43 percent of Masters Degrees have a negative ROI…

[BulldogBlitz]

At the end of the BS in ChE, they asked if I would come back for a masters.

Uh, no. I saw masters folks abused. I felt the only benefit for an advanced degree at the time was as a PhD and i knew I did not have the stomach for that. I was glad to leave and get to work.

 

[johnson86-1]

On average college grads make significantly more than high school grads especially over their lifetimes. A college degree from a decent public uni is worth it. College grads are more likely to get married and stay married and are more likely to become millionaires. There are numerous, better outcomes for college grads compared to high school grads.

Most of those outcomes are a result of the qualities making people likely to achieve those outcomes also being the qualities that make it likely they go to and complete college. Most of what's not is simply a result of credentialism. The degree only made a big difference because we use it as a gatekeeper for so many jobs. Certainly there are jobs where you actually learn relevant information in college that allows you to do the job (accounting, engineering, finance, etc) but that's a minority of jobs.

 

[onewoof]

Southern Miss is big into online education. I don’t know the numbers though.

 

[RocketDawg]

At the end of the BS in ChE, they asked if I would come back for a masters.

Uh, no. I saw masters folks abused. I felt the only benefit for an advanced degree at the time was as a PhD and i knew I did not have the stomach for that. I was glad to leave and get to work.

I got a master's but I did it part time at night at UAH and didn't have to pay for it. Undergrad was much more difficult.

 

[Podgy]

Most of those outcomes are a result of the qualities making people likely to achieve those outcomes also being the qualities that make it likely they go to and complete college. Most of what's not is simply a result of credentialism. The degree only made a big difference because we use it as a gatekeeper for so many jobs. Certainly there are jobs where you actually learn relevant information in college that allows you to do the job (accounting, engineering, finance, etc) but that's a minority of jobs.

Those qualities and the college degree, the credential. Women with college degrees also want to marry men with college degrees. Don't discount the importance of a college degree, something that is better to have than a high school diploma.

 

[Podgy]

View attachment 575010

An amazing academic achievement. Something like 36 hours one summer. Pretty good ROI on that because it got us an SEC tourney championship, a Final Four and he got an NBA contract. Not sure what he's up to now

 

[HulksStache]

I just want to chime in with the idea that for many people, measuring the ROI of advanced study in dollars alone may miss the point, or at least may overlook the underlying motivations of the person investing in it and how they are measuring their return.

It's like trying to measure the financial ROI of learning to play the piano, reading the Bible, or buying my Mom a Mother's Day card.
Fair enough, I have been paid to play the piano. But overall, what I invested the things like this -- whether it took a long time or mere moments -- was not repaid in dollars but in personal satisfaction, a sense of accomplishment, and the ability to understand things that I'm interested in at a deeper level.

All that said, I don't think the taxpayer should be on the hook to pay for my exploration of personal scholarly fulfillment.

Just saying that the desired outcome/ROI isn't always $.

Sir, this is a Wendy’s.

 

[Boom Boom]

Most of those outcomes are a result of the qualities making people likely to achieve those outcomes also being the qualities that make it likely they go to and complete college. Most of what's not is simply a result of credentialism. The degree only made a big difference because we use it as a gatekeeper for so many jobs. Certainly there are jobs where you actually learn relevant information in college that allows you to do the job (accounting, engineering, finance, etc) but that's a minority of jobs.

Somewhat, but we can't discount signaling. Getting a degree shows a candidate has a certain amount of ability to learn, stick with tasks, stay focused despite distractions, have a stable enough homelife/support to be reliable, etc. I'm college I saw many a smart kid come in that flamed out due to distractions or not having the ability to go to a minimum of classes without the regimented life of HS and home. A degreed candidate is just lower risk than a non-degreed one, from a hiring perspective.

 

[RivaDawg]

My MBA from State was more about developing me as a person. It was an accomplishment that I wanted to achieve. Did it make me more money? No clue, but it was something that I did for me.

I wanted to pursue a PhD, but was told I’d have to be a full time student and that was not an option at the time.

