Are my BlueWhite glasses on too tight?

NB4PSU

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It seems neither the penn state '69 defense nor the '94 offense are anybody's top 10/30/50 lists. Now maybe I'm just being a homer -- and I'm not suggesting either were the best of all time, but both seem to warrant consideration -- but i think both belong in the top 50.

I'll skip the offense because most recall how potent it was (and virtually unstoppable when they were motivated). Given the talent assembled, I'd place them top 25.

The defense is harder because the competition is stronger and we're trying to compare kids from the 60s with today's monsters. I will say that the job that team did on an exceptionally powerful mizzou offense pretty much summed it up. That team had Joe Moore (11th guy taken in the 71 draft), Mel Gray, and Jon Staggers. They crushed (ran wild) a pretty good michigan team in ann arbor (a team that would later knock off #1 ohio state 24-12). As the mizzou coach noted, they hadn't see anything like penn state's D.. period.

With one loss to colorado, they came into the game having scored at least 17 points in a game and averaged nearly 50 over their last 4 before facing us. We held them to 3 and turned them over 9 times. That team was physicaally much bigger than people really are aware of... as I've posted in the past, mano v mano, we were physically superior to texas. Because we were an independent from the east we were perceived by many to be smaller, slower, less physical... when the exact opposite was true.

Anyway, enough talk. Anyone who feels like chiming in, I'm open to your pov... again, i might be wearing too much B/W make-up and you can call me on it. If nothing else, those are feel-good memories :)
 

PSUFTG

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Nov 1, 2021
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It seems neither the penn state '69 defense nor the '94 offense are anybody's top 10/30/50 lists. Now maybe I'm just being a homer -- and I'm not suggesting either were the best of all time, but both seem to warrant consideration -- but i think both belong in the top 50.

I'll skip the offense because most recall how potent it was (and virtually unstoppable when they were motivated). Given the talent assembled, I'd place them top 25.

The defense is harder because the competition is stronger and we're trying to compare kids from the 60s with today's monsters. I will say that the job that team did on an exceptionally powerful mizzou offense pretty much summed it up. That team had Joe Moore (11th guy taken in the 71 draft), Mel Gray, and Jon Staggers. They crushed (ran wild) a pretty good michigan team in ann arbor (a team that would later knock off #1 ohio state 24-12). As the mizzou coach noted, they hadn't see anything like penn state's D.. period.

With one loss to colorado, they came into the game having scored at least 17 points in a game and averaged nearly 50 over their last 4 before facing us. We held them to 3 and turned them over 9 times. That team was physicaally much bigger than people really are aware of... as I've posted in the past, mano v mano, we were physically superior to texas. Because we were an independent from the east we were perceived by many to be smaller, slower, less physical... when the exact opposite was true.

Anyway, enough talk. Anyone who feels like chiming in, I'm open to your pov... again, i might be wearing too much B/W make-up and you can call me on it. If nothing else, those are feel-good memories :)
I have never spoken with anyone - who had even a mediocre knowledge of college football - who wouldn't have placed the 1994 PSU offense among the best ever (even when considering that comparisons across different eras are inherently "dumb").

Have you? If so, you would be the first person I have heard from who has.
 

psuno1

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All you need to do is list of the names that played at the next level to see how much talent was on the 94 offense and 69 defense both are in the all time top teams.

1970 Draft
Mike Reid
Dennis Onkotz
Steve Smear
John Ebersole
Don Abbey
Paul Johnson
James Kates

1971 Draft
Jack Ham

1995 Draft
Ki-jana Carter
Kerry Collins
Kyle Brady

1996 Draft
Jeff Hartings
Andre Johnson
Bobby Engram
Jon Witman
Brian Milne
Keith Conlin
Stephen Pitts
Marco Rivera
Mike Archie

1997 Draft
Brett Conway
Wally Richardson

1998 Draft
Joe Jurevicius
 
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NB4PSU

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Agree with all you guys, but when you do a look-up on either criteria it comes back missing us. And it does include teams from 'back in the day' lol.

Still wish Joe had not shown michigan so much respect in 94... really felt we could have blown them out and really cemented ourselves as both #1 and an offense for the ages.

But given the context of 'it was michigan' and dealing with the referines, maybe i should go easy on coach. :)

BTW, thanks for posting the names and nfl draft info. I once spent considerable time finding the size discrepancy between psu and texas in 69... pretty evident we were not only more talented, but physically superior. Wish we could have played them.
 
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Jim from Spicewood

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All you need to do is list of the names that played at the next level to see how much talent was on the 94 offense and 69 defense both are in the all time top teams.

