Favorite place to hide your cowbell??

[615dawg]

Released today. After we've re-entered the Croom era, I dont even have the desire to discuss. Presented without comment:

#18 Vanderbilt
#28 Florida
#32 UT Austin
#47 UGA
#47 TX A&M
#93 Auburn
#105 Tennessee
#124 Missouri
#124 Oklahoma
#124 South Car
#159 Kentucky
#163 Mississippi
#170 Alabama
#178 Arkansas
#185 LSU
#216 Miss St

 

[DoggieDaddy13]

I thought Keenum had this all figured out. What gives?

 

[patdog]

I thought Keenum had this all figured out. What gives?

Keenum is a terrible president. He's killing us academically.

 

[DoggieDaddy13]

But he's an MSU grad - he's one of us - and worked in Washington for 30 years for Senator Cochran. I'm shocked.

 

[615dawg]

AL.com is covering the University of Alabama's 33-place drop.

US News and World Report 2023: How Alabama’s best colleges, HBCUs rank

New methodology emphasizes colleges' success in graduating students from different backgrounds.

www.al.com

Auburn, the highest ranked university in Alabama, jumped to 93rd, tied with Baylor, Gonzaga, University of Iowa and Loyola Marymount. Last year, the school was ranked 97th overall.

University of Alabama at Birmingham dropped five places to 142nd; University of Alabama dropped 33 places to 170th; and Samford dropped 58 places to 185th.

Birmingham Southern College made the liberal arts college list, ranking at 111th, down 35 spots from last year following the school’s near closure.

 

[catvet]

Keenum is horrible when it comes to academics. We raise a lot of money from alumni that should be going into hiring more accomplished facility. We don't. We still hire new grads who have no reputation, publications or research grants. We have lost ground every year in academic standing under his leadership.

 

[11thEagleFan]

These rankings are heavily influenced by things outside the administration’s control. For example, rates of admission handcuff OM, State, and USM because of the Ayers settlement. Likewise, graduation rate suffers as well, because if you’re an in-state student, you’re getting into those institutions no matter what, even if college isn’t the best path for you. Also, unless they’ve changed the methodology, alumni giving is a factor. Mississippi has the lowest median household income in the country. All of that to say, you can absolutely receive a world-class education at a public university in Mississippi.

 

[615dawg]

These rankings are heavily influenced by things outside the administration’s control. For example, rates of admission handcuff OM, State, and USM because of the Ayers settlement. Likewise, graduation rate suffers as well, because if you’re an in-state student, you’re getting into those institutions no matter what, even if college isn’t the best path for you. Also, unless they’ve changed the methodology, alumni giving is a factor. Mississippi has the lowest median household income in the country. All of that to say, you can absolutely receive a world-class education at a public university in Mississippi.

The methodology changed to give greater emphasis on social mobility (basically graduation rate of Pell Grant recipients). Mississippi State should be a national leader here. We aren't.

 

[11thEagleFan]

The methodology changed to give greater emphasis on social mobility (basically graduation rate of Pell Grant recipients). Mississippi State should be a national leader here. We aren't.

I would say that the changed methodology would have little to no effect then. Almost all of the students admitted as a result of Ayers are Pell Grant recipients. Many of them drop out during or after year 1.

 

[maroonfriday]

The methodology changed to give greater emphasis on social mobility (basically graduation rate of Pell Grant recipients). Mississippi State should be a national leader here. We aren't.

Our graduation rates of any kind have never been much to speak about and now we're being punished more for it. Doubling the social mobility and halving the faculty resources were major contributors to our drop.

 

[patdog]

These rankings are heavily influenced by things outside the administration’s control.

And yet every president before Keenum for the last 30+ years has had to deal with all of those things and produced much better academic rankings than Keenum has.

 

[Duke Humphrey]

And yet every president before Keenum for the last 30+ years has had to deal with all of those things and produced much better academic rankings than Keenum has.

US News has changed their rankings over the last 20 years in a direction not favorable to MSU. Academics at MSU are fine and a graduate from MSU can do anything he or she wants to do with a MSU degree.

 

[11thEagleFan]

Honestly I’ve never found these rankings to be all that important. I’ve never interviewed a job candidate and said, “Well I know that we liked the guy who graduated from Arkansas, but have you SEEN their latest ranking?”

 

[615dawg]

Honestly I’ve never found these rankings to be all that important. I’ve never interviewed a job candidate and said, “Well I know that we liked the guy who graduated from Arkansas, but have you SEEN their latest ranking?”

