A series of unfortunate events

[85Bears]

Leach didn't recruit a single day he was here. He has a little idiot he called his CEO doing it and that little 17r pissed off every coach and handler in MS. We'd have a RB right now if not for that idiot. Leach had one foot in retirement. I appreciate the couple good years but he ditched our talent !

so Arizona can rebuild in 1 year out of the portal, Arizona State can add 60 players out of the portal from one year, but we are going back 3 seasons to try to pin the current **** show on Mike Leach ?

Arnett added nothing out of the portal, Lebby added no defense and a bunch of busts on the O line, but we are going to pin our current woes on the dead guy.

Pathetic

this is not to mention Dinkins, Williams, John Lewis and DeonTE Anderson are all Leach recruits and out of the portal he added Jackie Matthews, Banks, Randy Charlton, Green , Polk, our current starting wr, and others.

good ol boys don’t want to take the blame, you break it, you own it

 

[85Bears]

Wait, Leach is now responsible for Texas Tech last 15 years? Wazzou's last 6? Wow OK.

And last I checked they weren't all that bad anyway. Texas Tech went 8-5 in 2010. Washington State had a 3-game COVID year then 7-6 in 2021.

Your argument is plumb stupid. Even Bart and Charlie are pushing that garbage, saying a Leach system is hard to come out of it, blah blah, and people were bltching about Leach's recruiting. It's comical, not backed up by facts and done solely to carry water for this current administration and coaching staff. PERIOD.

Do you notice a pattern ? The memo went out and they are all on message. I listened to T&L and they opened with “ what you are seeing on the field is because of Mike Leach”, I laughed

I think this is to protect some in the administration from fan anger. Basically from taking responsibility.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

Do you notice a pattern ? The memo went out and they are all on message. I listened to T&L and they opened with “ what you are seeing on the field is because of Mike Leach”, I laughed

I think this is to protect some in the administration from fan anger. Basically from taking responsibility.

I get it, I mean if you work for the school in any capacity your livelihood is dependent on MSU having hope, so you cling to whatever you have to.

But they aren't fooling me.

 

[HuntDawg]

There is a leach effect. Its not effected in year 1 but it slowly catches up. Leach usually left a QB and skill athletes where people can survive. Much like we would have last season had it not been for Arnett.

Its more than just the players on the field. Its the recruiting lines and ways of recruiting. When you dont have those relationships or lose those relationships with certain areas you have to build those back..... THIS is what the leach effect is.

That being said... Lebby doesnt look like he even belongs being a head coach. So you cant blame this season on leach.. it was going to be rocky. But nothing like this.

 

[Bulldawg77]

Wait, Leach is now responsible for Texas Tech last 15 years? Wazzou's last 6? Wow OK.

And last I checked they weren't all that bad anyway. Texas Tech went 8-5 in 2010. Washington State had a 3-game COVID year then 7-6 in 2021.

Your argument is plumb stupid. Even Bart and Charlie are pushing that garbage, saying a Leach system is hard to come out of it, blah blah, and people were bltching about Leach's recruiting. It's comical, not backed up by facts and done solely to carry water for this current administration and coaching staff. PERIOD.

It’s not garbage dude it’s the truth and one you and others that part of this AR cult cant understand it’s very much like going from the triple option to a modern offense it take time to rebuild.
For some reason you all just can’t get through your head three things. 1. We didn’t fire leach he died, we didn’t run him off he passed away. 2. He neglected recruiting, especially on the defensive side of the ball. 3. He trusted a Dave Emerick to basically say who we recruited and who he didn’t. Super Dave ruined a ton of relationships in MS high schools and valued TX and other out of state players than he did in state. He’s also about to get run at USC
You can disagree all you want but what I laid out for you is the truth and don’t even get me started on your man crush Cohen and how a lot of this blame needs to go to him as well.

 

[85Bears]

There is a leach effect. Its not effected in year 1 but it slowly catches up. Leach usually left a QB and skill athletes where people can survive. Much like we would have last season had it not been for Arnett.

Its more than just the players on the field. Its the recruiting lines and ways of recruiting. When you dont have those relationships or lose those relationships with certain areas you have to build those back..... THIS is what the leach effect is.

That being said... Lebby doesnt look like he even belongs being a head coach. So you cant blame this season on leach.. it was going to be rocky. But nothing like this.

