Cards fans...Perez looked good tonight

oem

New member
Feb 23, 2008
389
0
0
That's about all they could do. It looked for awhile that the bullpen was going to implode again tonight. Perez looked OK until he walked the leadoff man in the ninth and was a pitch or two away from putting the tying run on with Rameirez at the plate.

I don't think he's the answer. That wasn't exactly the '27 Yankees he was facing. But he is probably going to have the job until Wainwright gets back. And I've got to think if AW is as effective as he was in '06, he will stay there this time.
 

PineGroveBully

New member
Nov 13, 2007
8,508
0
0
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/cardinals/story/DAA89EB84D20B9DA8625749E00107B50?OpenDocument

"We moved him up since he's probably going to come back as a reliever," general manager John Mozeliak said. "It's not set. There's a chance before he comes back that we have a solution and it's not a need. Then he'll come back as a starter. We want to be prepared. Right now, everything is on the table." <div id="Frame1" style="FLOAT: right; MARGIN: 20px 0px 20px 20px"> </div>

Hopefully Perez will hold onto the job and it will be a mute point and we can get Adam back in the rotation.

I was too lazy to scroll down 2 nights ago to see if that guy that was talking about how back Carp looked against the Braves commented on how bad he looked against the Dodgers. 9 innings, 1 run. I'll take it.
 

Indndawg

Active member
Nov 16, 2005
6,816
361
83
The Cards have had Dodger balls dating back to 1985.</p>

Now if this can happen this can happen to the: Cubs, Brewers, Phils,and Mets.</p>

Then that's something to be excited about</p>
 

PBRME

Well-known member
Feb 12, 2004
10,056
2,969
113
Perez was bringing the gas last night. I especially enjoyed the Kent looking called 3rd strike, and his following reaction. The commentators were saying Kent approached that at bat like he didn't want to be there.
 

pujols.sixpack

New member
Aug 5, 2007
48
0
0
Wainwright will face twice as many batters and factor more heavily as a starter.

It will allow us to move Pineiro to the pen.

They should promote Jason Motte and let Motte, McLellan, Franklin, and Perez handle the late innings. Springer, Thompason, Garcia, and Pineiro handle middle relief.

The pen that helped win a world series in 06 was almost all rookies. Kinney, Johnson, and Wainwright were the majority of the innings that postseason. Let Motte and Perez be the stoppers.
 

Todd4State

New member
Mar 3, 2008
17,411
1
0
but based on the fact that Izzy and Franklin haven't gotten the job done, and there isn't anyone on the market that would be worth getting, Perez might be the best they can do.

I really think the problem before was that they were using Perez in middle relief, and he has been a closer at least as far back as Miami. It's sort of like playing a guy who is a left fielder at third base. (Not really, but that's about as close as I can get.)

I think the reason that they are talking about Wainwright in the bullpen was in part because Piniero pitched respecatbly last night.
 

PineGroveBully

New member
Nov 13, 2007
8,508
0
0
The bullpen has blown 26 saves this year, most in majors. Pinero sucks as a starter and you want to move him to the pen.
I agree that rookies in the pen helped win the 06 series but those were rookies that were in the big leagues all year, not guys that would be receiving their first big league taste in the heat of a pennant race in August.

And you missed half the point of the article, IF Perez is taking care of business in the 9th then Wainwright will start.

They are toying with a 4 man rotation for most of the rest of the season, esp in August because they have 4 off days remaining in August. Lohse, Looper, Wellemeyer, and Carp have all been solid so they need is more glaring in the 9th, not in the rotation.
 

pujols.sixpack

New member
Aug 5, 2007
48
0
0
Wainwright will face twice as many batters in 8-10 starts than he would as a closer.

The point is also to make the postseason. In the postseason, we would need Wainwright ready to start.

Carpenter, Wainwright, Loshe is the type of playoff rotation that can dominate.