No, but perception of being last in the SEC academically and now last amongst the Power 5 takes its toll.

 

[rumsearch]

No, but perception of being last in the SEC academically and now last amongst the Power 5 takes its toll.

If rankings don’t matter then we have a great football team. Parents and prospective students do look at these rankings and they do make a difference for many (not all but many) when deciding where to go to school. Academic ranking should be a concern of the administration and if we rank poorly, that is on the administration.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

AL.com is covering the University of Alabama's 33-place drop.

US News and World Report 2023: How Alabama’s best colleges, HBCUs rank

New methodology emphasizes colleges' success in graduating students from different backgrounds.

www.al.com

Auburn, the highest ranked university in Alabama, jumped to 93rd, tied with Baylor, Gonzaga, University of Iowa and Loyola Marymount. Last year, the school was ranked 97th overall.

University of Alabama at Birmingham dropped five places to 142nd; University of Alabama dropped 33 places to 170th; and Samford dropped 58 places to 185th.

Birmingham Southern College made the liberal arts college list, ranking at 111th, down 35 spots from last year following the school’s near closure.

Wow, that al.com article sub-title tells you all you need to know about why higher education is tanking so badly. Graduating students from different backgrounds is now what they care about?

These rankings are nonsense and should be tossed aside as such.

 

[SouthFarmchicken]

Honestly I’ve never found these rankings to be all that important. I’ve never interviewed a job candidate and said, “Well I know that we liked the guy who graduated from Arkansas, but have you SEEN their latest ranking?”

I think you are correct in the Southeast as far as undergrads go but graduate school is a different story. State doesn’t have a law school but IF I had graduated from any in-state law schools, I wouldn’t even have gotten an interview at some places (even in the top 10%).

I have heard from doctor friends that it is similar for med school residencies, depending on your specialty.

 

[FlotownDawg]

This concerns me some about my daughter. She’s a sophomore at State and wants to be a physical therapist. Post graduate PT School is very competitive and even though she has straight A’s, I’m afraid some schools would look at the undergrad university rankings when deciding who to admit and that would hurt her chances.

 

[Maroon Eagle]

I have heard from doctor friends that it is similar for med school residencies, depending on your specialty.

YMMV with that.

As I’ve mentioned before, a close family member has a bachelor’s from State, went to med school at UMMC in Jackson, started post-doc medical training at Duke, and finished at Stanford.

But you’ve got to be *really* talented.

 

[Perd Hapley]

These rankings are heavily influenced by things outside the administration’s control. For example, rates of admission handcuff OM, State, and USM because of the Ayers settlement. Likewise, graduation rate suffers as well, because if you’re an in-state student, you’re getting into those institutions no matter what, even if college isn’t the best path for you. Also, unless they’ve changed the methodology, alumni giving is a factor. Mississippi has the lowest median household income in the country. All of that to say, you can absolutely receive a world-class education at a public university in Mississippi.

Tired excuse. All the Ayers stuff has the same effect on the #163 school on the list, too (the one ranked ahead of Alabama, LSU, and Arkansas). Doesn’t hurt you nearly as much if you go harder after out of state kids from solid high schools and good economic backgrounds. Those students have higher test scores and better retention rates across the board.

We also need to tighten admissions requirements into all but the most remedial degree programs we have. Improve the structure of pre-requisite programs to force marginal students to not walk straight into an impossible course load without the necessary background in the subjects. You already have higher ACT and GPA requirements to be admitted to BCOE and perhaps a few other colleges within the university. You already have pre-tests required for a lot of the difficult freshmen classes (like Chem I for all engineering students). Need to implement similar requirements for all degree programs, prioritized for those that have the most attrition.

 

[SouthFarmchicken]

YMMV with that.

As I’ve mentioned before, a close family member has a bachelor’s from State, went to med school at UMMC in Jackson, started post-doc medical training at Duke, and finished at Stanford.

But you’ve got to be *really* talented.

It’s not impossible. But my sister was number 2 in her class at UMC but because of her specialty (radiation oncology) she had to go to Vandy for one year before moving to the big leagues. Prestige matters.

 

[L4Dawg]

You can get a top class education at MSU if you want it. It's that word WANT that is the kicker.

