Baseball Coaching Search - Does familiarity breed contempt amongst MSU fans?

[Perd Hapley]

By far and away the 3 worst programs historically in SEC baseball are Auburn, Kentucky, and Missouri. Pretty much every other program has fairly strong recent or long term history. But those 3 have been cellar dwellars for most of their SEC existence (and in Mizzou’s case, their entire existence).

2 of those 3 programs are headed up by former Cohen assistants who are both having historic success at their location.

Butch Thompson has taken Auburn to 2 of their 6 trips to Omaha, which are their only trips this century. Since the tourney field expanded to 64 in 1999, Auburn has only been to 4 super regionals. 3 of those 4 are under Butch.

Shifting over to Kentucky, Nick Mingione has been the only coach to ever do anything notable there besides Cohen. Kentucky has only won 3 regionals ever. All of them occurred under Mingione. He has their only CWS appearance last year. He won the regular season SEC title last year as well. That was year 7 for him, so nobody would say that wasn’t “his team”.

And sure, both have had some down years too. But that’s just part of the cyclical nature of college baseball. The last 4 coaches at MSU have all had multiple down years.

All that being said, whenever anyone brings up hiring either one of them at MSU, most people seem to cringe. Why is that? It seems like a lot of folks think there is some magic lightning in a bottle candidate out there and everyone thinks “their” diamond in the rough candidate is the one. I’d say give me either Butch or Mingione over 99% of any of the other candidates I’ve seen mentioned.

 

[aerodawg.sixpack]

I think it’s wishful thinking that we would pull either of those two. Fan support is really the only thing we bring over those 2 programs currently. We don’t pay a ton more or have particular recruiting advantages any longer. We would have to overpay to pull one of them unless they are just unhappy with their current situation.

I think either would be a good hire, I just don’t see it working out with their current situations and buyouts.

 

[patdog]

It does if You’re talking about 2 guys either sub .500 SEC records. And no, dorm years aren’t just part of the cyclical nature of baseball. How many down years has Bianco had?

 

[The Peeper]

I think it’s wishful thinking that we would pull either of those two. Fan support is really the only thing we bring over those 2 programs currently. We don’t pay a ton more or have particular recruiting advantages any longer. We would have to overpay to pull one of them unless they are just unhappy with their current situation.

I think either would be a good hire, I just don’t see it working out with their current situations and buyouts.

I don't think I want either, especially Mingione. Butch seems like a great guy but just doesn't seem to have that factor whatever that may be to consistently be near the top. Cohen pays him $50,000 less than Lemonis made but Mingione makes $455,000 less at KY than Lemonis did here.

 

[knock him out john]

I think it’s wishful thinking that we would pull either of those two. Fan support is really the only thing we bring over those 2 programs currently. We don’t pay a ton more or have particular recruiting advantages any longer. We would have to overpay to pull one of them unless they are just unhappy with their current situation.

I think either would be a good hire, I just don’t see it working out with their current situations and buyouts.

we bring a helluva a lot more in facilities than either of them

 

[Perd Hapley]

It does if You’re talking about 2 guys either sub .500 SEC records. And no, dorm years aren’t just part of the cyclical nature of baseball. How many down years has Bianco had?

Our baseball program as a whole has a sub-.500 record in SEC play for the past 25 consecutive years. It seems that very few people realize that is what we are as a program.

Under this criteria, we haven’t had a good coach since Pat McMahon.

I think if you have a coach that has nearly replicated a shortened version of MSU’s overall success over the past 25 years, but they’ve done it at a much lower tier program like Auburn or Kentucky, then its a no brainer hire if you can make it.

 

[Perd Hapley]

I think it’s wishful thinking that we would pull either of those two. Fan support is really the only thing we bring over those 2 programs currently. We don’t pay a ton more or have particular recruiting advantages any longer. We would have to overpay to pull one of them unless they are just unhappy with their current situation.

I think either would be a good hire, I just don’t see it working out with their current situations and buyouts.

Those are fair points. Whether or not we could get either one is a separate topic. But we have a lot of fans who are outspoken against both of them, for whatever reason.

