than might think. Every single tournament I ref, there are coaches that tell me I don't know the rules, or tell me to get the calls correct, etc. 99.99999% of the time, they are the ones that are mistaken, and are simply speaking from emotion. So you tend to disregard a lot of what coaches say. I don't think I've ever changed a call based on something that a coach said to me. But then again, I'm 100% certain that I've never blown a call like what was shown in the linked video. Refs do replay sequences in their mind; that's part of the learning process, and how you get better. Most of the changes I've made are things like where the table totally screws up the score, particularly in youth where you can have a TD, then 3 NF, then a reversal, then 2 NF, then an esc, then a TD, then another reversal, etc. in a 45 sec. period. The coach will question the score, so then you have to go to the table and work through the entire sequence of events from memory, and correct whatever mistakes they've made.
2. "Mistakes happen. I've never reffed, but I've often thought that a ref must start getting almost dizzy after reffing 100s of matches in a short period of time."
- I wouldn't call it dizzying, but I'm in very good shape. In tournaments, you get mental fatigue. I've done things like raised a kids hand as the winner after the 2nd period, or forgotten who had choice in the 3rd period when I had just flipped for it a minute ago, etc. Those are things that you can easily correct, and I always apologize and indicate that it's my mistake. Come to think of it, I recall one incident which can be used to answer both of these points. It happened in a day-long tournament, near the end of the day, and I was mentally exhausted. In the 2nd period, I totally forgot who started on top/started on bottom. I think there were a couple of stoppages for OOB or for stalemates (or some combo). If I recall correctly, the kid on bottom kept getting almost out or around, but never enough to award an esc or a reversal. Then late in the period, after some flurry, he ended up getting a reversal, but I never signaled the points, as I forgot who started where. The coach challenged what had happened, and after checking with the table that COLOR had started on top, and OTHER COLOR ended up on top, I did award a reversal.
Back to the linked video -- it all depends on how the tournament was set up. Sometimes we're lucky, and there are 2 refs on a mat, and you set up some type of sequence (say ref 1 does 2 matches, then ref 2 does 2 matches, or other variations), so there is another ref that might have been watching the match, and could after the mistaken call for a fall tell the other ref that it wasn't a pin, and the ref that called the pin could correct the call. However, there was a shortage of refs before the pandemic started, and the pandemic has made the situation much worse, as a large number of older refs have retired, and others that are immuno-compromised have elected to go inactive. This season, I've done a lot of tournaments, but only one of them was set up so that two refs were at each mat. In situations where there is only 1 ref on a mat, the only person that can change the call is the ref that just made the inaccurate call. Perhaps he could mentally playback the sequence, and realize that he made a mistake and correct it. But he's the one that just made the mistake, so in his memory the kid may well have been on his back and not on his stomach.
“Mental fatigue” were the words I was looking for. I understand that refs can’t and shouldn’t listen to fans or coaches for their calls, but when a call is so egregious, like the one shown, I would hope that the referee could reevaluate the situation.
In HS we wrestlers were allowed to ref wrestle-offs and I think you either had it or you didn’t. It was the varsity that reffed the matches so it was mostly juniors and seniors. That was good practice. A few years passed and I got the itch to get back into the sport. I lived in District 2 in PA and took the classes, studied the books went to all the meetings and passed the test. I hoped to jump right in and start reffing but there was the pecking order so I ended up getting JR high meets, you gotta start somewhere. First dual I’m a little nervous but make it through weigh ins, check hair, fingernails, etc and the meet starts. The first match goes fine and I’m starting to feel comfortable when in the next bout these kids were using every move they ever learned. It was a highlight reel. I found myself on the wrong side of a near fall and didn’t call it. OOB and restart back to center. The offended coach didn’t grab me (but he wanted to) and screamed that I missed the call. Maybe I did, maybe I didn’t but I looked him squarely in the face and told him I was in no position to make the call. You’d have thought I punched his mother.
I didn’t get many more calls to officiate and finished the season. The next year I took a job in another state and other things got in the way of reffing. I retire in June, am still in pretty good shape, who knows I might study up and retake the test..
. I’m sure that coach has retired by now. 