 

[L4Dawg]

This concerns me some about my daughter. She’s a sophomore at State and wants to be a physical therapist. Post graduate PT School is very competitive and even though she has straight A’s, I’m afraid some schools would look at the undergrad university rankings when deciding who to admit and that would hurt her chances.

If she has straight As, does a good interview, and does well on whatever the PT school entrance exam is (I assume they have their version of the MCAT), she will be fine.

 

[ckDOG]

What's keeping us from being the best MS school? That should be attainable.

 

[DesotoCountyDawg]

What's keeping us from being the best MS school? That should be attainable.

I would like to know what the solution is. What does Keenum and the administration need to do to change it?

 

[Perd Hapley]

Honestly I’ve never found these rankings to be all that important. I’ve never interviewed a job candidate and said, “Well I know that we liked the guy who graduated from Arkansas, but have you SEEN their latest ranking?”

Its not important at the candidate level, once you get to the point of selecting an individual. But its hugely important at the screening level where you are choosing which schools as a company or firm that you are or are not interested in visiting for career fairs and things of that nature.

Vanderbilt, UF, UGA, and a few others nearby have companies and firms from across the country flocking to their campus twice a year to get in on the bidding for their graduates. MSU….not so much. We get the usual regional companies looking for engineers. Maybe some metro area firms from the NE or West Coast looking for a handful of Architecture grads. But thats the extent of it. Are several MSU students as good or better than several students from those other schools? Absolutely. But it doesn’t matter if they can’t get that first foot in the door.

 

[8dog]

I would like to know what the solution is. What does Keenum and the administration need to do to change it?

Send Edam cheese with a list of our accomplishments on the box to every admin in the country that votes on peer review. It’s 20% of the calc. We are 50 spots behind OM bc they always dominate us in perception.

As I say every year- espn doesn’t know the difference in state or OM but we expect the provost at Oregon State to tell the difference. We aren’t gonna move the needle with any other factor.

 

[Maroon Eagle]

It’s not impossible. But my sister was number 2 in her class at UMC but because of her specialty (radiation oncology) she had to go to Vandy for one year before moving to the big leagues. Prestige matters.

Exactly.

A lot of folks here poop on Prestige.

But Prestige is a gateway that you take if you can.

 

[Dawgg]

We are no longer the third worst Power 5 university in America. We are tied for last. WVU and Texas Tech moved up.

Now if we can root for the Pac-2 to absorb the Mountain West, we can retake our spot right there above New Mexico and UNLV.***

 

[Perd Hapley]

I would like to know what the solution is. What does Keenum and the administration need to do to change it?

Tighten enrollment requirements….with the expressed purpose of reducing enrollment to both increase the quality of the average student and also increase the university’s investment in every student. Already mentioned in other post how to do that, without violating anything in the Ayers laws.

 

[Duke Humphrey]

What's keeping us from being the best MS school? That should be attainable.

Stop being the school of choice for a majority of Mississippians and start recruiting out of state students.

We are the best MS school, just not in the view of US News and how they determine.

 

[Dawgs_4_life]

Released today. After we've re-entered the Croom era, I dont even have the desire to discuss. We are no longer the third worst Power 5 university in America. We are tied for last. WVU and Texas Tech moved up.

#18 Vanderbilt
#28 Florida
#32 UT Austin
#47 UGA
#47 TX A&M
#93 Auburn
#105 Tennessee
#124 Missouri
#124 Oklahoma
#124 South Car
#159 Kentucky
#163 Mississippi
#170 Alabama
#178 Arkansas
#185 LSU
#216 Miss St

Are we trying to suck at everything?

 

[Duke Humphrey]

Tighten enrollment requirements….with the expressed purpose of reducing enrollment to both increase the quality of the average student and also increase the university’s investment in every student. Already mentioned in other post how to do that, without violating anything in the Ayers laws.

So how do you make up the budget hole created by this? You propose a cut and increase in spending. State funding is down compared to where we were 20 years ago, whereas the state funds only make up to 15-20 percent of overall budget. Tuition is the vast majority of what funds the university, so if you cut enrollment you cut resources coming in.

 

[615dawg]

This discussion happens every year and the remedies are the same.

1. The Ayers admission standards that cause us to have to take anyone with a pulse are killing us, but Ole Miss has the same issue. We have to develop programs that are geared toward helping these students. We need a Department on Campus committed to counseling and tutoring First Time College Students.