 

[SteelCurtain74]

Not sure, but could be viewed as a "lazy" hire by some. Not saying I agree or disagree with that sentiment but for Selmon this will be an important hire him. I think fans want to see him "go big" in who he goes after.

 

[patdog]

Our baseball program as a whole has a sub-.500 record in SEC play for the past 25 consecutive years. It seems that very few people realize that is what we are as a program.

Under this criteria, we haven’t had a good coach since Pat McMahon.

I think if you have a coach that has nearly replicated a shortened version of MSU’s overall success over the past 25 years, but they’ve done it at a much lower tier program like Auburn or Kentucky, then its a no brainer hire if you can make it.

Our program has mostly underachieved badly the last 20 years since we rehired Polk. He left Cohen a disaster. Granted year 3 was on Cohen but hard to blame him too much for 09 or 10. Take those out & Cohen is >. 500, as is Cannizzaro & Henderson. And even Lemonis was .500 going into this season. I’m fact, Lemonis had a better record than Butch by every measurement and we fired him.

 

[Darryl Steight]

By far and away the 3 worst programs historically in SEC baseball are Auburn, Kentucky, and Missouri. Pretty much every other program has fairly strong recent or long term history. But those 3 have been cellar dwellars for most of their SEC existence (and in Mizzou’s case, their entire existence).

2 of those 3 programs are headed up by former Cohen assistants who are both having historic success at their location.

Butch Thompson has taken Auburn to 2 of their 6 trips to Omaha, which are their only trips this century. Since the tourney field expanded to 64 in 1999, Auburn has only been to 4 super regionals. 3 of those 4 are under Butch.

Shifting over to Kentucky, Nick Mingione has been the only coach to ever do anything notable there besides Cohen. Kentucky has only won 3 regionals ever. All of them occurred under Mingione. He has their only CWS appearance last year. He won the regular season SEC title last year as well. That was year 7 for him, so nobody would say that wasn’t “his team”.

And sure, both have had some down years too. But that’s just part of the cyclical nature of college baseball. The last 4 coaches at MSU have all had multiple down years.

All that being said, whenever anyone brings up hiring either one of them at MSU, most people seem to cringe. Why is that? It seems like a lot of folks think there is some magic lightning in a bottle candidate out there and everyone thinks “their” diamond in the rough candidate is the one. I’d say give me either Butch or Mingione over 99% of any of the other candidates I’ve seen mentioned.

This doesn't address your question about familarity, but IMO, we can probably stop talking about Mingione. With that buyout and UK wanting to keep him, I think he's out of the discussion. Most people automatically think he would come if we offered him because we're Mississippi State, but UK did give him his first HC gig. He's probably fairly loyal to them at this point.

 

[Dawgbite]

I'd take a pay cut I I knew I'd never bump into Hugh Freeze around campus. Imagine having to ride on the same jet or in the same vehicle as him going to alumni events!

 

[NukeDogg]

Yeah we have the stadium, and the fan support, but these are sitting head coaches at SEC schools. Do we really expect that bringing them to State is going to work out much better than what they've done during their tenures at UK and AU? If you imagine for a second that we hire one of them, and then repeat what they just accomplished for our next X years:

In the last 8 years (not counting 2020) under Butch, Auburn has:
Made a regional - 4
Hosted a regional - 2
Made the Supers - 3
Hosted a Super - 1
Made the CWS - 2 times

4/8 years in regionals is only .500 average for the postseason. Not good enough. We should NEVER miss a regional. AU turning those 4 regionals into 3 supers and into 2 CWS is a good success rate, but he's not making it there often enough. And hosting only once is not nearly enough.

In the last 7 years under Mingione, UK has:
Made a regional - 3
Hosted a regional - 3
Made the Supers - 3
Hosted a Super - 1
Made the CWS - 1

Seems like it's all or nothing with them. Every postseason appearance went to a Super, but they were in 2017 (his first year), 2023, and 2024 (made CWS). 4 seasons in between (sandwiched around 2020 COVID year) where they missed the postseason. Like I said, we should shoot for making a regional 100% of the time, barring some horrendous rash of injuries. Hosting 3 out of 7 years is great, but completely missing the postseason the other 4 years is not.

