Baltimore Key bridge collapse
- Thread starter Bison13
- Start date
And Marshall will say she is right to do so because she’s a coach!kim mulkey will never allow it.
Take a drive through Montoursville sometime and visit the park that honors the victims of the most deadly "loose wire" in the history of the world. 16 students and 5 chaperones. It's a beautiful park. This statue is surrounded by 21 trees in a circular pattern.
An inquiring mind would like to know (directed to any marine/ship people) how much of the ship's power system is computer controlled?
Any reasonable reply will be appreciated.
A little too much coincidence in this event.
Any reasonable reply will be appreciated.
A little too much coincidence in this event.
because we all know Boeing quality control is flawlessTake a drive through Montoursville sometime and visit the park that honors the victims of the most deadly "loose wire" in the history of the world. 16 students and 5 chaperones. It's a beautiful park. This statue is surrounded by 21 trees in a circular pattern.
I Received this today.......
NSPE (National society of Professional Engineers)Daily Designs <[email protected]>
Why did Francis Scott Key bridge collapse so catastrophically? It didn't stand a chance.
Trevor HughesUSA TODAY
The Francis Scott Key Bridge stood little chance: When the loaded container ship Dali destroyed one of the bridge's main support columns, the entire structure was doomed to fail.
"Any bridge would have been in serious danger from a collision like this," said Nii Attoh-Okine, professor and chair of civil and environmental engineering at the University of Maryland.
Bridges work by transferring the load they carry ‒ cars, trucks or trains ‒ through their support beams onto columns or piles sunk deep into the ground.
But they also depend on those support columns to hold them up.
When the 984-foot Singapore-flagged Dali took out that column, the bridge was inevitably going to fall, said Benjamin W. Schafer, a civil engineering professor at Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore.
“You go frame by frame in the video and you can see the support removed, and then as you watch, the entire structure comes down," he said. “Literally the whole bridge comes down as a rigid body.”
Opened in 1977, the bridge was 1.6 miles long and was the world's third-longest continuous-truss bridge span, carrying about 31,000 vehicles a day.
Similarly designed bridges have a long history of catastrophic failure, but those failures more typically come from a problem within the bridge itself.
Though modern bridges are typically designed so a small failure in one area doesn’t "propagate" to the entire bridge, steel-truss structures are particularly at risk. One study found that more than 500 steel-truss bridges in the United States collapsed between 1989 and 2000.
Truss-style bridges are recognizable by the triangular bracing that gives them strength. They are often used to carry cars, trucks and trains across rivers or canyons.
Similar bridges have been weakened by repeated heavy truck or train traffic, according to experts. But in this case, the bridge's design and construction probably played little role in the collapse, Attoh-Okine and Schafer said.
“This is an incredibly efficient structure, and there’s no evidence of a crucial flaw," Schafer said. “If that had been a highway bridge, you would have watched one concrete beam (fall), but in this case, it's dramatic, like a whole pile of spaghetti."
The bigger question, the two experts said, is the long-term impact the collapse will have on shipping and vehicle traffic all along the East Coast. Although there are tunnels serving the area, they are typically off-limits to gasoline tankers and other hazardous-materials carriers, which would require significant rerouting.
Additionally, Baltimore is the nation's 20th-busiest port, according to the federal Bureau of Transportation Statistics. Workers there imported and exported more than 840,000 cars and light trucks last year, making it the busiest auto port in the nation, according to the governor's office.
"It's going to change the whole traffic pattern around the East Coast, as a cascading effect," Attoh-Okine said.
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I'm surprised at the 31K vehicles/day on this bridge. Our little drawbridge that is being replaced (I've been using a PITA detour for a year now) is 21K/day. I guess this bridge is mainly for trucks and haz/mat vehicles while all the cars are in the tunnels?
Full disclosure first- my ships had oil fired boilers powering steam turbines and I wasn't an engineer.
Today's commercial ships are mostly diesel (the one in question was, one engine only) Diesels are pretty simple, I imagine that they have computer-controlled fuel systems, but beyond that I doubt there is a hell of a lot of need for computers to control things in the engineering spaces.
