Summerville/Ashley Ridge baseball game controversy

[18IsTheMan]

Summerville came back from a 4-0 deficit to win 6-4 and advance to the championship series. However, a pitch count error resulted in a Summerville forfeit and Ashley Ridge will advance to the championship series instead. The Summerville pitcher had thrown 2 pitches the day before and rules stipulate that if a pitchers throws on consecutive days, he can only throw 75 pitches. The Summerville pitcher threw 83 pitches.

Have mixed thoughts on this one. It seems the Ashley Ridge coaching staff was aware of the pitch count situation in-game and let it play out so they could protest after the fact and get the forfeit, knowing they probably weren't going to win the game on the field. Just seems like poor sportsmanship to me to "win' that way. On the other hand, the Summerville staff should have known the rules as well and been aware of the situation, so it's a major blunder on their part.

Either way, in the end, it's the kids who actually won the game on the field who are screwed. Summerville is appealing, but I don't see any reason they would overturn it, unless there's a loophole somewhere. It's a spirit of the law vs letter of the law deal. Yeah, the kid did throw on back-to-back days and was limited by the rule to 75 pitches. But he'd only thrown 2 pitches the day before, so obviously that's not what they had in mind when the rule was created.

 

[Gamecock Jacque]

Rules are rules. What were they supposed to do?

 

[18IsTheMan]

Rules are rules. What were they supposed to do?

Some are saying the sporting thing to do would have been to call time and inform the opposing coach once the 75 pitch count was reached. Certainly, that can't be expected, and it would have been a great show of sportsmanship. Ultimately it falls on the Summerville staff for not being clear on the rule.

Personally, I would not feel very satisfied if my team won on a technicality like that and I knew about it ahead of time.

Kinda reminds me of a video I saw recently of a race where the lead runner had an insurmountable lead. As he was nearing the finish line, he pulled up lame and was just hobbling towards the finish. The second place guy could have just blown past him and legitimately won the race, but he slowed up, knowing the only reason he would win is b/c the other guy had a fluke injury near the finish, and let the lead guy win. Did he have to do that? Certainly not. Was it good sportsmanship? For sure.

 

[BftCocks09]

Is the Ashley Ridge coach the one who brought the pitch count issue to the high school league’s attention?

 

[18IsTheMan]

Is the Ashley Ridge coach the one who brought the pitch count issue to the high school league’s attention?

They informed the umps immediately upon conclusion of the game.

 

[BftCocks09]

They informed the umps immediately upon conclusion of the game.

Then yea. Loser move by the opposing coach. I suppose it’s possible he didn’t realize it in the moment, and by the time he realized or was informed of the issue the damage had already been done. Either way it’s a bad look for that coach and truthfully would spoil the win for me as a coach or player.

 

[Bubba Fett]

Boy, do I have mixed feelings about this. I can see it both ways.

 

[will110]

Rules are rules!

But...

This situation sucks.

 

[Gradstudent]

I wonder how many times this happened before and the losing coach, just moved on, and did not call it out, and no one really knows?

Its hard to see a wrong or right, as Bubba says you can see both ways, but what would you do?

I'm thinking, if I was the losing coach, I would not try to win on the technicality and just move on, we had our chances and did not win it in the field mentality.

 

[18IsTheMan]

Rules are rules!

But...

This situation sucks.

I'd be curious to know the Summerville's coach's thinking. Did he know he was violating the rule and just hoped nobody would notice? Did he think for some reason that the pitcher having only thrown 2 pitches the day before would somehow exempt him from the 75 pitch limit? Or was he just not aware of the rule. The latter seems unlikely.

 

[18IsTheMan]

I wonder how many times this happened before and the losing coach, just moved on, and did not call it out, and no one really knows?

Its hard to see a wrong or right, as Bubba says you can see both ways, but what would you do?

I'm thinking, if I was the losing coach, I would not try to win on the technicality and just move on, we had our chances and did not win it in the field mentality.