 

[Perd Hapley]

This doesn't address your question about familarity, but IMO, we can probably stop talking about Mingione. With that buyout and UK wanting to keep him, I think he's out of the discussion. Most people automatically think he would come if we offered him because we're Mississippi State, but UK did give him his first HC gig. He's probably fairly loyal to them at this point.

I’m not sure we could get either of them. The question is, do we try?

 

[eckie1]

By far and away the 3 worst programs historically in SEC baseball are Auburn, Kentucky, and Missouri. Pretty much every other program has fairly strong recent or long term history. But those 3 have been cellar dwellars for most of their SEC existence (and in Mizzou’s case, their entire existence).

2 of those 3 programs are headed up by former Cohen assistants who are both having historic success at their location.

Butch Thompson has taken Auburn to 2 of their 6 trips to Omaha, which are their only trips this century. Since the tourney field expanded to 64 in 1999, Auburn has only been to 4 super regionals. 3 of those 4 are under Butch.

Shifting over to Kentucky, Nick Mingione has been the only coach to ever do anything notable there besides Cohen. Kentucky has only won 3 regionals ever. All of them occurred under Mingione. He has their only CWS appearance last year. He won the regular season SEC title last year as well. That was year 7 for him, so nobody would say that wasn’t “his team”.

And sure, both have had some down years too. But that’s just part of the cyclical nature of college baseball. The last 4 coaches at MSU have all had multiple down years.

All that being said, whenever anyone brings up hiring either one of them at MSU, most people seem to cringe. Why is that? It seems like a lot of folks think there is some magic lightning in a bottle candidate out there and everyone thinks “their” diamond in the rough candidate is the one. I’d say give me either Butch or Mingione over 99% of any of the other candidates I’ve seen mentioned.

Just throwing this out there. Mizzery won the CWS in the 50s, and have been runner up 3 more times. 6 total CWS appearances.

They’ve sucked ever since the early 60’s, but they’ve had even more success in Omaha than we have, even though it was decades ago.

 

[Perd Hapley]

Yeah we have the stadium, and the fan support, but these are sitting head coaches at SEC schools. Do we really expect that bringing them to State is going to work out much better than what they've done during their tenures at UK and AU? If you imagine for a second that we hire one of them, and then repeat what they just accomplished for our next X years:

In the last 8 years (not counting 2020) under Butch, Auburn has:
Made a regional - 4
Hosted a regional - 2
Made the Supers - 3
Hosted a Super - 1
Made the CWS - 2 times

4/8 years in regionals is only .500 average for the postseason. Not good enough. We should NEVER miss a regional. AU turning those 4 regionals into 3 supers and into 2 CWS is a good success rate, but he's not making it there often enough. And hosting only once is not nearly enough.

In the last 7 years under Mingione, UK has:
Made a regional - 3
Hosted a regional - 3
Made the Supers - 3
Hosted a Super - 1
Made the CWS - 1

Seems like it's all or nothing with them. Every postseason appearance went to a Super, but they were in 2017 (his first year), 2023, and 2024 (made CWS). 4 seasons in between (sandwiched around 2020 COVID year) where they missed the postseason. Like I said, we should shoot for making a regional 100% of the time, barring some horrendous rash of injuries. Hosting 3 out of 7 years is great, but completely missing the postseason the other 4 years is not.

The question is whether or not you view MSU as being at a substantial advantage to both Auburn and UK? If you do, then you can raise the bar of what each would accomplish here substantially vs. what they have done thus far.

Cohen has already proven this. Did win the SEC at UK one year, but did little else. No postseason success. .426 SEC winning %. Then he gets to MSU and we are in the CWS finals 5 years later. We add an SEC title. Add 2 other Super Regional appearances. Both Mingione and Butch have already done way more where they currently are than Cohen did at UK.

 

[onewoof]

MSU GETS THE NEXT OKLAHOMA HAND ME DOWN

 

[PBRME]

If we end up with Butch or Ming our coaching search failed, and we wasted money firing Lem.

 

[patdog]

If we end up with Butch or Ming our coaching search failed, and we wasted money firing Lem.

And we should fire Selmon. I don’t think we go after either though. And I doubt either would come if we did. Mingione probably would, but we’re not paying that buyout & I doubt he wants to pay it.

