Mays was a better base runner. By a huge margin.More fiction. Mays stole more bases than Aaron but he was not a better base runner. Their stolen base success percentage was the same.
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Mays was a better base runner. By a huge margin.More fiction. Mays stole more bases than Aaron but he was not a better base runner. Their stolen base success percentage was the same.
Mays was a great center fielder. His put out totals were huge. Mays was a better outfielder. There is no real argument. Aaron was good, but Mays was great. Mays played center field for a reason. He got to balls nobody else could get to.Mays lifetime fielding percentage was .981 and Aaron’s was .980. Aaron had a few more assists and a few less errors during his career than Mays. So what lots of players win/won Gold Gloves based on reputation every year.
Interestingly Mantle said Aaron was the best player of his era and never got enough credit.Cab not argue with the list of great outfields in the 60s, but I believe that Mickey Mantle was on a par or superior to Mays and Mantle. Don't compare statistics because Mantle played for many years with severe leg problems that limited his playing time.
Mays was a great center fielder. His put out totals were huge. Mays was a better outfielder. There is no real argument. Aaron was good, but Mays was great. Mays played center field for a reason. He got to balls nobody else could get to.
Leo Durocher played and coached from 1925 until 1973. What follows is him on the greatest player he ever saw.
And the greatest catch ever made.
Clemente also had the highest cumulative batting average for the decade of the '60s.Your list of outfielders in the 60's is a good one, but I would add Roberto Clemente who is, by nearly all accounts, the best defensive right fielder ever to play the game. He won 12 gold gloves (in a row), tying Mays for the most by an outfielder, and the last of those was in 1972, the year he died.
Which WAR are you talking about. Too many to keep up with. Besides this WAR stuff was an off shoot of the guy, Bill James, who claimed that there is no difference between a strikeout and any other out. As I pointed out before, Aaron had a few more assists and a few less errors than Mays and a .980 vs .981 fielding percentage. He also had a higher batting average, 95 more homers and 388 more RBI than Mays while each played 23 seasons. But hey if you googled it and saw it on the internet, it must be gospel. Me I will go with Mantle’s opinion rather than google.Willie Mays' career WAR 156.1
Hank Aaron's career WAR 143.1
Willie Mays 13 Gold Gloves in CF
Hank Aaron 3 Gold Gloves in RF
10 reasons Willie Mays is the greatest ever
Top 25 players in MLB All Time (Hank comes in at #3 while Willie comes in at #2)
MS Bing Co-pilot list of greatest MLB players in history (Aaron #3, Mays #2 and Ruth #1)
If you google Greatest MLB player in history, practically every link has Aaron #3, Mays #2 and Ruth #1. I found one that had Aaron # 5, Mays #3, Ruth #2, and Bonds #1. Let's throw that one out. The consensus is Mays was better than Aaron.
With nobody on base a strikeout is no different than any other out. With two out, a strikeout is no different than any other out. The worst outs are double plays; you’d rather strike out than hit into a double play.Which WAR are you talking about. Too many to keep up with. Besides this WAR stuff was an off shoot of the guy, Bill James, who claimed that there is no difference between a strikeout and any other out. As I pointed out before, Aaron had a few more assists and a few less errors than Mays and a .980 vs .981 fielding percentage. He also had a higher batting average, 95 more homers and 388 more RBI than Mays while each played 23 seasons. But hey if you googled it and saw it on the internet, it must be gospel. Me I will go with Mantle’s opinion rather than google.
Slight correction. Mays had 12 Gold Glove Awards which ties him with Clemente among outfielders.Willie Mays' career WAR 156.1
Hank Aaron's career WAR 143.1
Willie Mays 13 Gold Gloves in CF
Hank Aaron 3 Gold Gloves in RF
10 reasons Willie Mays is the greatest ever
Top 25 players in MLB All Time (Hank comes in at #3 while Willie comes in at #2)
MS Bing Co-pilot list of greatest MLB players in history (Aaron #3, Mays #2 and Ruth #1)
If you google Greatest MLB player in history, practically every link has Aaron #3, Mays #2 and Ruth #1. I found one that had Aaron # 5, Mays #3, Ruth #2, and Bonds #1. Let's throw that one out. The consensus is Mays was better than Aaron.
It can also be argued that Willie would have hit more HR's than Aaron if they played in each other's ballparks.Slight correction. Mays had 12 Gold Glove Awards which ties him with Clemente among outfielders.
It could be argued Aaron would have had many more had he not played the same position, right field, as Clemente.