I imagine they monitor a lot, though.
We can explain to our recruits interested in the engineering and sciences programs
that The PSU teaches the design of stronger bridges.
Wouldn't ships and barges have to be online w/ the dockmaster or other maritime/govt' authorities? Would that be for nothing more than communication? Or would GPS and navigation be a part of that as well?
I don't know much about this, and I'm not implying anything.
yes, and because they were, they were able to send a Mayday out and get the bridge closed when they had the breakdown the pilots can always talk with the harbormaster
from what I've seen and read so far their navigation wasn't an issue - they were in the channel until they lost steering and they were too close to the bridge to get stopped with only being able to drop anchors. It looks to me like it happened at the worst spot- if you look at the chart, they were just needing to make maybe a 60 degree turn to get into the main channel that goes under the bridge
chart: Chart 12281 (noaa.gov)
edit- they were coming out of the Curtis Bay channel and needed to make a big turn to starboard to go under the bridge
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Last night after watching news coverage all day (retired engineer), my mind started to wander.
The first thought when I initially heard the news report (5:00 am) was terrorism. Of course, the authorities were quick to dispel any thought of a deliberate attempt to sever a major transportation artery AND cripple a port facility.
So the old guy starts thinking how this could happen knowing based on what I've heard and seen all day.
A possible scenario ..
Cyber attack cripples the ship's control system at the moment when the ship has throttled up, requiring it to "drift" through a 1200 foot wide channel. Worst case scenario is what we saw yesterday - impact of central pier/truss support frame, collapse of continuous truss bridge blocking the only access into the port.
Best case (for the good guys) is the ship's pilot somehow guides the vessel through the opening and everybody says "that was close".
Coincidence?
cyberattack cripples the ship at just the perfect time/location? amazing accuracy
possible? maybe. likely? there are simpler explanations.
Is the dockmaster sort of an air traffic controller in these ports? Are there real time graphics showing the location/speed/size/etc. of each vessel along w/ plans on herding everyone through in the most expeditious manner?
or the cheap asses didnt change the fuel filter which got clogged, and the engine stopped running, got enough through to restart, only to be too clogged to keep it running.
I've never been in a harbor control room, but I think that's a pretty good analogy. The actual control of the ship is on the ship, of course.
yes they use an AIS ? system which identifies each boat and location (all based on GPS)
You know he's going to come back with some conspiracy about how "they" doctored the maintenance records so that it would never be changed
All ships have voyage data recorders.
“Pilots” are Chesapeake Bay Pilots, all have USCG l bears and must be infinitely familire with the entire Chesapeake Bay
if it was bad fuel that will soon be found out, every time a ship “bunkers” they to keep samples for a year.
“Pilots” are Chesapeake Bay Pilots, all have USCG l bears and must be infinitely familire with the entire Chesapeake Bay
if it was bad fuel that will soon be found out, every time a ship “bunkers” they to keep samples for a year.
Ironic-my older brother has been a maritime lawyer in NYC for almost 50 years-one of the worlds best. So I called him last night to ask him his opinion. He laughed and said his firm was representing the ship owner. They have liability coverage in the billions. I said "quick settlement?" . As a true lawyer, he said it "will drag out in courts". My brother said they sent lawyers to Baltimore yesterday but he was in court so did not go. Not sure if he will have much involvement personally in the case but his firm will.
At the Francis Scott Key Bridge, checking the ship's cargo containers for 'portal players'!
Good article, Thomasthis article comes close to answering your question
Engineers ask if Baltimore’s Key Bridge piers could have been better protected
Many bridges similar to Baltimore’s Key Bridge are protected by barriers designed to prevent or reduce the impact when vessels collide with piers. Such installations include cable systems, po…www.baltimoresun.com
1. Yea one of the prime tenets of terrorists is to make a call and tell everyone the building is about to explode. I mean really?
We all knew this is what was going to happen when the wacko board went pay.
.... my first thought was also an attack on our commerce system, guess we'll have to 'wade' thru the investigation reports to understand.