 

[DAWGSANDSAINTS]

I really don’t know who we try and get.
Dallas Baptist, Virginia, Clemson coaches, Butch T ?
I do think we should make a Regional every year.
Host a Regional 6-10 years, SR 3-4 times in 10 years and make a trip to Omaha at least 2 times every 10 years.
I don’t think that’s a stretch but it may be in today’s 17-ed up world of college athletics?

 

[Perd Hapley]

Our program has mostly underachieved badly the last 20 years since we rehired Polk.

In the last 20 years we have 13 regionals, 8 Super Regionals, and 5 CWS appearances in which we’ve won the national title, finished as a national runner-up, and finished tied for 3rd….under each of 3 different coaches. That’s….mostly under

He left Cohen a disaster.

Agreed. And based on the way the past 4 years have looked, I’d be willing to bet the chances of Lemonis leaving ___________ a disaster are damn near 100%. That’s usually how it works with performance based coaching changes.

I’m fact, Lemonis had a better record than Butch by every measurement and we fired him.

The record was better but the trend was much worse. And Auburn is not MSU.

 

[patdog]

In the last 20 years we have 13 regionals, 8 Super Regionals, and 5 CWS appearances in which we’ve won the national title, finished as a national runner-up, and finished tied for 3rd….under each of 3 different coaches. That’s….mostly under


Agreed. And based on the way the past 4 years have looked, I’d be willing to bet the chances of Lemonis leaving ___________ a disaster are damn near 100%. That’s usually how it works with performance based coaching changes.


The record was better but the trend was much worse. And Auburn is not MSU.

1 - way underperformed in regional appearances. And 6 single-digit SEC win seasons when even 1 is unacceptable. Not bad on the other metrics though. The years we’ve been good we’ve been really good. The years we’ve been bad, we’ve been unbelievably bad.

2 - agree

3 - agree about the trend. But there’s no reason Auburn shouldn’t be successful in baseball with their resources & proximity to rich recruiting bases in Georgia & north Florida.

 

[Pilgrimdawg]

I'd take a pay cut I I knew I'd never bump into Hugh Freeze around campus. Imagine having to ride on the same jet or in the same vehicle as him going to alumni events!

I would never want to be on a jet with Hugh Freeze. You know that God has that dude in his cross hairs and no one wants to be collateral damage.

 

[Lucifer Morningstar]

I would never want to be on a jet with Hugh Freeze. You know that God has that dude in his cross hairs and no one wants to be collateral damage.

His deal is with me. Dad gets him when I am done. Same reason Saban is holding on so hard. Deals are coming due.

 

[Anon1665155225]

It does if You’re talking about 2 guys either sub .500 SEC records. And no, dorm years aren’t just part of the cyclical nature of baseball. How many down years has Bianco had?

More than one but your point is taken.

 

[leeinator]

we bring a helluva a lot more in facilities than either of them

I'd take either one, but favor Mingione a little bit more. His teams seem to play with more swagger than Butch's. Some people don't like Mingione's quiet aggressiveness, but I do. He'd do a whole lot better at MSU with our resources and fanbase. I think we'd be in a Regional EVERY year under him.

 

[leeinator]

I’m not sure we could get either of them. The question is, do we try?

I'd at least interview both if they are interested. And Lane Burroughs too.

 

[HuntDawg]

I dont cringe when I heare Mingione. I think he'd be a good hire... and one i'd hire on the spot if he was intersted in the job. Not saying I think he'd take things to the next level, but he'd be a guy that would solidify things, because I do think Lemonis is leaving more of a train wreck than some think.. and i also think our NIL is quickly becoming a disadvantage.

I'm not sure Butch is the guy. Auburn has some advantages that we dont have here that he hasnt really taken full advantage of. I dont consider Auburn in the realm of Kentucky or Mizzou in terms of school, stadium, program, location... and butch has had some nice years but he's also laid some eggs... and i wouldnt think he'd do any better here, and i dont think his run at auburn would make people happy here.

To get a good coach though, we are going to have to open the checkbook.... it also wouldnt hurt if we had a solid NIL figure we could throw infront of him.

