Penn State offers buyouts to branch campus employees

[HarrisburgDave]

You mean like paying farmers not to produce certain crops?

What’s that about two wrongs making a right?

 

[Midnighter]

What’s that about two wrongs making a right?

Fair, but people rarely have strong feelings about the other myriad of ways we waste money. Let's be consistent about our outrage.

 

[GrimReaper]

Questions: Why is Penn State bothering with buyouts? Isn’t Penn State too big to fail? And if Penn State isn’t too big to fail as is, will these buyouts save us? It would be quite a kick in the nuts to be small and then fail.

Depends on your definition of "fail." ASWP, then a private university, was considered "too big to fail" until 1965 when it's finances went into the schitter. State bailed it out, designated it a state-related school and the rest is history.

So what would take place if something similar happened to PSU? The state would intervene and make it a state school. It would inject funding and guarantee all of of the outstanding and future debt of PSU.Senior administrators would all be fired and the state would mandate reforms and cost savings for a certain period of time.

That's the Cliff's Notes version

 

[HarrisburgDave]

Fair, but people rarely have strong feelings about the other myriad of ways we waste money. Let's be consistent about our outrage.

“A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds” Emerson? One of those 100 quotes to remember from Eng 103

 

[GrimReaper]

Not to be that guy, but how does prepaying a year's salary help the budget? Is it because its "one time expense" and you can put it below the line? Or is the idea that somehow these campuses will function without each of the buyout employees in YRs 2+?

Unless these buyouts come with shutting down the campuses, this probably has a negligible effect on the budget overall.

Year 1 is a wash. Faculty opting for a buyout would be paid under any circumstances, they're just being paid to not teach. View it as a large-scale, accelerated sabbatical year. Presumably they are either not being replaced or their slots are being filled by lower-paid, non-tenure track instructors.

How much would this save? Who knows? PSU hasn't updated its progress in reducing its deficit for years (I hope that's not telling us something).

 

[manatree]

Some interesting calculus here. How much unfulfilled demand is there for each class of employee covered by this? Facilities folks probably can find something comparable pretty easily, so they may bolt at the highest rate. I’m not sure longer tenure faculty have their phones ringing off the hook given the general state of higher ed, or do they?

At UPark, the facilities type positions are all union jobs. I don't know what they are at the other campuses, but if they are, they might not be eligible depending on the terms of their agreement.

This also does not impact full time library staff at the campuses as the libraries funding is handled centrally, not at the campus level.

 

[CbusLion]

Is your solution to ignore the time-value of money?

I'm not sure I want anyone giving out interest free loans especially if the loaner is borrowing money to loan out. The US government currently borrows money at +/-5%. If the government is then lending at 0% something is not going to work.

The offset is the benefit to the economy by furthering education.

Although it could be argued that if your education is advanced, your earnings would advance enough to pay off the interest plus the principle.

I believe the underlying issue is 1) degrees that don't have an ROI, with the conflict of interest from the universities making millions on those degrees, and obviously not providing academic counseling away from those fields and 2) that too many people are going to college too young, and not truly learning much but still incurring all the costs

 

[Midnighter]

The offset is the benefit to the economy by furthering education.

Although it could be argued that if your education is advanced, your earnings would advance enough to pay off the interest plus the principle.

I believe the underlying issue is 1) degrees that don't have an ROI, with the conflict of interest from the universities making millions on those degrees, and obviously not providing academic counseling away from those fields and 2) that too many people are going to college too young, and not truly learning much but still incurring all the costs

To your second point, many have debt with nothing to show for it. And it’s usually not a ton of debt - just enough to be insurmountable (most people with significant debt have advanced degrees and no issue paying) - which for some can be $20,000 - and when you default, it spirals. How about having schools provide initial loans to students which upon graduation are then assumed by the government? That would help keep costs down and schools more selective in their admission process. If you can pay full boat, do whatever you want. If you don’t graduate, the school is on the hook for the debt.

 

[Bwifan]

I see the traditional college President coming from an academic background and I see that changing.

