When Six Pack changes your political stance

[HuntDawg]

Why has nobody provided the text of the rule broken? And if they are claiming 6.2.3 was broken, why can't they point to any provision stating that indoor track and outdoor track and field are to be treated as a single sport?

Again seems like everyone involved knew and no one appealed. There are several follow-up articles to be found where people speak on the behalf of the MHSAA. No one likes the way it ended. But again the point of this.. was it was brought up that schools are cut throat now... this wasnt a cut throat situation. Also the fact that NO ONE appealed, rings loudly.

Again hopefully the Tupelo admin has begun the process to change the rule... below is just on exerpt from someone that follow the track and field circuit closely.

Brock Kelly, a former state champion distance runner at Tupelo Christian, has been following Brown’s case closely. After speaking with Tillman on Monday, Kelly said he understands the rule’s intent: to keep Mississippi athletes competing mainly in the state.
“I feel like the MHSAA isn’t necessarily the bad guy here,” said Kelly, who now runs for Mississippi College. “I’m all for representing the athletes. The athletes need representation here. But the MHSAA has a rule, it’s in place, it was set in place in the guidebook, and they’re just trying to enforce it.”

 

[mstateglfr]

Every fiber of my conservative being supports school choice. Every student in Mississippi deserves a chance at a good education.

But reading that Collierville thread - school choice in MS would not be used to better education, it would be used to win football games. Disgusting. Just like someone said - college football is basically mercenaries at this point, high schools are quickly going that route.

On Athletics...
- What is the rule in Mississippi for sitting out if you are on varsity and transfer to another school/district?
- My state has a 90 consecutive day rule, and summer months dont count. If you are on varsity and move, you are ineligible to play at your new school for 90 consecutive school days.
- One school district I know of, Cedar Rapids which is a larger one in the state, has had a District rule that makes students ineligible for 365 days, if they transfer from one District school to another school within the District. It was put in place to specifically discourage transferring due to athletics. I believe it was actually recently revised and will now match state law.


As for school choice...
- A couple years ago, my state's Legislature removed all school enrollment restrictions. You can now transfer to a different school at any point in the year and also no longer have to request a transfer by a certain date.
This has resulted in what was obviously predicted when the laws were proposed- many schools now struggle to predict enrollment, funding, and staffing for the upcoming year. And this impacts school districts that are seeing students leave as well as school districts that are in demand and students are wanting to attend. Its tough for all.
- We have open enrolled our kids into another district for 12 years now. So clearly I am OK with open enrollment. But I disagree with the free-for-all approach that my state now has. With the exception of founded bullying and harassment claims, I dont think students should be able to open enroll on a whim because that creates uncertainty.
- We reverse open enroll. We live in a city with a highly rated school district, but enroll into the urban metro district because even though test scores and other metrics are lower, there is a wider offering of educational subjects/opportunities at the HS level and there are more challenging classes as well. Regardless of which way the open enrollment goes though, I support the general idea.
- Tying District funding to property value and taxes is pretty bonkers when open enrollment exists. If everyone is free to enroll wherever, then it no longer makes sense to used property taxes within a District's boundaries to partially fund that District's services. The pool needs to be expanded, but it obviously wont be since those with higher property values would(and have) screamed that it is unfair.

 

[thatsbaseball]

Needs an RC Cola

Or

 

[DesotoCountyDawg]

Or
View attachment 572954

 

[DoggieDaddy13]

On Athletics...
- What is the rule in Mississippi for sitting out if you are on varsity and transfer to another school/district?
- My state has a 90 consecutive day rule, and summer months dont count. If you are on varsity and move, you are ineligible to play at your new school for 90 consecutive school days.
- One school district I know of, Cedar Rapids which is a larger one in the state, has had a District rule that makes students ineligible for 365 days, if they transfer from one District school to another school within the District. It was put in place to specifically discourage transferring due to athletics. I believe it was actually recently revised and will now match state law.



.... obviously wont be since those with higher property values would(and have) screamed that it is unfair.

So you don't believe people with higher property values should be allowed to scream about the unfairness of it all?

or just not be allowed to scream louder than those with less property value?

Can we acknowledge the greater contribution such people make to society and the economy and reward their children accordingly?

Let them SCREAM at the top of their higher valued lungs.

 

[mstateglfr]

So you don't believe people with higher property values should be allowed to scream about the unfairness of it all?

or just not be allowed to scream louder than those with less property value?

Can we acknowledge the greater contribution such people make to society and the economy and reward their children accordingly?

Let them SCREAM at the top of their higher valued lungs.

