Coach Prime has kicked another ant hill

[mstateglfr]

Yep, saying I can't pray on public property is just as bad as saying I have to pray on public property. Majority of that locker room is made of blacks. The black community is very religious. Just watch every Mississippi State home game. Majority of both teams always head to the endzone to pray. I seriously doubt anyone in the locker room feels uncomfortable. In fact, I would think majority of them appreciates it.

Solid job with the generalizations.
Whether specific people in a specific moment in time are offended or feel pressured to participate in religious activities is beside the point.

Like so many things, how is this something is not actually known and understood by all adults? Like, how have people managed to miss this as a point to learn about?
A coach should not hold group prayer where they lead because it creates a situation where people may silently feel pressured to participate in religious practices that they dont agree with. A coach can pray by themselves.


Getting into 'well this group of kids is mostly black and black people are often religious' is a completely dumb justification.
This is an issue that has been highly contentious and led to multiple court cases. Its laughable that such a divisive and complex issue could be resolved with 'I bet the kids dont mind'.

 

[GloryDawg]

Solid job with the generalizations.
Whether specific people in a specific moment in time are offended or feel pressured to participate in religious activities is beside the point.

Like so many things, how is this something is not actually known and understood by all adults? Like, how have people managed to miss this as a point to learn about?
A coach should not hold group prayer where they lead because it creates a situation where people may silently feel pressured to participate in religious practices that they dont agree with. A coach can pray by themselves.


Getting into 'well this group of kids is mostly black and black people are often religious' is a completely dumb justification.
This is an issue that has been highly contentious and led to multiple court cases. Its laughable that such a divisive and complex issue could be resolved with 'I bet the kids dont mind'.

Your problem is you see things through the eyes of a Liberal and believe, like a Liberal. Liberals believe that anyone who don't think or believe like them are mental midget and can't think or feel for themselves. Big *** grown men feeling pressure to pray in a locker room especially with the transfer portal just isn't going to happen. Worse case they walk out of the room. When you post you come off as an arrogant Prema Donna with long meaningless post that no one wants to read all the way through.

 

[mstateglfr]

Your problem is you see things through the eyes of a Liberal and believe, like a Liberal. Liberals believe that anyone who don't think or believe like them are mental midget and can't think or feel for themselves. Big *** grown men feeling pressure to pray in a locker room especially with the transfer portal just isn't going to happen. Worse case they walk out of the room. When you post you come off as an arrogant Prema Donna with long meaningless post that no one wants to read all the way through.

Ah, so we are now onto the part of the thread where I am ripped on. Cool.***

This isnt me seeing things thru the eyes of a liberal, its me simply citing actual caselaw that explains the incredibly complex issue, and a chucklehead who essentially responds with 'I dont care'.
Me citing examples that both hurt Neon's case and support Neon's case, is not me seeing things thru the eyes of a liberal. I mean I even cite the ruling from a case that is mentioned in support of prayer.
Its just that actual caselaw isnt on 'your' side, so I am apparently seeing things thru the eyes of a liberal.

Messenger shot, I get it.

 

[CochiseCowbell]

Remember when we were discussing Jobu in this thread?

Good times.

 

[johnson86-1]

How is this still a thing?

A public state employee at a public institution cant initiate prayer or religious activity. If individuals acting privately choose to pray, that is acceptable.
This is based on Santa Fe ISD v Doe back when I was in college 20+ years ago.

A coach can pray. Nobody is stopping a coach from praying, therefore your concern that someone's religious freedom is being trumped is not applicable.
This article specifically cites what I posted about earlier- the concern for players being pressured to pray.
Now with that said, it is ironic that you dont recognize that if someone feels compelled to participate in prayer they dont personally agree with, that they should just apparently suck it up and do so. After all, where is their freedom of religion? All this goes back to the power dynamic- a coach has an influence on playing time and if someone perceives participation is expected, they no longer have that freedom you so dearly claim to hold in high regard.

Now with this said, the current circus that is SCOTUS ruled in Kennedy v Bremerton that a coach can pray when students and observers are nearby. One side took that ruling and immediately misconstrued it in order to get some talking points for their narrative going in the social discourse, but ultimately what was decided was very limited in scope.
Abington SD's ruling still stands- public school employees cant lead students in prayer. In Kennedy, players werent asked to join.
Again, a coach can absolutely pray on their own.





Nuance and complex navigation thru confusing and detailed issues isnt typically a strong point of SPS, so if you dont understand and instead just rant away with ignorant outrage, I will understand.