Drexel hired the F&M President a decade ago. John Fry had worked at Penn on the business side and he repositioned F&M during his time there. Now he is building Drexel to another level. He saw the student crunch coming and recognized the same old policies would doom a school.

I would like to see Penn State reach out to someone like Fry when the current President moves on.

Exactly. My wife is a Drexel and her family has a seat on the board in perpetuity. Her family is very happy with Fry and his decisions with setting Drexel up in the future. A lot of schools are going to face a harsh reality with the student crunch.

 

[CbusLion]

To your second point, many have debt with nothing to show for it. And it’s usually not a ton of debt - just enough to be insurmountable (most people with significant debt have advanced degrees and no issue paying) - which for some can be $20,000 - and when you default, it spirals. How about having schools provide initial loans to students which upon graduation are then assumed by the government? That would help keep costs down and schools more selective in their admission process. If you can pay full boat, do whatever you want. If you don’t graduate, the school is on the hook for the debt.

School administration will graduate everyone. Kids will learn even less and degrees will hold less value.

Personal accountability is the cleanest solution, laughable as that may sound

 

[PhillyBillyReprise]

I worked in government Human Resources for 40 years. Reductions in force that give incentives to employees to retire almost always have the wrong employees retiring. Layoffs when done correctly help the organization to fiscal stability.
Layoffs are difficult and not fun, but they can make the reductions where the organization can operate effectively and efficiently.

 

[PSUFTG2]

I worked in government Human Resources for 40 years. Reductions in force that give incentives to employees to retire almost always have the wrong employees retiring. Layoffs when done correctly help the organization to fiscal stability.
Layoffs are difficult and not fun, but they can make the reductions where the organization can operate effectively and efficiently.

 

[MtNittany]

There's a way to save the old state teacher's colleges and PSU branch campuses, but no one will touch it.

Cut administrators by half, get rid of useless majors and their professors, then lower tuition in a proportionate manner. Like 1/2.

 

[Karl_Havok]

These are the types of reforms I disagree with. Why are you going to reward someone that makes a poor personal financial decision by giving them a benefit that others who are making smarter decisions can't have? If anything the people making smart decisions deserve the rewards as they are bearing the burden of their decisions themselves rather than relying on others for assistance.

We are talking about 17-18 year old kids here when we are talking about the people being taken advantage of with this entire predatory loan business which is exactly what college loans are at this point, predatory.

When the idea of loan forgiveness was first brought up a few years ago people complained because they said it was unfair because they had to pay back all of their loans.

So I propose a solution that would have borrowers pay back 100% of their loans because that was the big gripe and now the goal posts are being moved to “if they are stupid enough to make poor financial decisions at 17-18 years old then too bad for them.”

It’s almost like people aren’t interested in improving things for younger generations but simply want to see them suffer because they don’t want them to have anything better than they have, but would rather have them suffer the same ******** we have.

We definitely are not going to agree here. I want future generations to have it better than I did even if I don’t personally benefit. A lot of people want younger generations to have it at least as hard as they did because they won’t benefit directly from them having it better.

 

[MtNittany]

Bloom, Edinboro, Kutz, IUP, Mansfield, etc. was where you went to become a teacher (not an engineer or a clinical psychologist).

Lock Haven or Slippery Rock was where you went to become a gym teacher (not a chemist or a finance wiz).

Millersville was where you went to become a shop teacher (not an architect or a journalist).

You could go become a nurse at any one of them.

Things used to work - but we've lost our way.

 

[PSUFTG2]

We are talking about 17-18 year old kids here when we are talking about the people being taken advantage of with this entire predatory loan business which is exactly what college loans are at this point, predatory.

When the idea of loan forgiveness was first brought up a few years ago people complained because they said it was unfair because they had to pay back all of their loans.

So I propose a solution that would have borrowers pay back 100% of their loans because that was the big gripe and now the goal posts are being moved to “if they are stupid enough to make poor financial decisions at 17-18 years old then too bad for them.”