 

[Trojanbulldog19]

I would say get a masters if you want to expand your expertise in something hence the master or if you want to start honing in on something of study.
I was enrolled in state masters program until I got a job. I was doing it because I didn't have a job yet but was definitely not a good idea because I had no idea what I really wanted to try to do with except just stay in school.
After I got my job I backed out after I worked a while I decided I wanted to expand my education in a certain area and researched programs that could do that and fit my schedule etc.
I would say that it has helped several of my masters class mates and myself get promotions or better jobs just in comparison with others who have the same or similar work experience. It's not necessarily the degree but what you learn and what it teaches you to do. Not all masters degrees are equal even being in the same field. I've met people who have a masters degree in the same field but only know the basics. So when hiring I do a lot of research on a program even though it's pretty obvious in interviews. I would say experience counts a lot in a field but if you work in stem further education never hurts. Now phd, I would say that really only helps if you are in research.

now I have known others to get masters that just did it to get a masters with no real plan in weird stuff like business leadership management or something and it's not helped them at all given their field. The only way they have gotten promoted is by experience and changing businesses a lot.

I would say my experience plus my masters has gotten me in the room for a lot interviews over the years since I got it. I would say in STEM field it's a good idea.

I did start an MBA not long ago at local university I did not think it was worth it even though I was getting a massive discount. I think that was more in the program or university just being weird.

 

[WilCoDawg]

Bachelor's degree is far from worthless. You must not know many engineers, architects, accountants etc. Obviously career paths can take different turns along the way, but it usually starts with getting a job in the field that you graduated in.

I do know people in those fields. I know way more people in other fields with degrees that are unrelated. Surely you know just as many as I do.

 

[WilCoDawg]

This. Nearly every white collar job in the country requires a bachelor's these days. I know plenty of folks who have done well without one, but they are usually working really hard with their hands or have an entrepreneurial spirit where they were willing to take the risk of tying their personal income to their ability to make it on their own...

My old boss and mentor put it best. If you want a good job with a good company there are 3 ways to do it:

Start out at the bottom of the bottom, bust your áss, and eventually move your way up to the middle.
Get a college degree, start out at the bottom of the middle, and do just enough to eventually move to the top of the middle.
Get a college degree, start out at the bottom of the middle, and bust your *** to rise to the top of the top.

For most of us, the bachelor's degree is the ante to sit at the big poker table.

You’re missing my point. A degree is essentially a piece of paper saying that you went four more years to school after high school. The education part is more often unrelated to what a lot of people do. You even admitted to being one of those people. I honestly use nothing I learned from MSU in my field.

 

[WilCoDawg]

Close to 100% where I worked.

Go to a hospital and ask what the doctors BS is in. Your field is obvi very specialized. I get it. You’re a 10%er.
I‘m starting to realize a lot of people don’t know many people outside of work very well.

 

[PooPopsBaldHead]

You’re missing my point. A degree is essentially a piece of paper saying that you went four more years to school after high school. The education part is more often unrelated to what a lot of people do. You even admitted to being one of those people. I honestly use nothing I learned from MSU in my field.

Not really. I used my degree for a decade in my field. Took several promotions in a fortune 100 company, had said company pay for my MBA at a top tier (at least at the time) BSchool and used my position, experience, and expertise (much of which came from my education) to start my own business eventually. Simultaneously my wife used her degree to move up in her field and eventually has become an exec at a public company, still in her field.

Just about everyone I keep up with with an undergrad degree from State is using it in their field or have advanced beyond it. Let's just look at my various friends I can think of from State and their majors. Electrical Engineering (Works as an electrical engineer), Biological Engineering (Doctor), Accounting (Auditor for a bank), Forestry (Works for Forest Service) Finance (Works at a Bank), Education (Still teaching), Landscape Architecture (Owns a landscaping company), Surveying (Surveyor), Industrial Technology (plant manager for a factory), Business Administration x2 (Logistics manager for a company, regional manager for a retail business), and Political Science (retired from the military.)