Most Gold Glove Awards at each position
The Rawlings Gold Glove Award has a long and rich history. It's a great honor just to win one of these over a Major League career, but there are some players in baseball history who are in the top echelon when it comes to sparkling defense. Here's a look atwww.mlb.com
You might have heard about the Red Sox passing on Mays (they gave him a tryout). Imagine Mays playing with Williams for the better part of a decade, in Fenway Park.It can also be argued that Willie would have hit more HR's than Aaron if they played in each other's ballparks.
This reminded me of a lesser known story, in Bruce Kulick’s “To Every Thing a Season: Shibe Park and Urban Philadelphia, 1909-1976:” The A’s had a chance to sign Larry Doby, Minnie Minoso, and Aaron for $13,500 total. “If Mr. Mack had signed Aaron, Doby, and Minoso, the A’s would still be in Philadelphia.”You might have heard about the Red Sox passing on Mays (they gave him a tryout). Imagine Mays playing with Williams for the better part of a decade, in Fenway Park.
Here’s a stronger statement: with nobody on base or with two out, all outs are created equal. The best outs are those which move up a runner. The worst outs are triple plays, followed by double plays.With nobody on base a strikeout is no different than any other out. With two out, a strikeout is no different than any other out. The worst outs are double plays; you’d rather strike out than hit into a double play.
Aaron was a good right fielder with a great arm. Willie was an all time great fielder. IDK about the fielding percentages. Willie got to balls others didn’t have a chance of reaching.Mays lifetime fielding percentage was .981 and Aaron’s was .980. Aaron had a few more assists and a few less errors during his career than Mays. So what lots of players win/won Gold Gloves based on reputation every year.
If you want to argue that a pre leg injury Mantle was the best of the bunch, I can’t argue. Fact is Mickey didn’t have many years in center before he got hurt. With today’s medicine Who knows what Mantle could have accomplished.Cab not argue with the list of great outfields in the 60s, but I believe that Mickey Mantle was on a par or superior to Mays and Mantle. Don't compare statistics because Mantle played for many years with severe leg problems that limited his playing time.
Aaron had durability on his side. 1500 more at bats. I don’t argue with his greatness. Mays was a spectacular athlete with amazing gifts. Those gifts made him unique, but they also burned out in his last years. I don’t doubt 700 homers though if he didn’t play in an ice box on the ocean.It can also be argued that Willie would have hit more HR's than Aaron if they played in each other's ballparks.
Players have been using performance enhancing substances (banned or not banned) since the early days of the game.This discussion is fun, but it makes me sad in a way. The steroid era denied us a fair comparison of these players with people like Barry Bonds. When you look at pictures of Bonds with the Pirates and then with the Giants you see what chemistry produced. He looks like two different people. I feel the stats from 1990 to 2005 almost have to be tossed. It’s not fair to the Mantles, Williams, and Dimaggios.
This is true but steroids were a step above.Players have been using performance enhancing substances (banned or not banned) since the early days of the game.
Performance enhancing? Maybe stuff like speed, but nothing equivalent to roids. With them we had body enhancing.Players have been using performance enhancing substances (banned or not banned) since the early days of the game.
I agree, just pointing it out. Also if you think players from the 20's-80's wouldn't have used steroids were they available, I would disagree.Performance enhancing? Maybe stuff like speed, but nothing equivalent to roids. With them we had body enhancing.
Gee thanks for that insight. How is a strikeout with a runner on first with no one out as opposed to putting the ball in play and advancing the runner to second?With nobody on base a strikeout is no different than any other out. With two out, a strikeout is no different than any other out. The worst outs are double plays; you’d rather strike out than hit into a double play.
Precisely.Slight correction. Mays had 12 Gold Glove Awards which ties him with Clemente among outfielders.
It could be argued Aaron would have had many more had he not played the same position, right field, as Clemente.
Most Gold Glove Awards at each position
The Rawlings Gold Glove Award has a long and rich history. It's a great honor just to win one of these over a Major League career, but there are some players in baseball history who are in the top echelon when it comes to sparkling defense. Here's a look atwww.mlb.com
I knew this nonsense would come up sooner or later. Before his final season in Milwaukee Aaron hit 379 homers at home and 366 on the road. But hey why let facts get in the way of a good narrative.It can also be argued that Willie would have hit more HR's than Aaron if they played in each other's ballparks.
You win Karen. Aaron > Mays.I knew this nonsense would come up sooner or later. Before his final season in Milwaukee Aaron hit 379 homers at home and 366 on the road. But hey why let facts get in the way of a good narrative.
You really want to compare the "launching pad" in Atlanta to Candlestick Park?I knew this nonsense would come up sooner or later. Before his final season in Milwaukee Aaron hit 379 homers at home and 366 on the road. But hey why let facts get in the way of a good narrative.