 

[The Cooterpoot]

Neither But h nor Ming are going to be our coach and I'm good with it! State people get too damn hung up on "State people". It's very Keenum -esque.

 

[BulldogBlitz]

Does familiarity breed contempt amongst MSU fans?​

Nah. Both Mullins and Vic would be welcomed back to coach baseball.

 

[patdog]

More than one but your point is taken.

Four in 25 years by my count. But really only the last two (23 & 24) were as bad as our big down years have been.

 

[NukeDogg]

The question is whether or not you view MSU as being at a substantial advantage to both Auburn and UK? If you do, then you can raise the bar of what each would accomplish here substantially vs. what they have done thus far.

Cohen has already proven this. Did win the SEC at UK one year, but did little else. No postseason success. .426 SEC winning %. Then he gets to MSU and we are in the CWS finals 5 years later. We add an SEC title. Add 2 other Super Regional appearances. Both Mingione and Butch have already done way more where they currently are than Cohen did at UK.

My personal measuring stick is that we should never miss a regional, and we should host at least half of them. Should we automatically fire our coach for missing one postseason? No. Should we fire our coach for finishing DFL in the SEC? Not if it's just one time. But missing regionals 50% of the time should get you canned here. Missing two in a row should get your seat flaming hot.

If we hire Butch or Ming and they just repeat their current success, it's a wasted hire. Do I think they're good enough to elevate their results with the resources at State? I sure hope so. But someone needs to throw out a realistic number of what our NIL budget looks like to be able to answer that better. In the last week I've been told our baseball NIL is terrible, declining, nowhere as good as we think it is, and I've been told it's Top 5 already and will go higher with the right hire. So who the 17 really knows.

These days the NIL budget is way more important than huge stadiums and record crowds when determining future success. Why play for $200k in front of 16k fans when you can play for $400k in front of 13k fans at LSU or Ole Miss or Arkansas or wherever the hell the next stadium expansion happens.

 

[HuntDawg]

My personal measuring stick is that we should never miss a regional, and we should host at least half of them. Should we automatically fire our coach for missing one postseason? No. Should we fire our coach for finishing DFL in the SEC? Not if it's just one time. But missing regionals 50% of the time should get you canned here. Missing two in a row should get your seat flaming hot.

If we hire Butch or Ming and they just repeat their current success, it's a wasted hire. Do I think they're good enough to elevate their results with the resources at State? I sure hope so. But someone needs to throw out a realistic number of what our NIL budget looks like to be able to answer that better. In the last week I've been told our baseball NIL is terrible, declining, nowhere as good as we think it is, and I've been told it's Top 5 already and will go higher with the right hire. So who the 17 really knows.

These days the NIL budget is way more important than huge stadiums and record crowds when determining future success. Why play for $200k in front of 16k fans when you can play for $400k in front of 13k fans at LSU or Ole Miss or Arkansas or wherever the hell the next stadium expansion happens.

I can assure you of this:

Our NIL in the SEC alone is behind:
Tenn
Texas
Texas AM
LSU
Arkansas
Florida
Georgia

And its WAAAAAY behind the top 4 on that list.

Id assume we are in the neighborhood if not better than schools like Ole Miss, Auburn.... and probably better than Oklahoma, Kentucky, Vandy, Alabama,

We arent top 5 or close to it.

 

[NukeDogg]

I can assure you of this:

Our NIL in the SEC alone is behind:
Tenn
Texas
Texas AM
LSU
Arkansas
Florida
Georgia

And its WAAAAAY behind the top 4 on that list.

Id assume we are in the neighborhood if not better than schools like Ole Miss, Auburn.... and probably better than Oklahoma, Kentucky, Vandy, Alabama,

We arent top 5 or close to it.

You may be exactly right with that ranking...it's entirely believable. And I truly mean no offense, but everyone has some version of "I promise it's..." or "I can assure you it's..." when they talk about NIL.

Hell, you might be Charlie's alternate account and know exactly to the penny what it is. Or you might have heard from a coworker whose uncle's boss's wife goes to church with Ron Polk's dog groomer and heard it was shi++y.

 

[onewoof]

Calm down, Texas is only planning to spend $35M to $40M for this year's class, only 10X our spend