I would bet more the half of college graduates use their education for their field. The liberal arts folks being the exception or the people that want to go back to their hometown instead of blazing their own trail. I mean nobody goes to college to come back home and run the local waste management outfit, but somebody has to do it.***

 

[johnson86-1]

Somewhat, but we can't discount signaling. Getting a degree shows a candidate has a certain amount of ability to learn, stick with tasks, stay focused despite distractions, have a stable enough homelife/support to be reliable, etc. I'm college I saw many a smart kid come in that flamed out due to distractions or not having the ability to go to a minimum of classes without the regimented life of HS and home. A degreed candidate is just lower risk than a non-degreed one, from a hiring perspective.

That’s all true (although I think grade inflation is weakening those signals considerably, although strengthening the negative signak of not completing college) but it shouldn’t be legal for companies to use college as a screening tool but extremely risky legally to use test results. It should be legal to use either or legally risky to use either. It’s just crazy and hugely wasteful to tie up 4+ years of young people’s lives and tens of thousands (if not $100k+) in a signaling exercise.

 

[PooPopsBaldHead]

That’s all true (although I think grade inflation is weakening those signals considerably, although strengthening the negative signak of not completing college) but it shouldn’t be legal for companies to use college as a screening tool but extremely risky legally to use test results. It should be legal to use either or legally risky to use either. It’s just crazy and hugely wasteful to tie up 4+ years of young people’s lives and tens of thousands (if not $100k+) in a signaling exercise.

It's not really "risky" legally to have aptitude or personality testing. Almost every public company in the country require them. I have taken a dozen probably... Including one for potentially buying a franchise. Briggs-Myers jumps out to me as one I have taken in nearly every interview process.

From HBR Article:

Summary.
Maybe you haven’t had to take a test as part of a hiring process, but you probably will in your next job search. About 76% of organizations with more than 100 employees rely on assessments for external hiring, especially for senior positions. It helps to know what companies are measuring and the tools they’re using.

Competence.​

Aptitude tests can evaluate skills, abilities, and potential. Some companies use situational judgment tests, which present scenarios that correspond to particular roles.

Work ethic.​

Self-report questionnaires can assess traits such as ambition and reliability.

Emotional intelligence.​

Psychological tests, scenario-based tests, and performance tasks can measure empathy, self-awareness, and emotional literacy.
You can set yourself up for success by practicing, scheduling tests for the time of day when you’re most focused and alert, and answering questions in a way that presents your best self.
Tests aren’t just for the employer’s benefit. They can also reveal how things work in an organization and which traits matter most—invaluable information in any job search.

 

[johnson86-1]

It's not really "risky" legally to have aptitude or personality testing. Almost every public company in the country require them. I have taken a dozen probably... Including one for potentially buying a franchise. Briggs-Myers jumps out to me as one I have taken in nearly every interview process.

From HBR Article:

Summary.
Maybe you haven’t had to take a test as part of a hiring process, but you probably will in your next job search. About 76% of organizations with more than 100 employees rely on assessments for external hiring, especially for senior positions. It helps to know what companies are measuring and the tools they’re using.

Competence.​

Aptitude tests can evaluate skills, abilities, and potential. Some companies use situational judgment tests, which present scenarios that correspond to particular roles.

Work ethic.​

Self-report questionnaires can assess traits such as ambition and reliability.

Emotional intelligence.​

Psychological tests, scenario-based tests, and performance tasks can measure empathy, self-awareness, and emotional literacy.
You can set yourself up for success by practicing, scheduling tests for the time of day when you’re most focused and alert, and answering questions in a way that presents your best self.
Tests aren’t just for the employer’s benefit. They can also reveal how things work in an organization and which traits matter most—invaluable information in any job search.

Personality testing is probably fine as I'm not aware of anybody claiming personality tests result in disparate impacts. Same with self-report questionnaires and emotional intelligence. But if you do aptitude or intelligence tests, you are entering a risky area. You have to have tests you used validated for the job in question which of course is hard for small and medium organizations to do economically. And even if they do get a test validated for a job, they are still open to a claim that there are methods available that would not have a disparate impact. Much easier and cheaper to use college degree as a screening tool, which just puts all of the cost of screening on the potential applicants.