No a Leach effect is something you just made up. By the way, I thought you said Toledo was going to be a cake walk and a field day ?

 

[HuntDawg]

No a Leach effect is something you just made up. By the way, I thought you said Toledo was going to be a cake walk and a field day ?

should have been. Worst game we've played in 25 years if not more. They arent any good. Shows how bad our program is in its current state.

But one thing is for sure... they didnt return their entire defense.

Leach effect is real. But this fall this fast isnt because of leach.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

It’s not garbage dude it’s the truth and one you and others that part of this AR cult cant understand it’s very much like going from the triple option to a modern offense it take time to rebuild.

No.

It takes time to build a passing offense from a running offense. It doesn't take that long to go from pass-heavy to run. That's a big reason the pass game is so valuable.

He neglected recruiting, especially on the defensive side of the ball. 3. He trusted a Dave Emerick to basically say who we recruited and who he didn’t. Super Dave ruined a ton of relationships in MS high schools and valued TX and other out of state players than he did in state.

Lot of this is twisted up, because ya'lls mouth-breather community is so thin-skinned and egotistical. Cannot stand someone actually doing things differently than the way your wing T nimrods want it. Ya'll hated Mullen and his 'country club' too. Sho would be nice to have them right now.

Either way, Leach's recruiting system didn't affect the classes we brought in. They were all ranked 25-27. The 2023 class was pretty good too.

And I still can't get any of you to admit that Lebby ran off 20-something guys, and didn't bring in replacements.

 

[HuntDawg]

No.

It takes time to build a passing offense from a running offense. It doesn't take that long to go from pass-heavy to run. That's a big reason the pass game is so valuable.


Lot of this is twisted up, because ya'lls mouth-breather community is so thin-skinned and egotistical. Cannot stand someone actually doing things differently than the way your wing T nimrods want it. Ya'll hated Mullen and his 'country club' too. Sho would be nice to have them right now.

Either way, Leach's recruiting system didn't affect the classes we brought in. They were all ranked 25-27. The 2023 class was pretty good too.

And I still can't get any of you to admit that Lebby ran off 20-something guys, and didn't bring in replacements.

you keep talking about how highly leachs recruiting systems are... but thats not it.. and thats what you keep missing.

Recruiting is like building a car.

leach got some nice pieces. Engines. Tires. Body. Etc--- but he was building a Ferrari (insert whatever car name here you want-- this is not suppose to be a knock on leach) and he could build it even with off brand parts and make it work.

New coaches show up and and the engine is there, tires, body, and it all looks like. But all the little parts that actually makes the car run equally as well in THEIR car-- doesnt work. And the frusterating thing, those parts dont work in ANY other car, because it was leaches car and he's the only person that truly knew how it worked.

Combine that with the fact that like youve mentioned, recruiting works 2-3 years out, because we cant portal, we have to build--- and you see the leach effect.

But again-- what happened Saturday isnt on leach.

 

[Dawgzilla2]

Should we require our coaching candidates in the big sports over 40 years of age to undergo a thorough physical before signing them?. And I would even go so far to say that any candidates with ANY inkling of heart issues or history to spend one day in the hospital and undergo a heart cath. Our university is spending millions of dollars on these guys and losing one like Leach really upsets the entire program. In our case.....for years.

A physical before hiring them is not a bad idea. I've had 2 employers require that of me, and I'm just an attorney - but it was some kind of insurance requirement. I think we would need to require it of most salaried employees for it to make sense.

Requiring medical treatment is another issue. We cannot go back in time, but Leach struck me as the kind of guy who wouldn't agree to that.

Plus, football has a long history of obese, health risk coaches, but not much history of those coaches dying while still on the job.

But how about this: What if the BC took out high dollar life insurance policies on our head coaches? There are limits on what they can get, but it shouldn't be probitively expensive. Money doesn't solve the problem, but if the head coach dies unexpectedly it might be nice to have a few million on hand to assist with replacing him.

 

[85Bears]

you keep talking about how highly leachs recruiting systems are... but thats not it.. and thats what you keep missing.

Recruiting is like building a car.

leach got some nice pieces. Engines. Tires. Body. Etc--- but he was building a Ferrari (insert whatever car name here you want-- this is not suppose to be a knock on leach) and he could build it even with off brand parts and make it work.