Really? Aaron made the same plays in the field with ease and didn’t show boat like Mays with basket catches. As I pointed out elsewhere Aaron had a few more assist and a few less errors lifetime than Mays which doesn’t support the claim that Mays and an almost identical fielding percentage doesn’t support the claim that Mays was a supetior fielder than Aaron. The statistics DO confirm that Aaron was a superior offensive player than Mays. As I also said before, all of this is a matter of opinion. My point is that those who claim Mays was “unquestionably” the best player is nonsense.Aaron was a good right fielder with a great arm. Willie was an all time great fielder. IDK about the fielding percentages. Willie got to balls others didn’t have a chance of reaching.
Oh just stop. Mays homers on the road and at home were almost identical Last I checked all players play the same number of games at home and on the road. Funny how those “amazing gifts” didn’t translate into 95 more homers and 388 more RBI in the same number of seasons as Aaron. I saw them both play and Aaron was an exceptional athlete as well; he just didn’t show boat.Aaron had durability on his side. 1500 more at bats. I don’t argue with his greatness. Mays was a spectacular athlete with amazing gifts. Those gifts made him unique, but they also burned out in his last years. I don’t doubt 700 homers though if he didn’t play in an ice box on the ocean.
1500 more at bats for Aaron.Oh just stop. Mays homers on the road and at home were almost identical
Gee thanks for that insight. How is a strikeout with a runner on first with no one out as opposed to putting the ball in play and advancing the runner to second?
Why the snark? I covered your question later in the thread.Here’s a stronger statement: with nobody on base or with two out, all outs are created equal. The best outs are those which move up a runner. The worst outs are triple plays, followed by double plays.
This is just me being me.
You forgot "The Great One" (according to Bob Prince) Roberto Clemente.Mays, Mantle, Aaron, Yaz, Rose, Brock, Oliva, Williams, Robinson. Quite a group of outfielders to watch back in the sixties.
Then there were the pitchers. Gibson, Drysdale, Koufax, Seaver, Bunning, Marichal, McLain, Niekro, Palmer, McNally, Jenkins, Tiant, Perry.
Great time to grow up and collect baseball cards.
When you look at Ruth's numbers you just have to shake your head. Here was a guy who spent his first years as a pitcher, a very good one at that with World Series records to his credit. Then he goes and becomes a full time outfielder and changes the way the game is played. He even missed long stretches due to injury. Amazing.You win Karen. Aaron > Mays.
Babe Ruth absolutely CRUSHES him though.
Uh. From Wikipedia - "The phrase "at each position" was not strictly accurate until 2011, when the awards were changed to specify individual awards for left fielder, center fielder, and right fielder. Previously, the prize was presented to three outfielders irrespective of their specific position
I heard that Richie Ashburn had the highest cumulative batting average for the 1950s.Clemente also had the highest cumulative batting average for the decade of the '60s.
Gold gloves were awarded differently prior to 2011. Wikipedia - "The phrase "at each position" was not strictly accurate until 2011, when the awards were changed to specify individual awards for left fielder, center fielder, and right fielder. Previously, the prize was presented to three outfielders irrespective of their specific position."Precisely.
More to the original point, Bill James never said that a strikeout is no different than any other out. How do I know? Because, statistically, it’s not true, and James is all about statistics. Plus, I spent the last half hour looking for James saying something like this. There’s nothing out there.Why the snark? I covered your question later in the thread.
You could flatten your glove, and place it against the chain link fence in the bullpen in Candlestick - and the wind would hold it there. I would say the LH hitters suffered the most though.Two things to consider. First, the narrative of Mays was born in New York. Playing there was a huge boost for those that enjoyed the attention. He did. It could also be a detriment for those who would not embrace it. I can’t say with certainty how Aaron would have managed playing a meaningful amount of games in New York.
Second, if you ever had the chance to talk to Mays, he would tell you about the physical challenges that presented themselves playing in Candlestick. He once shared that his first wife had certain ailments that he attributed to her going to the games and sitting in that weather. Playing there took a physical toll.
For me, I can’t separate the two. I would have taken Mays in his prime over Aaron in his prime. I can’t think of anything that Aaron did that Mays didn’t do slightly better. I think Aaron was a better pure hitter, Mays had better power. Defensively and running the bases, Mays was better. Both are baseball royalty, give me either of them. It was an honor and a privilege seeing both play.
I was curious and ran the numbers and Ashburn hit .313 from 1950-59. For those same 10 seasons, Stan Musial hit .330 and Ted Williams hit .336. Clemente hit .328 from 1960-69.I heard that Richie Ashburn had the highest cumulative batting average for the 1950s.