Duke Power was a ridiculous decision to begin with, but now that college costs have escalated into the ridiculous (in part because of the Duke Power decision), it's ridiculous and destructive for society.

 

[Boom Boom]

. It’s just crazy and hugely wasteful to tie up 4+ years of young people’s lives and tens of thousands (if not $100k+) in a signaling exercise.

Maybe, though hardly anywhere near the most crazy or wasteful things in our current society. But also, most 1st world cultures consider an education a good unto itself, far beyond its "ROI".

Also, colleges have gotten better at providing to "alternative path" students, or whatever their current euphemism is. To enable working but also progressing towards a degree via night or online classes. More can be done of course.

The debt part is crazy, the interest on the debt part is Uber crazy. Just straight up govt endorsed exploitation for rich peoples profit.

 

[dawgstudent]

Most people outgrow their degrees eventually. I used mine, did well, started my own business somewhat related to the degree, sold it, bought another business completely unrelated and soon enough I will start a small fire late at night and burn this one to the ground for the insurance money. American dream right there.

@FBI - please document.

 

[johnson86-1]

Maybe, though hardly anywhere near the most crazy or wasteful things in our current society. But also, most 1st world cultures consider an education a good unto itself, far beyond its "ROI".

Most of our money isn't spent on education though. It's spent on lifestyle and amenities.

Also, colleges have gotten better at providing to "alternative path" students, or whatever their current euphemism is. To enable working but also progressing towards a degree via night or online classes. More can be done of course.

The debt part is crazy, the interest on the debt part is Uber crazy. Just straight up govt endorsed exploitation for rich peoples profit.

The interest is a pretty sweet deal for students. If I went and got a $100k signature loan, the interest would probably be north of 9% if I could even get it. And it wouldn't really be just a signature loan as they'd certainly require that I give them a list of assets that are unencumbered if they even let me not pledge them explicitly. And it's even sweeter now that they are forgiving a bunch of debts held by relatively rich/affluent people.

The problem is the government guaranteeing student loans with nobody doing any underwriting. They could have put colleges on the hook for 10% of tuition paid in the event of default on a loan. Could have capped student loan growth with inflation to force colleges to try to control costs. Could have done lots of things. Instead we just used cheap government money and federal guarantees to give both students and colleges incentives to be irresponsible regarding cost.

 

[johnson86-1]

@FBI - please document.

Are you implying there is something untoward about PooPops business plan? How dare you!? How dare you!

You take advantage of the Wednesday two for one. Maybe you even get there early to beat cover. You eat the giant cheese sticks (probably multiple orders per visit if we're being honest here). You head to late night emboldened to make some bad decisions by the succor provided by their lax ID policy. Then, while the ashes of its corpse are still smoldering (in the minds of state alumni of a certain age), you slander Flo and Eddies and its business plan. I expected better. The reputation of sixpack is tarnished by such ingratitude.

 

[PooPopsBaldHead]

@FBI - please document.

Its just a little mild insurance fraud... I'll make sure the building is empty. I honestly don't see what the big deal is. I'm 500 yards from the Smokejumper base, they'll put it out before it spreads. Good grief, some of y'all have to loosen your scruples a bit. It's like you are rooting for the insurance companies or something.

 

[QuadrupleOption]

If you are bored in general IT, move into cybersecurity. You won't have time to consider whether you are bored or not...

Oh I have plenty to do at work. I was talking about in my personal life. Watching TV/playing video games gets boring after awhile.

 

[horshack.sixpack]

Oh I have plenty to do at work. I was talking about in my personal life. Watching TV/playing video games gets boring after awhile.

I've got a low paying ($0) pool maintenance gig that will help you get your steps in...

 

[QuadrupleOption]

I've got a low paying ($0) pool maintenance gig that will help you get your steps in...

Heh. I'd rather write papers about economics.

 

[garddog]

Degrees are gate keepers. You can end the sentence there.

High school is just as bad, most should either be in college or working at 16.

The one degree that is needed badly is IE.

There is a severe lack of people that understand logistics and operations. I get paid damn well to do it and am self taught, but I see colleagues get fired from other companies and replaced with college grads because it's cheaper.