That's about where I am, unless it was apparent to me that the opposing coach was egregiously and intentionally trying to break the rules and get away with it.

 

[Bubba Fett]

After thinking on it some more... it was a poor move by the coach. Using the rules to your advantage is part of the game, but...

this rule was meant to protect pitchers, and not give losers a freebie. This goes against the intent of the rule, and the spirit of the game.

 

[18IsTheMan]

The SCHSL rule is pretty clear: "According to South Carolina High School League (SCHSL) rules: 'If a pitcher throws on consecutive days, he has a maximum of 75 pitches on the 2nd day regardless of whether he threw one pitch or 30 pitches on the first day.'"

I'm not sure how the Summerville coach wouldn't have known, particularly in the playoffs when you're more likely to use guys on consecutive days.

I'm on the side of thinking this was kind of a weasley move by Ashley Ridge. BUT if the Summerville coach knew he was breaking the rule and was just hoping to get away with it, that would change my thinking somewhat. They still lost on the field though.

 

[Cockywilder]

Summerville, who is led by MLB Draft prospect P.J. Morlando, may violated the league's pitch count rule. According to the Charleston Post and Courier, Summerville starting pitcher Thayer Tavormina threw two pitches in Wednesday's loss to Ashley Ridge, then tossed 83 more pitches in Thursday's deciding game.

 

[Rogue Cock]

Summerville, who is led by MLB Draft prospect P.J. Morlando, may violated the league's pitch count rule. According to the Charleston Post and Courier, Summerville starting pitcher Thayer Tavormina threw two pitches in Wednesday's loss to Ashley Ridge, then tossed 83 more pitches in Thursday's deciding game.

And the AR coach pulled his pitcher after 71 pitches (when AR had the lead) who was also subject to the 75 pitch rule.

 

[Uscg1984]

this rule was meant to protect pitchers, and not give losers a freebie. This goes against the intent of the rule, and the spirit of the game.

While that is true, the rule effects the pitching strategy of the two teams. It's unfair if one team doesn't have to worry about strategy while the other one does.

I think we all agree we'd hate to win on a technicality, but I think we'd also hate to win by ignoring a rule the other team abided by. I'd hate to be in the AR coach's shoes after that game. But the fault lies with the Summerville coach who put him in that position.

 

[18IsTheMan]

While that is true, the rule effects the pitching strategy of the two teams. It's unfair if one team doesn't have to worry about strategy while the other one does.

I think we all agree we'd hate to win on a technicality, but I think we'd also hate to win by ignoring a rule the other team abided by. I'd hate to be in the AR coach's shoes after that game. But the fault lies with the Summerville coach who put him in that position.

I guess the question is, the AR coach apparently knew about the pitch count, so some are asking why he didn't call time and bring it to anyone's attention. It makes it look as though he knew they weren't going to win on the field, so he took the win by forfeit on a technicality route. If it was pointed out to him after the fact after the game was over, that would be a different story altogether, but he apparently knew it in-game.

I do agree, the burden ultimately lies with the Summerville coach to know the rules.

 

[LonghornsGamecocks]

Boy, do I have mixed feelings about this. I can see it both ways.

I agree.

Here's a similar analogy: A football team lines up to punt on 4th and 4. The opposing team has 12 men in the punt return formation. Does Team 1's coach call a timeout because they don't want to be awarded a first down on a technicality? I don't think that would ever happen.

Here's an analogy from a different sport: A golfer moves his mark on the green, but fails to remember to replace it before putting out. His playing partner notices and says nothing, and player 1 incurs a penalty. Player 2 could have flagged Player 1 prior to P1 putting out and saved the penalty. I played competitive tournament golf for many years, and in 100% of these situations, playing partners stepped in real time to save the potential offender from unwittingly incurring a penalty.