1970 Draft
Mike Reid
Dennis Onkotz
Steve Smear
John Ebersole
Don Abbey
Paul Johnson
James Kates

1971 Draft
Jack Ham

1995 Draft
Ki-jana Carter
Kerry Collins
Kyle Brady

1996 Draft
Jeff Hartings
Andre Johnson
Bobby Engram
Jon Witman
Brian Milne
Keith Conlin
Stephen Pitts
Marco Rivera
Mike Archie

1997 Draft
Brett Conway
Wally Richardson
Missing from the list of the '69 defense was a guy who didn't get drafted: safety Neal Smith. All Smith did was lead the nation in interceptions with 10 over a 10 game season, add 2 more vs. Mizzou in the Orange Bowl that weren't added to season stats by the NCAA back then, set the PSU record for career intercetions that still stands, and be named a first team All American.

The only reason the '69 defense and '94 offense are overlooked in these asinine "best ever" lists is IMHO a combination of regional and recency bias.
 

LionJim

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Missing from the list of the '69 defense was a guy who didn't get drafted: safety Neal Smith. All Smith did was lead the nation in interceptions with 10 over a 10 game season, add 2 more vs. Mizzou in the Orange Bowl that weren't added to season stats by the NCAA back then, set the PSU record for career intercetions that still stands, and be named a first team All American.

The only reason the '69 defense and '94 offense are overlooked in these asinine "best ever" lists is IMHO a combination of regional and recency bias.
These sorts of slights don’t bother me, as I’m comfortable with my own assessments of their greatness.
 

uh-Clem

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Jul 31, 2022
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The 1969 defense was the strongest defence that I have seen in 70 years, but only 20% of the US population is 65 or older, so most fans look at a team from the 1960s as ancient history. I wondered when I saw the story about the best defences and was also surprised by the ranking. I guess I shouldn't have been.
 

OptionBob

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I think it was Ridge Riley who wrote in one of his Football Letter issues that the 1969 starting defense allowed some ridiculously low number of points. Of course, I can't remember the exact number, but it was something like 60 or so over the 11 games.

That defense shut out West Virginia, which had the #1 rushing offense going into the game.
It totally stuffed Heisman candidate Bob Anderson of Colorado, holding the team that handed Missouri its only loss to a mere 3 points.
It blanked speedy Kansas State 17-0 until Joe inserted reserved and the Wildcats put up 2 late scores.
It held NC State to an astoundingly low number of total offense (I apologize I can't remember exact numbers); it was somewhere in the 20's I think of total offense.
And "obviously" ;) it held powerful Mizzou to only 3 points.

In an era that was not known for the prolific passing of modern days, the 1969 defense intercepted 31 passes in 11 games. Neal Smith has 12 all by himself.

Dennis Onkotz, an inside linebacker, was highly ranked nationally as a punt returner, solid evidence of his speed.

The way the "Rover Boys" handled the Wishbone attack of West Virginia and the option offense of Colorado clearly shows how that 1969 defense would defend the mighty Texas Longhorn Wishbone. Texas played only 2 ranked opponents: Oklahoma and Arkansas. OU was routed by Kansas State (yes, that same K-State team Penn State had shut out in Manhattan until the subs went in late) by about 40 points. The Sooners also were routed by Missouri.

Arkansas was a true paper hog in 1969. It did not defeat a single ranked opponent all year, although it really dominated Texas and should have won that game. The Hogs then lost to Ole Miss in a Bowl game. Texas' 15-14 win over Arkansas was hardly some impressive feat other than the comeback. But then Penn State had a similar 15-14 comeback win over a Syracuse team that might have been as good as Arkansas.

Given the month of December to prepare for a top-ranked Longhorn squad, Joe Paterno would gave devised a scheme to stop that Wishbone just as he schemed to stuff the Missouri passing game. Penn State wins that Cotton Bowl handily.
 

Got GSPs

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It seems neither the penn state '69 defense nor the '94 offense are anybody's top 10/30/50 lists. Now maybe I'm just being a homer -- and I'm not suggesting either were the best of all time, but both seem to warrant consideration -- but i think both belong in the top 50.

I'll skip the offense because most recall how potent it was (and virtually unstoppable when they were motivated). Given the talent assembled, I'd place them top 25.

The defense is harder because the competition is stronger and we're trying to compare kids from the 60s with today's monsters. I will say that the job that team did on an exceptionally powerful mizzou offense pretty much summed it up. That team had Joe Moore (11th guy taken in the 71 draft), Mel Gray, and Jon Staggers. They crushed (ran wild) a pretty good michigan team in ann arbor (a team that would later knock off #1 ohio state 24-12). As the mizzou coach noted, they hadn't see anything like penn state's D.. period.

With one loss to colorado, they came into the game having scored at least 17 points in a game and averaged nearly 50 over their last 4 before facing us. We held them to 3 and turned them over 9 times. That team was physicaally much bigger than people really are aware of... as I've posted in the past, mano v mano, we were physically superior to texas. Because we were an independent from the east we were perceived by many to be smaller, slower, less physical... when the exact opposite was true.