Engineering is notorious for the 15 year life cycle at the big companies. Hire a college grad for half the money of the 15 year person.

 

[horshack.sixpack]

Degrees are gate keepers. You can end the sentence there.

High school is just as bad, most should either be in college or working at 16.

The one degree that is needed badly is IE.

There is a severe lack of people that understand logistics and operations. I get paid damn well to do it and am self taught, but I see colleagues get fired from other companies and replaced with college grads because it's cheaper.

Engineering is notorious for the 15 year life cycle at the big companies. Hire a college grad for half the money of the 15 year person.

At a minimum a college degree does this:

1) Proves to a company that you can learn.
2) Proves to a company that you are willing/able to push through adversity to achieve a result.
3) Proves to a company that you can work with others, or at least among others who are different.
4) Hands you some skills to use in your workplace, sometimes very specific or sometimes very general.

 

[Maroon Eagle]

Degrees are gate keepers. You can end the sentence there.

High school is just as bad, most should either be in college or working at 16.

16 largely means unskilled labor unless you’re advocating apprenticeship programs.

Otherwise I’m agreeing with horshack’s previous response…

At a minimum a college degree does this:

1) Proves to a company that you can learn.
2) Proves to a company that you are willing/able to push through adversity to achieve a result.
3) Proves to a company that you can work with others, or at least among others who are different.
4) Hands you some skills to use in your workplace, sometimes very specific or sometimes very general.

 

[garddog]

16 largely means unskilled labor unless you’re advocating apprenticeship programs.

Otherwise I’m agreeing with horshack’s previous response…

Less than 40% have college degrees, less than 20% use their degree. All the reasons horshak listed are gate keepers.

13 years of non specialized training is nuts. If the education system can't help kids figure out what they like and can do by 16 then it is a failure.

 

[Maroon Eagle]

Less than 40% have college degrees, less than 20% use their degree. All the reasons horshak listed are gate keepers.

13 years of non specialized training is nuts. If the education system can't help kids figure out what they like and can do by 16 then it is a failure.

You’re presuming round pegs in round holes, my friend.

State testing, classes I took in school, even the freaking ASVAB where I kicked butt in academic ability and had the local Navy Recruiter wanting to go to nuclear submarines aren’t always true indicators.

Kids don’t always know what they want. I thought I’d be an engineer thanks to the above indicators.

Turns out my talents more run to logic, critical thinking, and research so I turned to another route

It’s not unusual for college students to finally figure out what they want by their third undergrad major.

It didn’t take quite that many for me but I do have three degrees in separate fields. And I’m successful.

#squarepeg

 

[johnson86-1]

You’re presuming round pegs in round holes, my friend.

State testing, classes I took in school, even the freaking ASVAB where I kicked butt in academic ability and had the local Navy Recruiter wanting to go to nuclear submarines aren’t always true indicators.

Kids don’t always know what they want. I thought I’d be an engineer thanks to the above indicators.

Turns out my talents more run to logic, critical thinking, and research so I turned to another route

It’s not unusual for college students to finally figure out what they want by their third undergrad major.

It didn’t take quite that many for me but I do have three degrees in separate fields. And I’m successful.

#squarepeg

You could have probably figured it out in a high school certification and two degrees though if we were smarter about high school.

Seriously, though, I can't remember which comedian got it semi-right with his bit about teachers not being able to tell the truth by saying, "yea, you're not going to need to use math in your job, now be quiet while I teach the kids that are going to have good jobs." The condescension matches the ridiculous attitude we've had towards non-white collar work, but it does sort of get it right in that we should acknowledge that not everybody needs math and science beyond basic classes. Some people are not inclined towards that and should be provided good options for jobs training by their sophomore or at worst junior year of high school. Some people are inclined towards that, but not in a traditional class room setting and will do better learning outside of a class room or will benefit from working for a couple of years and maturing some more before being asked to do that type of class work for 6 hours a day.

 

[Maroon Eagle]

You could have probably figured it out in a high school certification and two degrees though if we were smarter about high school.

Country academies in the 80s didn’t do crud like that though


(yeah, I know— I said State Testing before. I meant Standardized.)