Piniero wouldn't necessarily bolster the pen that much, but he can eat a few innings.

I think Perez can handle the closer's role. He needs to be given the chance. Wainwright is an ace as a starter.
 

PineGroveBully

New member
Nov 13, 2007
8,508
0
0
He will be given the oppurtunity between now and the time Adam is back. IF Perez can do it then Adam will start. But if he cant, then there will be no postseason if we keep blowing saves. We have noone else that can do the job. And yes he will face more batters but the starters in the rotation arent the problem right now, its the bullpen, esp. the 9th inning.

I agree Wainwright is needed in the rotation but not as much as needed in the pen, if Perez cant do the job. That is what this whole conversation is hinged on.
 

Todd4State

New member
Mar 3, 2008
17,411
1
0
PineGroveBully said:
The bullpen has blown 26 saves this year, most in majors.

</p>

If the Cardinals only had 13, which is still a lot, they would probably be in first place.
 

oem

New member
Feb 23, 2008
389
0
0
PineGroveBully said:
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/cardinals/story/DAA89EB84D20B9DA8625749E00107B50?OpenDocument

"We moved him up since he's probably going to come back as a reliever," general manager John Mozeliak said. "It's not set. There's a chance before he comes back that we have a solution and it's not a need. Then he'll come back as a starter. We want to be prepared. Right now, everything is on the table." <div id="Frame1" style="FLOAT: right; MARGIN: 20px 0px 20px 20px"> That would be me. And as it turns out, I was right - AGAIN. He's out with a strained shoulder. And before you say that could have happened in the minor leagues, course anything can happen. But there is no question in my mind that he pushed the envelope by being in the major leagues. If he had gone through his normal rehab assignment, he could have eased back into it. Once they put him in the major leagues, he really didn't have a choice. The Dodger outing not withstanding, he wasn't ready. And something tells me LaRussa agrees with me. </div>

Hopefully Perez will hold onto the job and it will be a mute point and we can get Adam back in the rotation.

I was too lazy to scroll down 2 nights ago to see if that guy that was talking about how back Carp looked against the Braves commented on how bad he looked against the Dodgers. 9 innings, 1 run. I'll take it.

</p>
 

Todd4State

New member
Mar 3, 2008
17,411
1
0
First of all, you talk about how you are always right and you went on and on about how Perez wasn't ready to be the closer. Since he has come back in four appearances he has 3 saves, seven K's and an ERA of 0.00 and has only allowed one hit on 5 and a third innings.

Secondly, I'm pretty sure that Carpenter strained his triceps against the Cubs. His ERA since he has come back is 1.88 and that includes his outing against the Cubs, who have the best record in the NL and the Dodgers who are in first place in the West and had the hottest hitter in baseball at that time Manny Ramirez on their team. His velocity on his fastball and his command (except in the Braves game on the command part) looked fine as well before the strain.
 

DesotoCountyDawg

Well-known member
Nov 16, 2005
23,960
12,954
113
Saying they didnt ease him into it is a stretch. If he had rehab starts he would have had the same pitch counts and the injury probably still would have happened. And its a triceps strain injury not a shoulder.
 

PineGroveBully

New member
Nov 13, 2007
8,508
0
0
He has not thrown more than 70 pitches in a game. IF he had of had those same 3 starts in the minors they would have wanted him at 85 pitches about the same time of the Cubs game. And there wasnt any easing back. I pretty much happened on that one pitch. That one pitch could have happpend in Memphis, Springfield, Quad Cities, Johnson City, or even Jupiter Florida during extended-spring training or any where else he could have been making rehab starts.
 

RebelBruiser

New member
Aug 21, 2007
7,349
0
0
Todd4State said:
PineGroveBully said:
The bullpen has blown 26 saves this year, most in majors.


If the Cardinals only had 13, which is still a lot, they would probably be in first place.