2. We have to attract better faculty, and it's hard because of Mississippi's low pay and Starkville's terrible schools. Ole Miss has an incredible advantage here. Oxford schools are amongst the best in the state. If you are a faculty member with school needs, you are choosing Ole Miss over State, Auburn over State for land-grant type programs, etc.

3. Keenum needs to make a commitment to raising our academic profile. Yeah it's cool to have him involved with DC and the CFP, but this is hurting us and it seems like it is no concern. We were 106th and creeping on the top 100 under Zacharias.

 

[Maroon Eagle]

So how do you make up the budget hole created by this? You propose a cut and increase in spending. State funding is down compared to where we were 20 years ago, whereas the state funds only make up to 15-20 percent of overall budget. Tuition is the vast majority of what funds the university, so if you cut enrollment you cut resources coming in.

It depends where the enrollment is being cut.

See: https://mississippitoday.org/2021/11/04/act-mark-keenum-mississippi-state/

and…

See: https://mississippitoday.org/2021/11/04/act-mark-keenum-mississippi-state/

Keenum: Need and merit-based financial assistance for Mississippi students is essential for our state’s future

By Mark E. Keenum President, Mississippi State University

www.msstate.edu

 

[Trojanbulldog19]

Keenum sucks.

 

[Trojanbulldog19]

The problem with many ms universities is they hire too many of their own instead trying to diversify their pool and hiring the best qualified candidates

 

[OG Goat Holder]

Tighten enrollment requirements….with the expressed purpose of reducing enrollment to both increase the quality of the average student and also increase the university’s investment in every student. Already mentioned in other post how to do that, without violating anything in the Ayers laws.

Portera did this, and folks ran him out of town. He wanted to use the JUCOs, and reduce Starkville enrollment. Keenum came in and did the opposite, and it was praised. I don't personally know the correct answer.

Looks like Portera's way will eventually win, with the student-loan crisis and the enrollment cliff coming, and the overall lack of trust in the higher-ed system. And if I'm honest, Keenum's way may have increased the brain drain, as stupid people got degrees, and instead of working a job locally that maybe they should have (and gotten a degree at a JUCO or similar), they leave the state because they think they are entitled to an office job in Atlanta or Dallas.

But there's also no doubt that Keenum's way has led to an increased emphasis on Starkville, and State athletics. So who knows?

But I know this, all you "Keenum sucks" types weren't around for Lee and Foglesong. Keenum does NOT suck, in any way.

 

[Maroon Eagle]

The problem with many ms universities is they hire too many of their own instead trying to diversify their pool and hiring the best qualified candidates

Keenum is an interesting case.

His academic situation is one a lot of folks in the trenches of higher ed don’t like (too insular — bachelors, masters, doctorates all from MSU — higher ed folks would call that academic incest especially since they’re in the same field) but he knows the politics of the state front and back.

Portera did this, and folks ran him out of town. He wanted to use the JUCOs, and reduce Starkville enrollment. Keenum came in and did the opposite, and it was praised. I don't personally know the correct answer.

Looks like Portera's way will eventually win, with the student-loan crisis and the enrollment cliff coming, and the overall lack of trust in the higher-ed system. And if I'm honest, Keenum's way may have increased the brain drain, as stupid people got degrees, and instead of working a job locally that maybe they should have (and gotten a degree at a JUCO or similar), they leave the state because they think they are entitled to an office job in Atlanta or Dallas.

But there's also no doubt that Keenum's way has led to an increased emphasis on Starkville, and State athletics. So who knows?

But I know this, all you "Keenum sucks" types weren't around for Lee and Foglesong. Keenum does NOT suck, in any way.

Keenum’s point of view wins over Portera’s for this reason: More students mean more money.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

Keenum’s point of view wins over Portera’s for this reason: More students mean more money.

It's pretty clear to me that this is detrimental to the state, but good for MSU in the short term. But it all may be coming to a head. Our time in the sun may be over, we might be pulling a Gordon Gee soon. I don't think we are alone. Everybody is doing it, it's like the travel ball stuff.

Meanwhile Ole Miss has invested out of state. Is this good? Maybe. Some end up staying, but most end up leaving. However, this strategy worked for the state of SC. Both Clemson and South Carolina recruited out of state. It's also worked for AL.

Should we follow their lead. Can we succeed, even at their level? I'm not sure. This state is just so dysfunctional - but that's me giving a cop-out. But sometimes I do want to give up. But the reckoning is coming for higher ed. And it's closer than people think. We will survive, but will others? Milsaps, Belhaven, etc. Southern?