It’s almost like people aren’t interested in improving things for younger generations but simply want to see them suffer because they don’t want them to have anything better than they have, but would rather have them suffer the same ******** we have.

We definitely are not going to agree here. I want future generations to have it better than I did even if I don’t personally benefit. A lot of people want younger generations to have it at least as hard as they did because they won’t benefit directly from them having it better.

There are many problems with Higher Education (one of them is the way the student loan industry "works"). It would be wonderful to see actual steps taken to reduce, eliminate, or mitigate any of those problems.

Having someone else pay off the loans for students solves...... none of them. And makes some of them worse.
But, of course, there is a reason(s) why that (the so-called "student loan forgiveness" bit - which is a misnomer of the first degree) - is what we hear so much talk about. The reason has nothing to do with making Higher Education "better".

 

[Karl_Havok]

There are many problems with Higher Education (one of them is the way the student loan industry "works"). It would be wonderful to see actual steps taken to reduce, eliminate, or mitigate any of those problems.

Having someone else pay off the loans for students solves...... none of them. And makes some of them worse.
But, of course, there is a reason(s) why that (the so-called "student loan forgiveness" bit - which is a misnomer of the first degree) - is what we hear so much talk about. The reason has nothing to do with making Higher Education "better".

I proposed a compromise of having borrowers pay back 100% of their loans and people are still saying that’s too good for borrowers.

When paying back 100% of the money someone borrows isn’t good enough you know it’s not about paying back what they borrowed. It’s about making people suffer.

 

[MtNittany]

There are many problems with Higher Education (one of them is the way the student loan industry "works"). It would be wonderful to see actual steps taken to reduce, eliminate, or mitigate any of those problems.

Having someone else pay off the loans for students solves...... none of them. And makes some of them worse.
But, of course, there is a reason(s) why that (the so-called "student loan forgiveness" bit - which is a misnomer of the first degree) - is what we hear so much talk about. The reason has nothing to do with making Higher Education "better".

Require the University/College to co-sign the loan. You want to sell a womyns studies major to a 17 year old kid? Back it up w/ a signature.

 

[LB99]

I worked in government Human Resources for 40 years. Reductions in force that give incentives to employees to retire almost always have the wrong employees retiring. Layoffs when done correctly help the organization to fiscal stability.
Layoffs are difficult and not fun, but they can make the reductions where the organization can operate effectively and efficiently.

I grew up being the child of parents on the wrong end of layoffs in the blue collar workforce. You ever experience that? It’s less than not fun. Regardless of how it makes the organization run effectively or how they may be “done correctly”, the people on the other end of the layoff can’t be ignored. It should be a very difficult decision to make, especially for those employees who poured their heart and soul into the position and never or rarely asked for anything more than they were getting in return.

 

[LB99]

I’m not surprised you are applauding the thought of layoffs. You seem like a “trickle down economics” BS proponent. You ever been laid off?

 

[Keyser Soze 16802]

Require the University/College to co-sign the loan. You want to sell a womyns studies major to a 17 year old kid? Back it up w/ a signature.

This is a simple solution and would be highly effective

I'd also add a total ban on government backing loans for students to attend for-profit universities

 

[GrimReaper]

Require the University/College to co-sign the loan. You want to sell a womyns studies major to a 17 year old kid? Back it up w/ a signature.

This is a simple solution and would be highly effective

I'd also add a total ban on government backing loans for students to attend for-profit universities

Don't pussyfoot around it; have the schools make the loans directly.

 

[psuro]

Fair, but people rarely have strong feelings about the other myriad of ways we waste money. Let's be consistent about our outrage.

i am outraged at our lack of consistency.

 

[SleepyLion]

I think you are correct in that we probably aren't going to be able to come to an agreement on this and are miles apart. I agree that not all degrees are the same. I would be willing to listen to a compromise though where specific fields and degrees could qualify for an interest free loan while others do not. I think the arts are valuable to society but in a different way than say STEM fields. I think a major part of solving this issue is compromising for something that works better than what we have now.