I am saying that when a system is set up to partially fund a school district with taxes based on property value, and an outside lever is pulled that disrupts the system(Legislature decides to create open enrollment without review and eligible at any point in the year) which effectively brings other property tax bases into consideration, then maybe the footprint for property tax should expand beyond a single school district. This is especially true in a metro where it is possible/realistic for kids to attend multiple school districts that are close by.

Its OK if you disagree, but it would be good to understand why you disagree. Why is it unfair?
I base my view purely on the current funding system and the reality that a change in law has effectively expanded district reach and blurred district lines within metros. As such, an adjustment to funding boundaries makes sense in some instances.
What do you base your view on?




As for your request that we acknowledge people with higher property values make greater contributions to society and the economy...well thats a helluva generalization and no I am not on board with such an acknowledgement. It is certainly possible that some people with higher property values make greater contributions to society and the economy when compared to people with lower property values, but I do not think that such a position is a given.
I would be very skeptical of a claim that social and economic contributions are proportionally tied directly to property tax value.

 

[LordMcBuckethead]

Every fiber of my conservative being supports school choice. Every student in Mississippi deserves a chance at a good education.

But reading that Collierville thread - school choice in MS would not be used to better education, it would be used to win football games. Disgusting. Just like someone said - college football is basically mercenaries at this point, high schools are quickly going that route.

My nephew was recruited in 5th grade to go to an "out of state" private school to play football two years later for middle school. Then public schools started coming around working the system to get him to play there.

I am not a big fan of school choice. You choose the school when you buy the house.

 

[QuadrupleOption]

Why. It's a follow up on a sports topic. We can have an adult conversation.

We are ruining college and high school sports. Missouri passed NIL for HIGH SCHOOL kids. Some running back is demanding $25k to play high school football.

They only get it because people with more money than sense indulge them. It's high school football. Dude needs to play for school pride and all the ladies that'll throw themselves at his jock and get over himself.

 

[Old Fart Dawg]

A&W is superior to Barq’s. That’s my story and I’m sticking to it

 

[DoggieDaddy13]

I would be very skeptical of a claim that social and economic contributions are proportionally tied directly to property tax value.

Oh, I am equally skeptical, just wanted to go ahead and put it out there.

 

[greenbean.sixpack]

I don't keep up with any news and I'm too lazy/dumb to read two pages of comments. What school choice?

Are we going to give families a certain dollar amount, that would normally be allocated to the pubic school system in their district, so the family can use that money for a private school?

Please explain this to me like I'm a Marine.

 

[tbaydog]

and chase it with a Dr. Pepper with peanuts in the bottle.

We did with Orange Crush or NuGrape,.

 

[Maroon Eagle]

Please explain this to me like I'm a Marine.

This made me laugh.

 

[The Cooterpoot]

Every fiber of my conservative being supports school choice. Every student in Mississippi deserves a chance at a good education.

But reading that Collierville thread - school choice in MS would not be used to better education, it would be used to win football games. Disgusting. Just like someone said - college football is basically mercenaries at this point, high schools are quickly going that route.

It should be the parents choice. If they've got a good ball player, let them to where football is a priority. If they're a great student, let them go where academics are great.

 

[Trojanbulldog19]

I thought this was a "books that will never be written" thread by the title

 

[Podgy]

No offense but don't be dense. We all know where anything political goes on this board and there is rarely a political conversation that ends well. Hopefully I am wrong, but I doubt it.

Did someone call for a moderator who is neutral on all issues? I'm your guy. O.K. I'm not that guy and I don't always see comments. Typically people can disagree in good faith until the personal attacks start or a favorite cause or politicians is made fun of. Guilty on a few occaisions.

 

[Podgy]

I thought this was a "books that will never be written" thread by the title

"Political Threads that last 7 pages on Sixpack" by Podgy

 

[Boom Boom]

School choice affects a lot more people than high school sports. By definition, the majority of students aren't athletic enough to play varsity high school sports, much less change schools for sports.

But I don't doubt that opponents of school choice will make bad-faith arguments of why school choice would lead to chaos in sports, and that's why poor families have to keep sending their kids to failing schools.

If i believed for a second that poor kids could actually switch en masse to better schools, then I'd probably support it. It seems to me to be a bad faith exercise in spending public money on private schools. Tell ya what, let's let kids/parents rank the schools they want, and let them go as space allows, with a lottery as necessary. Private schools get paid the public cost of attendance per student. No private tuition may be required. You for it, or was this all a bad faith exercise?