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Ya, we're called 'Baby Boomers'......the hippies that generations x,y,z despise for ruining the economics of the country.
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We can explain to our recruits interested in the engineering and sciences programs
that The PSU teaches the design of stronger bridges.
and more reliable cargo ships. PSU does have that big water tunnel thingie
I'm still at it (I think I'm the last year or two of Boomers) - I just went full circle from lugging golf bags to owning businesses to lugging golf bags again 3 days a week. Wouldn't have it any other way.
This update includes a nice summary of the current situation of what ships are now trapped in the harbor and some background info on the Dali.
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75 YRS OLD, the owner asked me to stay on 3 days a week until he retires. It's a very sweet deal for me......
Taking a closer look at the YouTube video a few things occur to me after thinking it over;
1. At the beginning of the video, before the power failure, the ship appears way to far west and not in the channel at all. That indicates to me there was some problem before the power failure.
2. If they had to time to call and first responders and had time to close I-695 the problem is occurring before the power failure.
3. Maybe a main engine casualty and they are able to restart it, because that heavy black smoke is the main engine running in full reverse
4. Ebb tide? IDK but the Cheasapek Bay tides are strong and the Pilot may have been pulled into the bridge by the tide.
5. When the anchor fetches up, if it ever did, it looked like it sent the ship into the direction of the bridge abutment.
6. We all know what to do after the fact, right? I think something happened and the ship was out of the channel long before the video and the pilot knew he was in trouble. Maybe instead of backing down he should have went full ahead and hard left rudder to get to as close to center channel as he could have. It may be dropping the anchor hurt more than helped.
7. I wonder if that last 18 wheeler
Driver has any idea how lucky he truly is?
8. In 1990 in Hampton Roads an inbound US Navy aircraft carrier hit an anchored cargo ship - they knew they were going to hit 10 minutes before impact and couldn’t prevent it. That’s a good example of ship momentum. They take miles and miles to finally stop. Mass in motion.
1. At the beginning of the video, before the power failure, the ship appears way to far west and not in the channel at all. That indicates to me there was some problem before the power failure.
2. If they had to time to call and first responders and had time to close I-695 the problem is occurring before the power failure.
3. Maybe a main engine casualty and they are able to restart it, because that heavy black smoke is the main engine running in full reverse
4. Ebb tide? IDK but the Cheasapek Bay tides are strong and the Pilot may have been pulled into the bridge by the tide.
5. When the anchor fetches up, if it ever did, it looked like it sent the ship into the direction of the bridge abutment.
6. We all know what to do after the fact, right? I think something happened and the ship was out of the channel long before the video and the pilot knew he was in trouble. Maybe instead of backing down he should have went full ahead and hard left rudder to get to as close to center channel as he could have. It may be dropping the anchor hurt more than helped.
7. I wonder if that last 18 wheeler
Driver has any idea how lucky he truly is?
8. In 1990 in Hampton Roads an inbound US Navy aircraft carrier hit an anchored cargo ship - they knew they were going to hit 10 minutes before impact and couldn’t prevent it. That’s a good example of ship momentum. They take miles and miles to finally stop. Mass in motion.
The taxpayers. But in fairness, there's little way around that. It's a vital structure.
The hardest thing in the world is to figure out who really “owns” a ship. Most “owners” are conglomerate investment groups. They hire “operators” to run and maintain their ships. “Operators” hire crews from manning agencies who all take a percentage of the seafarers wages.
Ship “operators” work for “charterers” in “time charters”, where for a fixed amount of money every day, for a fixed amount of time, the “operators” man that ship and go where ever the “charterers” tell them to go and move cargo. There’s also “spot market” who are the “wild cats” of the shipping industry. They move a single cargo from point a to point b for a “charterer” and when that voyage is done they looks for another “charter”. The worst two words in the shipping business is “off hire”.
A ship is required to be dry docked every 5 years. It’s all market driven, but ideally an operating companies ships never stop. Once delivered they work throughout their life span, with the exception of a two or three week dry dock period every five years.