We might be getting closer. It is hard to disagree with the two statements I highlighted above.
The devil is in the details with that second one though.
There needs to be some level of responsibility for all (schools, students, lenders, society) involved and right now it is all on the students.
The other thing that is changing fast is the economics of a college education. Even some of the technical degrees will not pay any better than a good plumber would make, but their hands will be cleaner. 20 years ago there were a lot of kids that should have went straight into skilled trades, but went to a technical field in college and dropped out only to end up in skilled trades.
One of the points in the book I referenced is the importance of education in making a better nation.

 

[SleepyLion]

The offset is the benefit to the economy by furthering education.

Although it could be argued that if your education is advanced, your earnings would advance enough to pay off the interest plus the principle.

I believe the underlying issue is 1) degrees that don't have an ROI, with the conflict of interest from the universities making millions on those degrees, and obviously not providing academic counseling away from those fields and 2) that too many people are going to college too young, and not truly learning much but still incurring all the costs

1) degrees with low or nil ROI are a problem. How many employers require a undergrad psychology degree? There were a lot of people I knew majoring in psychology or another less employable program when I was in school at the turn of the century. Even then people would ask them, what are you going tondo with that? It is not like there were no warning signs.
2) My cousin had an idea that if you did not want to go to college but wanted the "college experience" there should be age limited apartments. Everybody that lived there would be between 18 & 25 and you were limited to staying ony 4 years. Pay the rent and then leave. You could even have a regular job if you wanted. After 4 years you had your experience and were only down room and board.

 

[CbusLion]

1) degrees with low or nil ROI are a problem. How many employers require a undergrad psychology degree? There were a lot of people I knew majoring in psychology or another less employable program when I was in school at the turn of the century. Even then people would ask them, what are you going tondo with that? It is not like there were no warning signs.
2) My cousin had an idea that if you did not want to go to college but wanted the "college experience" there should be age limited apartments. Everybody that lived there would be between 18 & 25 and you were limited to staying ony 4 years. Pay the rent and then leave. You could even have a regular job if you wanted. After 4 years you had your experience and were only down room and board.

I would get a fake ID to stay in that apartment

 

[BobPSU92]

PSU article on their business decision:

https://www.psu.edu/news/administration/story/penn-state-offers-voluntary-separation-incentive-program-eligible-commonwealth/

 

[PSUSignore]

We are talking about 17-18 year old kids here when we are talking about the people being taken advantage of with this entire predatory loan business which is exactly what college loans are at this point, predatory.

When the idea of loan forgiveness was first brought up a few years ago people complained because they said it was unfair because they had to pay back all of their loans.

So I propose a solution that would have borrowers pay back 100% of their loans because that was the big gripe and now the goal posts are being moved to “if they are stupid enough to make poor financial decisions at 17-18 years old then too bad for them.”

It’s almost like people aren’t interested in improving things for younger generations but simply want to see them suffer because they don’t want them to have anything better than they have, but would rather have them suffer the same ******** we have.

We definitely are not going to agree here. I want future generations to have it better than I did even if I don’t personally benefit. A lot of people want younger generations to have it at least as hard as they did because they won’t benefit directly from them having it better.

Predatory lending and irresponsible borrower actions, and high tuition costs are 3 separate problems. It's not about making anyone suffer. If you are going to offer interest free loans for higher education, which is not a bad idea, then they should be offered to all, not just those in a financial bind after the fact. If you're going to waive interest on existing loans then waive it for everyone.

It's about fairness, equality and incentivizing smart behaviors and decision-making in the first place instead of issuing bail outs after the fact because someone didn't do their homework before signing documents containing the terms of a loan that they didn't research or understand. There must be some element of personal responsibility for one's actions otherwise the benefits only for those that are suffering gets interpreted by those that did do their due diligence as unfair, and the responsible people then feel they are being "punished" for making smart decisions, and instead should have been irresponsible to get the bailouts too. Borrowers have to take some responsibility in understanding what they are signing up for and their actions. It is easier than ever before to find out all the information one needs when borrowing money and understanding the benefits of one's chosen field of study, it's all a quick internet search away. Saying they don't do this because they are only 17-18 years old is a cop out, that's no excuse for not understanding what you are signing for when you fill out the paperwork. Once 18 years old you are officially an adult, and are responsible for your actions legally.