I didn’t get many more calls to officiate and finished the season. The next year I took a job in another state and other things got in the way of reffing. I retire in June, am still in pretty good shape, who knows I might study up and retake the test..
. I’m sure that coach has retired by now.
The point I was trying to make in my earlier reply is that it's not as simple as you might think. Unlike college, there are no video reviews. Even if a parent/coach/whatever took a video of the sequence in question, the ref CAN NOT look at it to review the sequence. The rules specifically state that we can not do that.
So if there's a crazy situation, and no 2nd ref that observed the situation to consult with, the ref that made the mistake is the one that is left to handle the situation.
As I indicated previously, as best as I know, I've never made a call that was anywhere close to as bad as the call in the video. I have been in a few situations that were kind of outside the rule book, which to some extent the video is. In those situations, if I couldn't resolve things to my satisfaction, I would confer with both coaches, to see if there is any type of agreement on what happened, or what should have happened. I can't speak for the ref in the video, but if I had made a mistake like that and was challenged by the coach of the kid that I called as being pinned, after hearing that coach out I would invite him to the table, and ask the other coach to join us. If the opposing coach concurred that the kid had been on his stomach, I would have gladly admitted my mistake, figured out the time and position for a restart, and brought the two kids out on the mat to resume the match. If the coaches didn't concur (most are honest, but some have tunnel vision and are always looking for a way to win), and I had no memory of the kid who I signaled as being pinned as being on his stomach, then I don't see any path in which I would change the call.
Literally no good comes from this whole viral incident… let the dude ******* live. We didn’t need to thrash an official all over the country for a silly mistake, and I’m the last one to get all sentimental about officials, usually.
for all of you who wished our sport end up bastardized as some other “mainstream” sports, you sure got your wish.
for all of you who wished our sport end up bastardized as some other “mainstream” sports, you sure got your wish.
I retire in June, am still in pretty good shape, who knows I might study up and retake the test..
I would encourage you to take the test and get back into reffing. It's fun, and if you put the time and effort into it, you can become pretty good.
Earlier this week, the NFHS released a report that nationwide, the USA is down 50,000 refs from pre-pandemic times. (That's an estimate based on reports from 43 states that have reported figures. The actual decrease may be higher than that.) In short, there is a dire need for refs, so I'm sure the assignor(s) in your area would be very happy to have another ref in their pod.
In terms of the situation you encountered in your 1st dual, it sounds as if you handled it pretty well. Even the most experienced refs, or the most in-shape refs, will find themselves out of position at times when a kid is taken to their back. Assuming that you get back in to reffing, and you face the same situation (which is inevitable), I'd advise two things: 1) don't tell the coach that you were "in no position to make the call." Either avoid responding to him, or say something generic like "I didn't have near fall criteria." 2) after the match, call the assignor and discuss what happened. Schools can request that XYZ ref no longer work their school matches. Assignors usually accommodate those requests, until they find that a particular school or coach is making that request all the time, at which point they realize the problem is more with the coach than with the refs. The bigger thing is it shows the assignor that you're trying to improve and aware of issues that arose in your dual, plus it gives the assignor something to say if the school/coach complains about you.
Best of luck if you elect to get back in reffing.
Thanks Tom. I read your response out loud (to my wife as I may have mentioned that I don’t have {m}any buddies I can share this with) and she said ‘well that was really nice’ and I appreciate that thoughtful response. I knew that officials numbers were down but no idea by that many. Thanks for encouraging me to consider grabbing my shoes back from the center of the mat.
Thank you, Paul Harvey!
I hope that reference isn't lost on too many of you. The Rest of the Story was an interesting and informative radio spot for many years.
Go out and officiate all day, not hard to zone out. I officiated baseball a long time at a high level, it is hard to stay in the moment on every pitch. If you don't think so go do it.
Now I score all day events, really hard to stay in the moment. He has handled the call with grace. By the way, he changed the call.
His son wrestles for Navy, so the man knows the sport.
Now I score all day events, really hard to stay in the moment. He has handled the call with grace. By the way, he changed the call.
His son wrestles for Navy, so the man knows the sport.
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