 

[mstateglfr]

I don't keep up with any news and I'm too lazy/dumb to read two pages of comments. What school choice?

Are we going to give families a certain dollar amount, that would normally be allocated to the pubic school system in their district, so the family can use that money for a private school?

Please explain this to me like I'm a Marine.

There is no singular way to do it.

Many states have dollars follow the student. If a student lives in District A and open enroll into District B, then the dollars for that student follow with them to District B.

As for private school, that too doesn't have a single universal approach. Many states keep public funds with public schools. Some states have recently moved towards public taxes being used for private education. This has been controversial for many reasons.
- public taxes are funding schools that are able to discriminate based on protected classes.
- some states don't require public funds that go to private schools to be accounted for or audited, even though the same dollars are legally required to be accounted for and audited when spent by public schools.
- many parochial schools have predictably increased tuition. They view this as effectively free money to them since families were already paying for tuition and now get $7000-8000 to help pay for each child.

 

[Lucifer Morningstar]

Did someone call for a moderator who is neutral on all issues? I'm your guy. O.K. I'm not that guy and I don't always see comments. Typically people can disagree in good faith until the personal attacks start or a favorite cause or politicians is made fun of. Guilty on a few occaisions.

No offense that is a very utopian way of thinking. I am just saying that most of time these types of discussions never end well.

 

[greenbean.sixpack]

There is no singular way to do it.

Many states have dollars follow the student. If a student lives in District A and open enroll into District B, then the dollars for that student follow with them to District B.

As for private school, that too doesn't have a single universal approach. Many states keep public funds with public schools. Some states have recently moved towards public taxes being used for private education. This has been controversial for many reasons.
- public taxes are funding schools that are able to discriminate based on protected classes.
- some states don't require public funds that go to private schools to be accounted for or audited, even though the same dollars are legally required to be accounted for and audited when spent by public schools.
- many parochial schools have predictably increased tuition. They view this as effectively free money to them since families were already paying for tuition and now get $7000-8000 to help pay for each child.

I thought school choice this was something MS is considering? How will the MS model work? I'm concerned It would be great for parents, but in the long run it'd be bad for many communities. At least in the 'Sip, good public schools and good communities go hand in hand.

 

[Podgy]

No offense that is a very utopian way of thinking. I am just saying that most of time these types of discussions never end well.

We can usually get 3 or maybe 4 pages before a cat fight breaks out.

 

[Podgy]

I thought school choice this was something MS is considering? How will the MS model work? I'm concerned It would be great for parents, but in the long run it'd be bad for many communities. At least in the 'Sip, good public schools and good communities go hand in hand.

I went to public schools my entire life, married well, a private school gal and my kids went to private school. We're wealthy enough to pay the tuition without having to sacrifice much. School choice has generally been for wealthy people. Considering the dismal state of some public schools, maybe change that.

 

[Maroon13]

I thought school choice this was something MS is considering? How will the MS model work? I'm concerned It would be great for parents, but in the long run it'd be bad for many communities. At least in the 'Sip, good public schools and good communities go hand in hand.

It's HB 1449. But it died without a vote. However if you want to read on it, here is a link.

https://magnoliatribune.com/2024/02...school-choice-program-in-mississippi-by-2029/

 

[ababyatemydingo]

It's HB 1449. But it died without a vote. However if you want to read on it, here is a link.

https://magnoliatribune.com/2024/02...school-choice-program-in-mississippi-by-2029/

as did HB 867. It died on April 2nd in committee. That was the bill allowing school choice. This conversation is moot. For this year, anyway.

 

[PK Dawg]

No different than choosing your home based on proximity to Texas road house. Let people live!

 

[pseudonym]

If i believed for a second that poor kids could actually switch en masse to better schools, then I'd probably support it. It seems to me to be a bad faith exercise in spending public money on private schools. Tell ya what, let's let kids/parents rank the schools they want, and let them go as space allows, with a lottery as necessary. Private schools get paid the public cost of attendance per student. No private tuition may be required. You for it, or was this all a bad faith exercise?

Not sure exactly what you mean, so I’ll just say what I mean:

Government funding of education would come down to a per student number. Parents can send their kids (and their government funding) to any participating school. Participating schools cannot charge above this amount. In other words, private schools can opt in or not.

For example, Jackson Academy opts in. A family in West Jackson sends their kid to JA. JA gets the per student government funding. No additional charge to the family. OR Jackson Academy doesn’t opt in. They can charge whatever they want and receive zero government funding.

I think some private schools would opt in, some wouldn’t.