Before I took out any student loans I was aware of how much I'd need to cover my complete 5 year college term, the job market for my major, average starting salaries, I continued to work part-time as a freshman and sophomore, I intentionally went to a commonwealth campus and lived with my parents for the first 2 years to save room & board costs, I took a year off for the engineering co-op program to (1) make some money as an upperclassman and (2) improve my post graduation job placement chances, I didn't defer loan interest payments when presented with the opportunities, etc.

A part of the problem today is students, despite most being fully aware of the pervasive student loan crisis, still opt not to take steps that would limit their financial risk. Why? I have no idea. Too many students choose the expensive options like going to expensive private schools, moving to campus immediately (sometimes unavoidable), not working a job, living in expensive luxury apartments, and majoring in jobs with limited future opportunities and starting salaries that are insufficient to pay off their loans in a reasonable amount of time.

The solutions are multi-faceted and very complex, requiring reform all over the place including government funding, the universities, lenders, employers, students, and so on. But students need to take actions on the things they can control... choosing a major, choosing a school (location and tuition) and deciding how much to borrow are all things a student has at least some control over.

 

[razpsu]

A year's pay for employees that only need 1 year of employment to qualify is a hell of a severance package offer, incredibly generous.

Incredibly wasteful! One year of employment and get one year paid. Schools and government at work!!

 

[Keyser Soze 16802]

Check this out. Guy takes out loans to get an associate degree in physics (what?) and a BS in political science (what?)

How could anyone possibly think those are good choices for finding a good job? Does he expect someone to hire him to explain black holes and the nuances of John Stuart Mill?

https://www.businessinsider.com/millennial-cant-get-hired-bachelors-degree-men-cant-find-jobs-2024-5

"No one will hire me," he said. "My Bachelor's degree is pretty much worthless." No sheet, Sherlock

 

[#1143]

There's a way to save the old state teacher's colleges and PSU branch campuses, but no one will touch it.

Cut administrators by half, get rid of useless majors and their professors, then lower tuition in a proportionate manner. Like 1/2.

Care to provide a complete listing of those "useless majors"? Then, which admins stay, and which ones go? You have the answers. Just seeking clarification.....

 

[Midnighter]

Check this out. Guy takes out loans to get an associate degree in physics (what?) and a BS in political science (what?)

How could anyone possibly think those are good choices for finding a good job? Does he expect someone to hire him to explain black holes and the nuances of John Stuart Mill?

https://www.businessinsider.com/millennial-cant-get-hired-bachelors-degree-men-cant-find-jobs-2024-5

"No one will hire me," he said. "My Bachelor's degree is pretty much worthless." No sheet, Sherlock

Eh, it's tough out there. A former intern of mine (Brown undergrad, Columbia grad school - hard science major; excellent internship and graduate school work experience) sent a note asking if I could check his social media presence to see if there were any red flags (of course not). Says he's having a hard time finding a job; it's rough out there. Position in my wife's company opened up at VP level and there were 275 applications to sort through (it's an excellent job at an excellent company, but still....).

Meanwhile, I introduced another, more recent intern (set to graduate this year) to yet another previous intern (works as a consultant for a major global firm in DC) and they hit it off - with the consultant getting the other an interview and subsequent job at her firm - mostly because the more recent intern speaks a very desirable language....

 

[Keyser Soze 16802]

Eh, it's tough out there. A former intern of mine (Brown undergrad, Columbia grad school - hard science major; excellent internship and graduate school work experience) sent a note asking if I could check his social media presence to see if there were any red flags (of course not). Says he's having a hard time finding a job; it's rough out there. Position in my wife's company opened up at VP level and there were 275 applications to sort through (it's an excellent job at an excellent company, but still....).

All fair. Don't you think the guy in the article would have been better served to major in accounting or finance or business analytics or supply chain management?