</p>

Unfortunately, relief pitching is a part of the equation, and it's not all that easy to fix a bad bullpen. I honestly believe that the main problem for the Cardinals's pen has been the fact that they're always involved in 1 or 2 run games. If you look at the XW-L column for the Cards, which is determined based on how many runs you score versus how many you allow, it says the Cards should be 65-58. They're sitting at 67-56 though. That tells me they've had a lot of close wins this year.

I said the same thing about the Ole Miss bullpen in 2007. Bittle and Satterwhite teamed up to blow a lot of saves that year. Looking back though, it would've helped them a lot had they not constantly been coming in for 1 or 2 run games. Relievers are going to give up runs on occasion. If you're calling on them to hold a 1 or 2 run lead every night, they're going to stack up some blown saves, simply because they can't be perfect every night.

Looking at the stats, the Cards lead the NL in save opportunities with 60 this year. That's a lot of close games.
 

PineGroveBully

New member
Nov 13, 2007
8,508
0
0
I believe you are 100% right. Every single night its a one or two run game. This causes them to have to use their specialists more, which gives them more oppurtunity to fail. Our offense is so prone to scoring in one big inning and then zeros the rest of the game. ie Tuesday night in Florida, 3 runs first inning, none afterwards.

T</p>
 

oem

New member
Feb 23, 2008
389
0
0
If you guys don't think that pitchers ramp it up a few notches in the big leagues - especially someone as competitive as Carpenter - then it really isn't worth discussing baseball with you. Like I said, it could have happened in the minors. But its more likely to happen when you are trying to push the envelop. Even LaRussa said he probably wasn't ready when they brought him to town, but they felt like the team "needed a lift". And the problem is a shoulder strain. He might start playing catch again this weekend.
 

oem

New member
Feb 23, 2008
389
0
0
Todd, don't take this the wrong way, but you are a sports idiot. A Cardinal hits a couple of homeruns in Double A, and you have them tagged as the next Barry Bonds. A guy gets a couple of saves, and he's the next Bruce Sutter. You must not actually watch the games. Because when Perez got sent down, it was because hitters were sitting on his fastball, and hitting them really, really hard. He's had a nice little run since he's been back, but LaRussa said himself he was going to be careful in the way he used him so he wouldn't destroy his confidence. If Carpenter hadn't gone down, Wainwright was coming back as the closer, which ought to tell you the Cardinal brass agreed with me - that Perez wasn't ready. And please spare me with talk of that offensive juggernaut called the Dodgers. You pitch around Rameirez, and you have a team that struggles to score runs many nights. I've got to ask you, where did that 1.88 ERA get him? That's right. Back in St Louis visiting the team doctor. Exactly where you want a guy that you could use for the stretch run. Right? LaRussa said they rushed him back to give the team a lift. I think you must be a Cardinal fan only because you got a cap when you were playing right field in Tom Thumb. Because it's pretty obvious, you don't follow them very closely. Let me give you a tip, Todd. If you are going to sound even remotely intelligent about sports, put down the box scores and watch a game.
 

oem

New member
Feb 23, 2008
389
0
0
I think the biggest problem with the bullpen is that the rotation is made up of too many guys who are 5/6 inning pitchers on too many nights. That usually comes back to haunt you this time of year. That and Isrignhausen's good year last year actually turned out to be a bad thing this year.
 

Todd4State

New member
Mar 3, 2008
17,411
1
0
I challenge you to show me a post where I have proclaimed ANYONE in the Cardinals organization the next Barry Bonds or Bruce Sutter. I said what I did about Perez because I happen to realize that he is the Cardinals best option to be the closer. Believe me, if they go get K-Rod, I would be ALL for it, but that ain't gonna happen, unless K-Rod had some kind of Manny-esque run in with the Angels organization. Izzy and Franklin are blowing saves left and right. That article on Wainwright you dug up is old- it talked about the "bullpen blowing up last night" and they just happened to beat the Marlins last night. I'm sure that Perez has some things to work on- he is a rookie after all. But the fact is, until Papelbon pisses off the Red Sox organization, he is the best option. If he blows a save, how is that any different than Izzy or Franklin blowing a save? Furthermore, the Cardinals didn't draft Perez in the 1st round to get a couple of hitters out in the sixth inning. They drafted him to be a closer. That's what he did at Miami, that's what's done in the minors, and more the likely that is what he will do in the Major Leagues. I'm going to tell you something else, if his confidence gets destroyed after one bad outing, he's not going to make it in the Big Leagues anyway.