 

[johnson86-1]

Again seems like everyone involved knew and no one appealed. There are several follow-up articles to be found where people speak on the behalf of the MHSAA. No one likes the way it ended. But again the point of this.. was it was brought up that schools are cut throat now... this wasnt a cut throat situation. Also the fact that NO ONE appealed, rings loudly.

Again hopefully the Tupelo admin has begun the process to change the rule... below is just on exerpt from someone that follow the track and field circuit closely.

Brock Kelly, a former state champion distance runner at Tupelo Christian, has been following Brown’s case closely. After speaking with Tillman on Monday, Kelly said he understands the rule’s intent: to keep Mississippi athletes competing mainly in the state.
“I feel like the MHSAA isn’t necessarily the bad guy here,” said Kelly, who now runs for Mississippi College. “I’m all for representing the athletes. The athletes need representation here. But the MHSAA has a rule, it’s in place, it was set in place in the guidebook, and they’re just trying to enforce it.”

It seems like it. But it’s still shocking to me that not a single reporter actually reported the actual rule being broken. You’d be surprised at how many people accept something. Dealt with many a bureaucrat that was adamant about what a rule was until it’s pointed out to them. Hell, I’ve dealt with things where I accepted the given practice that had been in place for over a decade without anybody realizing they weren’t applying the rule as written.

his parents seem like they’d care enough and be educated enough that they would actually make them point out the rule that is being broken, but it seems suspicious to me that every body talking about it is citing a rule that he did not break. It would be surprising but not completely shocking if they were applying some informal interpretation of the rule without actually considering whether the actual language of the rule says what they think it does.

 

[greenbean.sixpack]

It's HB 1449. But it died without a vote. However if you want to read on it, here is a link.

https://magnoliatribune.com/2024/02...school-choice-program-in-mississippi-by-2029/

Thanks! As it died, I'm certainly not gonna expend my few brain cells on readin' an thinkin'

 

[DesotoCountyDawg]

It would be a huge burden for somewhere like Desoto County. Good school district surrounded by not so good districts on three sides. The schools here are already busting at the seams. Theyre building the new Hernando High School right now and it’s supposed to be one of the biggest high school buildings in the state and there’s talk already that it’s not big enough for what they’re projecting.

 

[615dawg]

It would be a huge burden for somewhere like Desoto County. Good school district surrounded by not so good districts on three sides. The schools here are already busting at the seams. Theyre building the new Hernando High School right now and it’s supposed to be one of the biggest high school buildings in the state and there’s talk already that it’s not big enough for what they’re projecting.

My point is that in this situation, some coach that's been promoted to principal and his AD and football coach buddy is going to have a meeting at Memphis BBQ company in Southaven and decide that they need to raid Tunica and Tate county for all their football talent and start building a powerhouse. Meanwhile kids that grew up in their community get pushed out and start looking to go to other schools, and within a few years you have schools full of kids that don't care about the community they go to school in.

Mississippi can fix schools if you do this:

If you are a D or F school academically, your teams are banned from postseason play. If you are an F school for three consecutive years, you cannot field athletic teams. That will get the parents involved, which is the key factor in a good school. A few years ago, something like 60% of the teams in the Final Four in basketball were from failing schools.

PARENTS - STUDENTS - TEACHERS

Education boils down to a three legged stool. If you have all three (Madison, Oxford, Ocean Springs), you have great schools. If you have two of the three, you usually fare very well. When you only have one, its an uphill battle. Schools that have zero - that's what school choice needs to be for.

 

[mstateglfr]

Not sure exactly what you mean, so I’ll just say what I mean:

Government funding of education would come down to a per student number. Parents can send their kids (and their government funding) to any participating school. Participating schools cannot charge above this amount. In other words, private schools can opt in or not.

For example, Jackson Academy opts in. A family in West Jackson sends their kid to JA. JA gets the per student government funding. No additional charge to the family. OR Jackson Academy doesn’t opt in. They can charge whatever they want and receive zero government funding.

I think some private schools would opt in, some wouldn’t.

If parochial/private/segregation schools accept public funds, then they need to follow public spending laws and also follow the acceptance policies of public schools.
- Any private school accepting public funds needs to be able to track those public funds, show procurement processes comply with state/federal laws, and open their books to the standard auditing schedule. Those who arent willing to do this or continually fail audits should not be allowed to receive public funds for a certain number of years.
- Any private school accepting public funds needs to follow state and federal laws pertaining to discrimination and acceptance/enrollment of students. If a school wont accept kids with physical or mental disabilities, they dont receive public funds. If a school wont accept kids with IEPs, they dont receive public funds. If a school wont accept kids due to religion, they dont receive public funds. If a school wont accept kids due to gender identity or sexual orientation, they dont receive public funds.