New coaches show up and and the engine is there, tires, body, and it all looks like. But all the little parts that actually makes the car run equally as well in THEIR car-- doesnt work. And the frusterating thing, those parts dont work in ANY other car, because it was leaches car and he's the only person that truly knew how it worked.

Combine that with the fact that like youve mentioned, recruiting works 2-3 years out, because we cant portal, we have to build--- and you see the leach effect.

But again-- what happened Saturday isnt on leach.

Why can’t we portal ?

 

[HuntDawg]

Why can’t we portal ?

Im not saying we cant use it better than we are... but I agree with GOAT on this one.. we are going to struggle building and making huge wholesale changes in the portal. We are going to have to retain and develop talent to be able to be consistant.

 

[85Bears]

Im not saying we cant use it better than we are... but I agree with GOAT on this one.. we are going to struggle building and making huge wholesale changes in the portal. We are going to have to retain and develop talent to be able to be consistant.

I don’t understand that, nearly every P4 team in the country can reload their defense in one year out of the portal. There’s no way Arizona and Arizona State have more NIl money than we do. They do it in one year.

 

[patdog]

so Arizona can rebuild in 1 year out of the portal, Arizona State can add 60 players out of the portal from one year, but we are going back 3 seasons to try to pin the current **** show on Mike Leach ?

Arnett added nothing out of the portal, Lebby added no defense and a bunch of busts on the O line, but we are going to pin our current woes on the dead guy.

Pathetic

this is not to mention Dinkins, Williams, John Lewis and DeonTE Anderson are all Leach recruits and out of the portal he added Jackie Matthews, Banks, Randy Charlton, Green , Polk, our current starting wr, and others.

good ol boys don’t want to take the blame, you break it, you own it

Agreed. It's WAY past time to blame Leach for this. Hell, I'm starting to even have a problem with blaming Arnett. As bad and as clueless as he was, he did win 5 games. This team will be lucky to win half that many. This is ALL on Selmon and Lebby.

 

[greenbean.sixpack]

Why can’t we portal ?

I read on the other board that OM has like 10 folks assigned to evaluating/working portal players and under Arnept, we had zero.

 

[HuntDawg]

I don’t understand that, nearly every P4 team in the country can reload their defense in one year out of the portal. There’s no way Arizona and Arizona State have more NIl money than we do. They do it in one year.

Look i agree with you. It seems like Lebby had zero plan coming in and has already lost the locker room. There isnt a guy on the field that looks like they should be starting on an SEC team.... and for some reason he thought this was enough to win this year or compete.. or do whatever the hell he wants to call it.

My only guess-- and its a guess-- is that you those schools you mentioned out west can grab some guys due to the location and things.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

Im not saying we cant use it better than we are... but I agree with GOAT on this one.. we are going to struggle building and making huge wholesale changes in the portal. We are going to have to retain and develop talent to be able to be consistant.

You're conflating two topics here. I said in general I'd like to see us be about 75% high school and 25% portal on a year in year out basis. But during a coaching change, it's really up to the coach to figure out what he needs.

 

[pseudonym]

Well, we tried to fire him after the Egg Bowl, but our leadership got in their feels.

Also, do you not remember the circumstances that led to his firing after the bowl? It wasn't just the game.

Meh. If there hadn't already been calls for him to be fired due to wins and losses, he wouldn't have been fired because of a fight in practice. It was an excuse used by the camp that wanted him fired.

But it doesn't really matter why he was fired. The point is firing Moorhead was supposed to elevate our program. His SEC winning percentage was 0.438. Four years later, our post-Moorhead SEC winning percentage is 0.353. We'll have to win three SEC games this year for that winning percentage not to go down.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

Meh. If there hadn't already been calls for him to be fired due to wins and losses, he wouldn't have been fired because of a fight in practice. It was an excuse used by the camp that wanted him fired.

But it doesn't really matter why he was fired. The point is firing Moorhead was supposed to elevate our program. His SEC winning percentage was 0.438. Four years later, our post-Moorhead SEC winning percentage is 0.353. We'll have to win 3 SEC games this year for that winning percentage not to go down.

Surely you really aren't truly relying on only this simple math to support your claim? You are adding zero context regarding the program Moorhead too over, vs. the one he left. You're also not giving any credence to the eye test. You sound like Moorhead the other day on that podcast.