And the Cardinals brass obviously agree with me because he has looked pretty good since he has been up. I don't know what your problem with Perez is, but I'm sorry he ate your kitten.

Also, if your going to talk about pitching injuries, you need to do some research. You never addressed the fact his velocity and command were good- even in the game where he got the strain. A strain CAN occur suddenly. I can maybe buy your arguement if he was struggling, but he didn't. This is likely a minor thing and he will probably be back before the end of this year- although I'm holding my breath given the Cardinals recent "luck" with injuries. Normally you can fix a strain with rest, and of course ice.

Actually, I've been (officially) a Cardinal fan since 1985. And ironically, in case anyone was wondering, I was given an opportunity to coach a 9th grade baseball team and turned it down. (True story) I go to St. Louis at least once a year- I have sixapackers that can vouche, and honestly if I had to move anywhere it would be there. My Dad is from Cape Girardeau, but the biggest reason I pull for them is because my uncle used to pitch for them in the late 70's. Ironically, he was their closer and replaced by a guy named Bruce Sutter. He later became a minor league pitching coach for the Royals and Brewer, and when I was in college he would let me hang out at spring training. I learned A LOT about baseball from him and some of the other coaches just watching and talking to them. My Dad played baseball at State in the 70's, and married my Mom who is from Jackson. That's why I'm so passionate about MSU baseball. These last seven years were pretty tough for me, with the exception of a couple of fleeting moments. My Dad actually taught me more about baseball than my uncle. But both me and my Dad are excited about Cohen.

Sorry about my life story- but you obviously have some issues. You completely ignore facts and for some reason you still believe you're right. Even if it means digging up an article from a month ago to prove your point. If a pitcher is hurt, you're going to see him pitch like Mulder did- his velocity and command are both going to be off. That's what you look for if you suspect a pitcher is hurt. And that just didn't happen with Carpenter. I'm sure you know a lot about baseball, and it's certainly OK to disagree about things, and I'm certainly not going to sit here and say I know more than you, especially in light of saddawg's football post, but I don't know why you feel like you always have to be right, because it doesn't make you look knowledgable, it makes look like a tool.
 

oem

New member
Feb 23, 2008
389
0
0
Todd4State said:
I challenge you to show me a post where I have proclaimed ANYONE in the Cardinals organization the next Barry Bonds or Bruce Sutter. I said what I did about Perez because I happen to realize that he is the Cardinals best option to be the closer. Believe me, if they go get K-Rod, I would be ALL for it, but that ain't gonna happen, unless K-Rod had some kind of Manny-esque run in with the Angels organization. Izzy and Franklin are blowing saves left and right. That article on Wainwright you dug up is old- it talked about the "bullpen blowing up last night" and they just happened to beat the Marlins last night. I'm sure that Perez has some things to work on- he is a rookie after all. But the fact is, until Papelbon pisses off the Red Sox organization, he is the best option. If he blows a save, how is that any different than Izzy or Franklin blowing a save? Furthermore, the Cardinals didn't draft Perez in the 1st round to get a couple of hitters out in the sixth inning. They drafted him to be a closer. That's what he did at Miami, that's what's done in the minors, and more the likely that is what he will do in the Major Leagues. I'm going to tell you something else, if his confidence gets destroyed after one bad outing, he's not going to make it in the Big Leagues anyway.