The reality is that student cost is the average and if a large group of socially mobile kids leaves a district, they will overwhelmingly be on the lower side of that cost average. This then leaves a public district fewer dollars to educate kids that cost more.
^ this isnt an opinion, it is a documented reality.
Tax dollars must be traceable, must be audited, and schools accepting public tax dollars from state and federal government must comply with non-discrimination laws.
To do anything different is irresponsible.

 

[Drebin]

I like the thread title because I believe in the power of the Pack. We can make a difference on here. If Bill Maher can see glimpses of the light, I am still holding out hope for dorndawg.

I'm afraid dorn is a lost cause.

But he's OUR lost cause.

 

[Drebin]

I don't know where you live, but high school sports in a lot of areas are more cut throat than they should be. The kid from Tupelo being turned in by Pearl for running in a sport that Mississippi doesn't even have, thus disqualifying him. The Jackson area private schools are basically recruiting the best talent. Coaches are being made principals and even superintendents with zero education administration skills, etc.

This stuff has been going on for a long time. Back when Olive Branch was a state power they were transferring kids down from Memphis and putting their families up in the trailer park behind the city park so they had residence established in the district. Nothing is new under the sun.

 

[dorndawg]

OUR lost cause.

Drebin is a closet reb*

 

[DesotoCountyDawg]

This stuff has been going on for a long time. Back when Olive Branch was a state power they were transferring kids down from Memphis and putting their families up in the trailer park behind the city park so they had residence established in the district. Nothing is new under the sun.

There were several players on that Horn Lake football state championship team from Tunica.

 

[Drebin]

Drebin is a closet reb*

I'll admit...I really like their women.

 

[HuntDawg]

My point is that in this situation, some coach that's been promoted to principal and his AD and football coach buddy is going to have a meeting at Memphis BBQ company in Southaven and decide that they need to raid Tunica and Tate county for all their football talent and start building a powerhouse. Meanwhile kids that grew up in their community get pushed out and start looking to go to other schools, and within a few years you have schools full of kids that don't care about the community they go to school in.

Mississippi can fix schools if you do this:

If you are a D or F school academically, your teams are banned from postseason play. If you are an F school for three consecutive years, you cannot field athletic teams. That will get the parents involved, which is the key factor in a good school. A few years ago, something like 60% of the teams in the Final Four in basketball were from failing schools.

PARENTS - STUDENTS - TEACHERS

Education boils down to a three legged stool. If you have all three (Madison, Oxford, Ocean Springs), you have great schools. If you have two of the three, you usually fare very well. When you only have one, its an uphill battle. Schools that have zero - that's what school choice needs to be for.

Youre serious?

So youre going to punish the athletes for a failing school?
Why not punish the step team, the band, the choir, the drama club-- why the athletes? Is it the athletes and coaches fault that schools fail? You do realize that MOST of a school and student body arent made up of coaches and athletes right?? so lets punish them....

Certainly glad you arent running any part of the education system. You obvious have a very biased stereotype of coaches. One of the best superintendants in the state was a former coach.

This has got to be one of the dumbest takes ever......its like saying.... Hey if the football team fails to make the playoffs 3 years in a row.. guess what... we are going to shut the english department down....

 

[Drebin]

Youre serious?

So youre going to punish the athletes for a failing school?
Why not punish the step team, the band, the choir, the drama club-- why the athletes? Is it the athletes and coaches fault that schools fail? You do realize that MOST of a school and student body arent made up of coaches and athletes right?? so lets punish them.... This has got to be one of the dumbest takes ever.

Certainly glad you arent running any part of the education system. You obvious have a very biased stereotype of coaches. One of the best superintendants in the state was a former coach.

You're completely missing the nuance in his argument. The root cause here is parents not getting engaged and holding schools/admins accountable.

 

[HuntDawg]

You're completely missing the nuance in his argument. The root cause here is parents not getting engaged and holding schools/admins accountable.

Thats fair. Parent involvement is very much key.

But blaming that on coaches that become principals.. or saying we shouldnt play athetlics or ban schools from having athletic teams is the way to acheive this is down right silly and an AWFUL take.

I mean 5 girls and 8 boys make up the golf team. They have a team GPA of 3.75. ACT scores of 25 plus. But sorry guys you cant play for state or you cant even play at all next season because your school (the other 500-1000 kids) are failing........ Boy thats a way to do things.