 

[pseudonym]

Surely you really aren't truly relying on only this simple math to support your claim? You are adding zero context regarding the program Moorhead too over, vs. the one he left. You're also not giving any credence to the eye test. You sound like Moorhead the other day on that podcast.

I'm not defending Moorhead's tenure. The point is firing him did not elevate our program. We fired him 1,718 days ago, and we are DFL in the SEC. That is not Moorhead's fault.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

I'm not defending Moorhead's tenure. The point is firing him did not elevate our program. We fired him 1,718 days ago, and we are DFL in the SEC. That is not Moorhead's fault.

Yes it did. He was here 2 years, and 2 years after he left, we were on an upward trajectory and in a much better place. Right up until Leach's death.

You can't just arbitrarily pick any point and say hey, it's better/worse now than then. You have to consider the trends.

Moorhead would have gone 2-10 or 3-9 in a regular 2020 schedule, and 0-10 vs. the COVID schedule. That would have been rock bottom. Leach saved us from that - temporarily. Now Keenum (and others), Selmon and Lebby are trying hard to get out the jackhammer.

 

[HuntDawg]

I'm not defending Moorhead's tenure. The point is firing him did not elevate our program. We fired him 1,718 days ago, and we are DFL in the SEC. That is not Moorhead's fault.

I actually agree with this. Hindsight being 20/20 of course. Keeping Moorhead around 4-5 years we are likely in much better shape than we are at the moment.... and b/t the firing and now.. 4-7, 7-6, 8-4, 4-8... i'd be willing to bet Moorhead would have at the very least replicated those results.

 

[Theconnormead]

We won 9 games in 2022. Had Leach not died we'd be coming off a 9 win 2023 season. This season may have been down, but not to this level.

It is a series of unfortunate events, Keenum is most to blame for not doing a real coaching search after Leach's passing....well as someone posted yesterday, Leach's physician is really the most to blame...

To me, Saturday was a culmination of many converging issues. Poor hire after Mullen, little to no interest in NIL for way too long, recruiting under Leach, Leach passing, poor coaching hire decision after Leach, a green AD, allowing Lebby, a first time HC, to hire a first time DC (he should have been forced to hire someone with DC experience if not DC and HC experience), University marketing team, the City of Starkville marketing team, fans and Alumni not buying into NIL.... The list just keeps going on. The bottom line, in my opinion, is the athletic department, alumni must embrace NIL....ASAP, and we have to give Lebby some time and grace, the last thing we need is another coaching change with ZS in charge of the hiring process.
I have been underwhelmed with ZS to this point.

 

[pseudonym]

Yes it did. He was here 2 years, and 2 years after he left, we were on an upward trajectory and in a much better place. Right up until Leach's death.

You can't just arbitrarily pick any point and say hey, it's better/worse now than then. You have to consider the trends.

Moorhead would have gone 2-10 or 3-9 in a regular 2020 schedule, and 0-10 vs. the COVID schedule. That would have been rock bottom. Leach saved us from that - temporarily. Now Keenum (and others), Selmon and Lebby are trying hard to get out the jackhammer.

We have never had a better record than Moorhead after Moorhead. The peak SEC record after Moorhead was 11-15 (2020-2022). We have a worse SEC winning percentage post-Moorhead than Moorhead's worst season. So, no, I'm not arbitrarily picking a point in time.

You're using a lot of speculation. You're trying to make your point by saying Moorhead would have gone 0-10 in 2020? That's quite the assumption to base your position on.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

We have never had a better record than Moorhead after Moorhead. The peak SEC record after Moorhead was 11-15 (2020-2022). We have a worse SEC winning percentage post-Moorhead than Moorhead's worst season. So, no, I'm not arbitrarily picking a point in time.

You're using a lot of speculation. You're trying to make your point by saying Moorhead would have gone 0-10 in 2020? That's quite the assumption to base your position on.

I'm using your simple numbers and also the other things (that you call speculation, I call it logic) to develop my position.

You are using simple numbers, and your position is basically shared by you and Joe Moorhead.

 

[pseudonym]

I'm using your simple numbers and also the other things (that you call speculation, I call it logic) to develop my position.

You are using simple numbers, and your position is basically shared by you and Joe Moorhead.

Ok. People can read our posts and decide who is using objective results and which is using subjective speculation.