The tough part of the industry is manning. Most “operators” go find crews for as little money as possible. I see mostly Filipinos. They work for 9 months at a time. They are on that ship for 9 months and home for three. They send their money home to support their families. It’s the ugly side of the business.
Flag States are countries where your ship is registered. Your ship may never go there. Believe it or not you can “flag” your ship in Switzerland if you choose. Many ship operators use “flags of convinience” to avoid heavy oversight. One of the many reasons almost all cargo ships choose not the flag in the US.
If you want to trade cargo between US ports your ship must be “flagged” in the US. (Jones Act). You cannot load cargo in a U.S. port and discharge it in another US port unless your ship is “Jones Act”. The caveat to that rule is you can stop at a foreign port in between US ports. That’s how cruise ship companies get around the Jones Act. The leave the US and will always call in a foreign port before returning US
“Charterers” usually pay for fuel, tugs, line handlers, docking fees and canal transits.
Operators pay their crews (A ships Master makes between 10-20k a month). A steward or ordinary seamen can be paid as little as $500 a month. The whole business is in US dollars, everywhere.
Operators pay to maintain the ship and provisions (food) and spare parts etc. Technihians as required for equipment repair etc. Most operators have big shore side locations with a lot of employees to keep the ships running.
A bulker, a ship that carry’s bulk cargo like grain, or salt or coal charters for about 13k a day. It changes all the time.
A tank ship, a lot more technical than a bulker charters for about 20-25k a day.
Those are called chartering day rates. They change all the time according to the chartering agreement.
As you can see, the shipping business is all driven by the bottom line. For me it’s fascinating. I really enjoy my job.
This Baltimore accident is a big big deal. Everyone in the industry is watching.
Ship “operators” work for “charterers” in “time charters”, where for a fixed amount of money every day, for a fixed amount of time, the “operators” man that ship and go where ever the “charterers” tell them to go and move cargo. There’s also “spot market” who are the “wild cats” of the shipping industry. They move a single cargo from point a to point b for a “charterer” and when that voyage is done they looks for another “charter”. The worst two words in the shipping business is “off hire”.
A ship is required to be dry docked every 5 years. It’s all market driven, but ideally an operating companies ships never stop. Once delivered they work throughout their life span, with the exception of a two or three week dry dock period every five years.
The tough part of the industry is manning. Most “operators” go find crews for as little money as possible. I see mostly Filipinos. They work for 9 months at a time. They are on that ship for 9 months and home for three. They send their money home to support their families. It’s the ugly side of the business.
Flag States are countries where your ship is registered. Your ship may never go there. Believe it or not you can “flag” your ship in Switzerland if you choose. Many ship operators use “flags of convinience” to avoid heavy oversight. One of the many reasons almost all cargo ships choose not the flag in the US.
If you want to trade cargo between US ports your ship must be “flagged” in the US. (Jones Act). You cannot load cargo in a U.S. port and discharge it in another US port unless your ship is “Jones Act”. The caveat to that rule is you can stop at a foreign port in between US ports. That’s how cruise ship companies get around the Jones Act. The leave the US and will always call in a foreign port before returning US
“Charterers” usually pay for fuel, tugs, line handlers, docking fees and canal transits.
Operators pay their crews (A ships Master makes between 10-20k a month). A steward or ordinary seamen can be paid as little as $500 a month. The whole business is in US dollars, everywhere.
Operators pay to maintain the ship and provisions (food) and spare parts etc. Technihians as required for equipment repair etc. Most operators have big shore side locations with a lot of employees to keep the ships running.
A bulker, a ship that carry’s bulk cargo like grain, or salt or coal charters for about 13k a day. It changes all the time.
A tank ship, a lot more technical than a bulker charters for about 20-25k a day.
Those are called chartering day rates. They change all the time according to the chartering agreement.
As you can see, the shipping business is all driven by the bottom line. For me it’s fascinating. I really enjoy my job.
This Baltimore accident is a big big deal. Everyone in the industry is watching.
1. They were in their channel, about to make a starboard turn to go into the channel that went under the bridge. I've made reference to the harbor chart and posted a link to it twice already.