And the Cardinals brass obviously agree with me because he has looked pretty good since he has been up. I don't know what your problem with Perez is, but I'm sorry he ate your kitten.

Also, if your going to talk about pitching injuries, you need to do some research. You never addressed the fact his velocity and command were good- even in the game where he got the strain. A strain CAN occur suddenly. I can maybe buy your arguement if he was struggling, but he didn't. This is likely a minor thing and he will probably be back before the end of this year- although I'm holding my breath given the Cardinals recent "luck" with injuries. Normally you can fix a strain with rest, and of course ice.

Actually, I've been (officially) a Cardinal fan since 1985. And ironically, in case anyone was wondering, I was given an opportunity to coach a 9th grade baseball team and turned it down. (True story) I go to St. Louis at least once a year- I have sixapackers that can vouche, and honestly if I had to move anywhere it would be there. My Dad is from Cape Girardeau, but the biggest reason I pull for them is because my uncle used to pitch for them in the late 70's. Ironically, he was their closer and replaced by a guy named Bruce Sutter. He later became a minor league pitching coach for the Royals and Brewer, and when I was in college he would let me hang out at spring training. I learned A LOT about baseball from him and some of the other coaches just watching and talking to them. My Dad played baseball at State in the 70's, and married my Mom who is from Jackson. That's why I'm so passionate about MSU baseball. These last seven years were pretty tough for me, with the exception of a couple of fleeting moments. My Dad actually taught me more about baseball than my uncle. But both me and my Dad are excited about Cohen.

Sorry about my life story- but you obviously have some issues. You completely ignore facts and for some reason you still believe you're right. Even if it means digging up an article from a month ago to prove your point. If a pitcher is hurt, you're going to see him pitch like Mulder did- his velocity and command are both going to be off. That's what you look for if you suspect a pitcher is hurt. And that just didn't happen with Carpenter. I'm sure you know a lot about baseball, and it's certainly OK to disagree about things, and I'm certainly not going to sit here and say I know more than you, especially in light of saddawg's football post, but I don't know why you feel like you always have to be right, because it doesn't make you look knowledgable, it makes look like a tool.

</p>Good lord, son. Did you have to write a book? I'm not basing anything on an article from a month ago. Wainwright was destined for the pen until last Sunday night - and may still be. And if he ends up back in the rotation, it has nothing to do with Chris Perez's good week. It has everything to do with Chris Carpenter's shoulder http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sp...82A8D57D1418799C862574A4000BD259?OpenDocument
 

cheat2win

New member
Aug 4, 2008
177
0
0
Wainwright to the pen to me makes a great fit. True he will face more batters as a starter but we have blown 27 saves this year. Saves not starts will be the key to the run at the end.
 

Todd4State

New member
Mar 3, 2008
17,411
1
0
about LaRussa. He would rather go with someone that has more experience than a younger player, never mind that the younger player is getting the job done. What I got out of that article was Perez is the closer until he screws up. The article could also be saying that they aren't all that confident that Wainwright will be healthy enough to start.

I would just rather have (assuming all are healthy) a rotation of Carpenter, Wainwright, Lohse, Looper, and Wellenmyer IF at all possible.

I remember in 2001 he wanted to start Fernando Tatis ahead of some guy named Albert Pujols at third base.
 

oem

New member
Feb 23, 2008
389
0
0
Todd4State said:
about LaRussa. He would rather go with someone that has more experience than a younger player, never mind that the younger player is getting the job done. What I got out of that article was Perez is the closer until he screws up. The article could also be saying that they aren't all that confident that Wainwright will be healthy enough to start.

I would just rather have (assuming all are healthy) a rotation of Carpenter, Wainwright, Lohse, Looper, and Wellenmyer IF at all possible.

I remember in 2001 he wanted to start Fernando Tatis ahead of some guy named Albert Pujols at third base.

</p>Then send him your manifesto.