Anyway, enough talk. Anyone who feels like chiming in, I'm open to your pov... again, i might be wearing too much B/W make-up and you can call me on it. If nothing else, those are feel-good memories :)
Do you have a link to a top 50 offense or defense list that has excluded those teams? Maybe you are just so brainwashed with the whole media bias against Penn State thing or maybe most of these lists are top teams and May only include teams that won championships.
 

NB4PSU

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Do you have a link to a top 50 offense or defense list that has excluded those teams? Maybe you are just so brainwashed with the whole media bias against Penn State thing or maybe most of these lists are top teams and May only include teams that won championships.
First, most lists include '39 Tenn which shut out everybody until they played a good team in usc and lost 14-0 (writer try to make it sound like the SEC was really good... they were not). So they didn't win the mnc/finish #1 and are in most top 10's. Check.

I won't pay for espn+ and it might be we are in their top 50... if anyone has it, they can check https://www.espn.com/college-footba...ing-50-best-defenses-college-football-history

Not here (top 25) https://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2016/3/3/11153442/best-ncaa-football-defenses-ever

Nor here (top 10) https://athlonsports.com/college-football/10-greatest-defenses-college-football-history

I'm pretty comfortable we're not on that espn top 50 list or it would have popped. Feel free to root thru the years and see what you can find. Thanks so much to Option Bob for providing more depth and insight than I did... much appreciated OB! Will always have us beating texas easily 17-6... possibly 20-3. Other than horrid weather condition,s UT has virtually no chance.

Always said I'd take our '69 D and '94O and play anybody... only ok, usc, osu, bama, clemson really could survive that gauntlet. I think if I get to heaven i'll hit god up for a playoff lol.

More realistically, I look at the best teams of a decade.. and the NEXT decade. So psu in 69 along with 66 msu could easily play alongside, say, bama in the 70s. And psu 94 and neb 95 could easily check into the 2000-2010 decade and be right there with usc and texas 2005. imo, of course.
 
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NB4PSU

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Got GSPs

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First, most lists include '39 Tenn which shut out everybody until they played a good team in usc and lost 14-0 (writer try to make it sound like the SEC was really good... they were not). So they didn't win the mnc/finish #1 and are in most top 10's. Check.

I won't pay for espn+ and it might be we are in their top 50... if anyone has it, they can check https://www.espn.com/college-footba...ing-50-best-defenses-college-football-history

Not here (top 25) https://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2016/3/3/11153442/best-ncaa-football-defenses-ever

Nor here (top 10) https://athlonsports.com/college-football/10-greatest-defenses-college-football-history

I'm pretty comfortable we're not on that espn top 50 list or it would have popped. Feel free to root thru the years and see what you can find. Thanks so much to Option Bob for providing more depth and insight than I did... much appreciated OB! Will always have us beating texas easily 17-6... possibly 20-3. Other than horrid weather condition,s UT has virtually no chance.

Always said I'd take our '69 D and '94O and play anybody... only ok, usc, osu, bama, clemson really could survive that gauntlet. I think if I get to heaven i'll hit god up for a playoff lol.

More realistically, I look at the best teams of a decade.. and the NEXT decade. So psu in 69 along with 66 msu could easily play alongside, say, bama in the 70s. And psu 94 and neb 95 could easily check into the 2000-2010 decade and be right there with usc and texas 2005. imo, of course.
So, you can’t produce a top 50 list where Penn State has been left off…
 

razpsu

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Oct 19, 2021
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All you need to do is list of the names that played at the next level to see how much talent was on the 94 offense and 69 defense both are in the all time top teams.

1970 Draft
Mike Reid
Dennis Onkotz
Steve Smear
John Ebersole
Don Abbey
Paul Johnson
James Kates

1971 Draft
Jack Ham

1995 Draft
Ki-jana Carter
Kerry Collins
Kyle Brady

1996 Draft
Jeff Hartings
Andre Johnson
Bobby Engram
Jon Witman
Brian Milne
Keith Conlin
Stephen Pitts
Marco Rivera
Mike Archie

1997 Draft
Brett Conway
Wally Richardson
Jurevicious!
 
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NB4PSU

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Oct 30, 2021
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So, you can’t produce a top 50 list where Penn State has been left off…
Correct... only on defense. I had seen the sbnation list and mistakenly thought it was more than 23 or 26 (whatever) teams. Not sure how anyone could do that, but they managed. I'm sure espn will have us on their top 50. Where... will be interesting.

The bigger surprise was the lack of "lists" at all. You'd think there would be tons of them.

The defense did not make the espn top 50.
 
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