 

[Rogue Cock]

I guess the question is, the AR coach apparently knew about the pitch count, so some are asking why he didn't call time and bring it to anyone's attention. It makes it look as though he knew they weren't going to win on the field, so he took the win by forfeit on a technicality route. If it was pointed out to him after the fact after the game was over, that would be a different story altogether, but he apparently knew it in-game.

I do agree, the burden ultimately lies with the Summerville coach to know the rules.

There is no evidence that the AR coach didn't report it to the umpire....several have said he did. It evidently is not up to the umpire or other referees to impose the rule. It by all accounts is up to the coach of the offending team and the SCHSL to do so. Believe the rule was adopted fairly recently so the Summerville coach should definitely know it.

 

[Uscg1984]

Baseball is a crazy game. Is this all that different than when a team hits a walk-off homerun but the runner fails to touch every bag around the bases? The game would be over the moment the runner touches home plate, but the opposing team appeals to the umpire, the batter/runner is called out and the opposing team wins on a technicality if they had a lead.

Same thing for a winning run that leaves base early on a sac fly, right?

 

[18IsTheMan]

Baseball is a crazy game. Is this all that different than when a team hits a walk-off homerun but the runner fails to touch every bag around the bases? The game would be over the moment the runner touches home plate, but the opposing team appeals to the umpire, the batter/runner is called out and the opposing team wins on a technicality if they had a lead.

Same thing for a winning run that leaves base early on a sac fly, right?

I see that as execution, not technicality.

 

[18IsTheMan]

There is no evidence that the AR coach didn't report it to the umpire....several have said he did. It evidently is not up to the umpire or other referees to impose the rule. It by all accounts is up to the coach of the offending team and the SCHSL to do so. Believe the rule was adopted fairly recently so the Summerville coach should definitely know it.

I said he did report it to the umps. What some are questioning is whether it was unsportsmanlike to wait and report it after the game was over instead of bringing it to light during the game. Legality is not what some are asking about. It's sportsmanship.

 

[Rogue Cock]

I said he did report it to the umps. What some are questioning is whether it was unsportsmanlike to wait and report it after the game was over instead of bringing it to light during the game. Legality is not what some are asking about. It's sportsmanship.

Some on the IF are saying he reported it during the game....not after. He obviously can't interrupt an inning if he knew it the moment the pitcher went over the limit. And he definitely isn't required to walk over to the opposing dugout and tell the opposing coach "Hey, your pitcher just went over the pitching limit" which could cause a bench-clearing. He knew his own pitcher's limitation and pulled him.....he is in no way responsible for the opposing coach's players or for the opposing coach knowing the rule.

 

[18IsTheMan]

..he is in no way responsible for the opposing coach's players or for the opposing coach knowing the rule.

Yes, that has already been stated above in post #3, by me.

 

[Gamecock72]

I have no problem with it. It is 100% on Summerville. Either Summerville knew they were breaking the rule and did it anyway or the coaching staff was not doing their job and keeping up with those stats. Either way, it is not the job of the AR coaches to remind Summerville coaches of the rule to keep them from breaking it. And I have zero issues with AR turning Summerville in. Even more so if Summerville did it on purpose.

 

[Gamecock72]

And after reading up on this even more, I feel it was even more deserved and the AR coach is justified in reporting it. The AR pitcher was pitching a great game and AR was winning but since their pitcher was subject to the same rules, they pulled him at 71 pitches. It was not until the relievers came in that AR lost the lead. So AR filled the rules even though it ultimately cost them the lead. I would be pissed if the other coach ignored that rule and left his guy in and no doubt I would have turned him in also.

 

[TN-Gamecock]

And after reading up on this even more, I feel it was even more deserved and the AR coach is justified in reporting it. The AR pitcher was pitching a great game and AR was winning but since their pitcher was subject to the same rules, they pulled him at 71 pitches. It was not until the relievers came in that AR lost the lead. So AR filled the rules even though it ultimately cost them the lead. I would be pissed if the other coach ignored that rule and left his guy in and no doubt I would have turned him in also.