Chances are he went with poli sci because "that's what I'm interested in" which is not a practical approach

 

[Anon1648262989]

This is incredibly depressing. Any of those schools close, it would be a hell of a blow to the city. What would Slippery Rock be without SRU, Millersville without MUP? I just realized that this is about PSU branch campuses, same difference, I suppose.

My wife grew up in Jacksonville, IL, graduated from MacMurray College, where her parents taught. (Biologists, the students called them Ma and Pa.) MacMurray went under after Covid and this has left a hole in the city.

I was lucky enough to have taught at a small college my entire career. It can be a great gig, especially if you teach mathematics. These faculty here, if the schools go belly up their careers as academics are pretty much over. Try waking up to that, that must suck.

Well, off to the gym!

Everything is going online. Back in the 80's I did seminary in two years a four year degree through Liberty University via correspondence with doing the last 6 months on campus which was a must. On campus education is assuredly dying a slow death. There will always be a need for on campus but much much less as time goes on.

 

[Keyser Soze 16802]

Some stats on enrollment at various campuses

https://www.abc27.com/pennsylvania/...ed-at-each-of-penn-states-19-branch-campuses/

 

[Midnighter]

All fair. Don't you think the guy in the article would have been better served to major in accounting or finance or business analytics or supply chain management?

Chances are he went with poli sci because "that's what I'm interested in" which is not a practical approach

Sure - but how many accountants and engineers do we need? The big issue is not steering kids towards practical careers that do not require a college degree and instead telling them they must have a degree (and companies perpetuate this by making degrees mandatory for almost all positions). You then get a bunch of people taking classes in what they’re interested in instead of what is practical - even in our military being an officer only requires a degree - doesn’t have to be in anything specific (unless a lawyer or doctor).

 

[BobPSU92]

Sure - but how many accountants and engineers do we need? The big issue is not steering kids towards practical careers that do not require a college degree and instead telling them they must have a degree (and companies perpetuate this by making degrees mandatory for almost all positions). You then get a bunch of people taking classes in what they’re interested in instead of what is practical - even in our military being an officer only requires a degree - doesn’t have to be in anything specific (unless a lawyer or doctor).

I’m O.K. with engineers, including the train kind, but a bus load of accountants at the bottom of the ocean would be a good start.

 

[#1143]

Sure - but how many accountants and engineers do we need? The big issue is not steering kids towards practical careers that do not require a college degree and instead telling them they must have a degree (and companies perpetuate this by making degrees mandatory for almost all positions). You then get a bunch of people taking classes in what they’re interested in instead of what is practical - even in our military being an officer only requires a degree - doesn’t have to be in anything specific (unless a lawyer or doctor).

But, is it really, simply just that? "making degrees mandatory for almost all positions"
How else are these companies to make hiring decisions for young people? The ones that have gotten through a rigorous learning-based program that tells employers "hey, I have some basic skills that transfer to the professional workplace - I can solve problems, write effectively, collaborate with others, learn complex material"
How do companies judge others without degrees for similar employment opportunities?

 

[Midnighter]

But, is it really, simply just that? "making degrees mandatory for almost all positions"
How else are these companies to make hiring decisions for young people? The ones that have gotten through a rigorous learning-based program that tells employers "hey, I have some basic skills that transfer to the professional workplace - I can solve problems, write effectively, collaborate with others, learn complex material"
How do companies judge others without degrees for similar employment opportunities?

Interview them? Ask for references and writing samples? Do you need a bachelor’s degree for every entry level job everywhere? No.

 

[Keyser Soze 16802]

Sure - but how many accountants and engineers do we need? The big issue is not steering kids towards practical careers that do not require a college degree and instead telling them they must have a degree (and companies perpetuate this by making degrees mandatory for almost all positions). You then get a bunch of people taking classes in what they’re interested in instead of what is practical - even in our military being an officer only requires a degree - doesn’t have to be in anything specific (unless a lawyer or doctor).

I agree with you on the trades. Luckily the trades appear to be getting more popular