You are assuming that high school students and college students are treated the same in case law, and I doubt that's the case. But also, nobody has to participate. They just have to not interrupt the coach or disrupt the prayer. Same if a coach wants to emphasize that he doesn't believe in god and everything he has is due to his own efforts. There is the potential that coaches will abuse their position and let personnel decisions be influenced by disagreement over religious or political positions. But it doesn't mean college coaches can't be religious in front of their kids or talk about their political positions. Just a little bit of tolerance goes a long way in a pluralistic society.

 

[mstateglfr]

You are assuming that high school students and college students are treated the same in case law, and I doubt that's the case. But also, nobody has to participate. They just have to not interrupt the coach or disrupt the prayer. Same if a coach wants to emphasize that he doesn't believe in god and everything he has is due to his own efforts. There is the potential that coaches will abuse their position and let personnel decisions be influenced by disagreement over religious or political positions. But it doesn't mean college coaches can't be religious in front of their kids or talk about their political positions. Just a little bit of tolerance goes a long way in a pluralistic society.

I am not assuming high school and college students are treated the same - my comments aren't based on age, rather they are based on public employees being the head of each scenario.
It would be equally inappropriate for a department head of a public school- high school or college- to call for a department group prayer.
But it would not be inappropriate for that department head to pray on their own.

It looks like many here underestimate the pressure of compliance and going with the group to not be singled out or treated differently.

I agree with you that a coach can be religious in front of their players. If a coach said 'I prayed we would win and Jesus listened!', that would likely be incorrect, but it would not violate the law in the manner I have been referring to.

I think it's great that a coach shares with their team the things that bring them strength, clarity, and peace.

 

[johnson86-1]

I am not assuming high school and college students are treated the same - my comments aren't based on age, rather they are based on public employees being the head of each scenario.
It would be equally inappropriate for a department head of a public school- high school or college- to call for a department group prayer.
But it would not be inappropriate for that department head to pray on their own.

It looks like many here underestimate the pressure of compliance and going with the group to not be singled out or treated differently.

I agree with you that a coach can be religious in front of their players. If a coach said 'I prayed we would win and Jesus listened!', that would likely be incorrect, but it would not violate the law in the manner I have been referring to.

I think it's great that a coach shares with their team the things that bring them strength, clarity, and peace.

How in the world can you reconcile the bolded statements, even in your head. You clearly are ignoring that the courts have treated establishment clause cases differently in primary and secondary education settings versus higher education settings.

 

[Cantdoitsal]

L

Protect my hurt feelings? That isnt even what this is about.
The fact that you dont care about court rulings, which are the official interpretation of the document you continue to cite, is flooded in irony.

I care not about the bastardization of original intent by God Hating POS's.

 

[mstateglfr]

How in the world can you reconcile the bolded statements, even in your head. You clearly are ignoring that the courts have treated establishment clause cases differently in primary and secondary education settings versus higher education settings.

I used the example of a department head at a public school to further highlight that age is not the main driver here. Minor students, adult aged students, adult employees - same concept for all because the improper suggestion of compliance exists at all levels.

If it's a Christian private university, we'll OK then- pray away.
Its a public institution that is funded on public tax money though.

Thats how I reconcile the bolded statements.

 

[mstateglfr]

I care not about the bastardization of original intent by God Hating POS's.

Um...the most recent ruling I cited would actually support your position, but OK then.

I do enjoy the idea that you know original intent, but legal scholars who were active church goers are 'God hating POS'.
It has to be nice to know you know original intent of vague and conflicting documents written 250 years ago.
And let's not get into all that those guys originally intended for our country either. That won't look good for you at all. Eek.

 

[Cantdoitsal]

Um...the most recent ruling I cited would actually support your position, but OK then.

I do enjoy the idea that you know original intent, but legal scholars who were active church goers are 'God hating POS'.
It has to be nice to know you know original intent of vague and conflicting documents written 250 years ago.
And let's not get into all that those guys originally intended for our country either. That won't look good for you at all. Eek.

The first clause in the Bill of Rights states that “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.”

The Supreme Court has ruled that the 14th Amendment (ratified in 1868) requires states to guarantee fundamental rights such as the First Amendment's prohibition against the establishment of religion. This means that states, like the federal government, can "make no law respecting an establishment of religion."

"Establishing" is the key word here meaning neither States nor Congress can make laws that establishes a Religion. Original Intent always was meant to insure citizens could choose their own religious practices or NOT practice religion if they choose to do so. It was designed to make sure no government at the State or Federal level could Establish a Religion where all citizens had to comply with what the State establised. These laws were CLEARLY designed to prevent government doing what England had done with the Church of England where all its citizens had to attend the State Established Church.
So Deion having Worship Meetings with his players by no means ESTABLISHES a government mandate to practice a particular Religion. Also, denying these meetings violates Deion's and his player's rights to Free Speech and Rights to Assemble.