Based on your last remark, you've won me over...The Summerville coach should've known. The AR coaches knew, so it's on Summerville.

 

[Sweetwatergolf]

Being ruled on tomorrow morning I'm hearing....not sure what Summerville would be appealing here...

 

[Abush]

This isn't the complete story. Also, I have no dog in the fight.

Ashley Ridge made umps aware of the pitching situation during the game. The umpires cannot then forfeit the game.

According to rules, the game had to finish, and both coaches had to sign the official scorecard stating that the numbers were correct. Once the Summerville head coach signed the scorecard stating what Ashley Ridge has was correct, THEN the umpires were able to call the game as a forfeit by Summerville.

It's a clear rules violation, it's in the SCHSL handbook clear as day. It's on the Summerville head coach to follow the rules. If he didn't realize it, it's his negligence.

 

[Guy in the Back]

The rules also state that you can finish the batter if you exceed your pitch count. He obviously pitched to the next batter after exceeding the pitch count. I have seen coaches take pitchers out mid at-bat in order to keep their count in an area that they have them available when they need them later.

Summerville coach knew the rules. They are discussed at mandatory coaches meetings every year. As far as AR coach goes, I don’t blame him. His job is to look out for his kids. He did that. As a parent, I wouldn’t like that is how we won, but I’d be pissed if I found out my kid’s coach knew the other team had or was going to violate a rule and he didn’t do what he should to help his team. His responsibility is to his kids, not Summerville’s.

 

[mickray]

Sportsmanship was eradicated in the sixties.....

 

[Abush]

 

[Abush]

 

[Abush]

 

[Gamecock72]

Summerville lost the appeal in a unanimous vote. 11-0

 

[ctgarric]

I think I’d need a little more context on the day before to form an opinion. Did Summerville bring him in in a pinch to get the last out of an inning to get out of a jam? Knowing they were going to start him the next day?

If they did and that was the difference in the previous game, I could see calling Summerville out for trying to pull a fast one.

If it was inconsequential, than I think that’s a poor move.

 

[Gamecock72]

I think I’d need a little more context on the day before to form an opinion. Did Summerville bring him in in a pinch to get the last out of an inning to get out of a jam? Knowing they were going to start him the next day?

If they did and that was the difference in the previous game, I could see calling Summerville out for trying to pull a fast one.

If it was inconsequential, than I think that’s a poor move.

From what I understand, the game the day before was halted by weather and their pitcher threw 2 pitches before that happened. So by rule, he was only allowed 75 pitches the following day. They actually kept him in the game for two batters after he passed 75 pitches. The only way you are allowed to go over 75 is if you reach that limit when batting to someone. You are allowed to finish pitching to that batter. The AR pitcher pitches 20-something in that game also. Their coaches pulled him at 71 because of the rule.

The SCHSL people seem a little aggravated and pissed about the appeal. Sumervilles excuse was the coach never got the email about the rule because he was in between coaching jobs. Even though he was at the meeting with the SCHSL going over new rules and signed off on it.

 

[Anon1674955375]

As a former coach, I understand the frustration with this, but the rules are the rules. The coach from Summerville, I'm sure is aware of the rules. He knew them going into the game and he knew them the day before, when he chose to use his pitcher for 2 pitches, which I'll never understand. If he's not the one monitoring pitch count then an assistant coach is. A high school coach knows this and has been probably been doing it since Dixie Youth. From a competitive perspective, this sucks on so many levels for the kids, but the job of a coach is not to put the team in this situation and if you don't have another pitcher to pitch 2 pitches and get one out, then you probably don't deserve to be there in the first place. The rule is there to protect the players because coaches overuse their star players because of the importance and premium put on winning these days. I'm sorry, the coach knew the rule and should've found another way the day before.