FC/OT: Infuriating story of US technology being 'given' to China by DOE and a dishonest scientist....

[Nitt1300]

Whores will do business with anybody, and "business ethics" went out the window a couple of generations ago

 

[Midnighter]

Manufacturing is not similar to marketing on the internet.

No, but an advantage to being first to market is. Sheesh.

 

[Midnighter]

I’ve been to China many times. Have spent collectively about 4 or 5 months there. I’m convinced that being a trade partner with China is going to destroy the us economy. I’m opposed to tarries, but anyone who takes new technology to China for manufacturing is basically giving China the design. It’s likely too late to change, but this needs to be something every American is aware of. China is a bigger threat to the US because of business than Russia today.

Wife worked in the IP office at the US Embassy there; let’s just say she kept busy.

 

[Nitt1300]

18 U.S. Code § 2381 - Treason​

Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

 

[blion72]

Whores will do business with anybody, and "business ethics" went out the window a couple of generations ago

I imagine most of us on this forum watched the China relationship evolve over several decades. I personally have worked in a global company with a couple decades spent outside the US including in Asia, but also lived and been part of an industrial business operating in the upper Midwest, so have seen the changes in places like Cleveland, Detroit, Chicago, etc.

I started really seeing impacts in the 1990's but when I mentioned it to most people, they would kind of shrug it off. Just a few observations:

1. When China opened up, it still maintained itself as a quasi-communist dictatorship. This allowed it to move more collectively and compete against western countries with more open and free economies. The US became a good target being the largest economy in the world vs Europe which is fragmented and much harder to penetrate. China therefore could play a long game and target to be #1, and play a game while the US did not even know there was a game being played.
2. The population of China is 3-4x the US and very much a factor. There are more people in China who can speak English than there are people in the US. This was a target for them early. Size matters kind of like a 1 Tech DT - it gives them an opportunity to dominate in labor intensive areas like manufacturing. Combine big with monolithic culture and dictatorship = competitive advantage.
3. In the late 1970's US universities our elite MBA programs (i.e. most CEO's and the mega consultants go to these programs) started to teach the concept of a company as a Lego kit supply chain, where each piece is optimized. Essentially, the company could be spread globally where each piece is optimized and then in the case of manufacturing assembled at some final point. Even that could be outside the US, and just export to the US consumer. This thinking quickly spread through the late 1970's and early 1980's
4. The Lego kit thinking from the "new CEO's" began to eclipse the traditional CEO's from the greatest generation (many who fought in WW2), and this new breed made many changes. So GM divested most of its parts businesses to create Delphi as an independent company, who then had to compete against other parts companies. Ford did same and created Visteon. These entities as independents struggled. The new CEO's at no time would see any obligation to help the US, as what matters is their firm's financial performance. This is capitalism, and nothing wrong with this, but if your competitor (China) can play game differently, they can use this against you.
5. The ultimate Lego kit CEO's become the Gordon Gecko's of the world. A lot of money made, but these moves usually hurt the US as a whole.
6. This accelerated in the 1990's and along with the Y2K software "fix" being handled heavily offshore (Chindia = China + India) further accelerated business toward that region. China began to refer to itself as the "world's factory".
7. A parallel event in NAFTA further weakened the US manufacturing capability, and worked the LEgo model further.
8. WTO was created and China learned to play that model.
9. China also learned how to "manage" its currency vs the US, and play the US import cost model. Given the US had very few barriers or tariffs to entry, the flow of Chinese made goods accelerated. From the late 1980's on the US trade deficit rapidly grew.
10. The US elected politicians actually started to become less of a factor, as the unelected regulators started to drive the reality. So places like the FTC, who might take some action re say unfair trade, stood by with few actions - unless an entire industry came forward. Essentially, it did not mater if we had Republicans or Democrats in office - the agency regulators had the dominant impact and provided no help.
11. By the late 1990's we started to see new thinking at conferences - the US will be the innovation or information economy and driven by services. Making things will be done elsewhere. Our IP would be the key and we knew how to innovate better than anyone - which worked of the incentive to get rich by inventors. This ASSUMED we could/would protect/enforce patents, copyright, trademarks and trade secrets. However, China learned how to copy and just misappropriate IP from inventors/creators. The US PTO, FTC and other agencies did NOT enforce US rights.
12. US consumers were benefiting with lower costs (i.e. Walmart was heavily Chinese made products), so that was no pressure there. The fact that US wages were stagnating did not get alot of play. This was essentially the beginning of a long run of low inflation as we externalized the US economy.
13. No President saw this as an issue, and you have to say that US voters did not see it as important on a large scale. By 2000, manufacturing had shrunk as a key part of the US economy, and a big part of the workforce were in services, and feeling insulated from the problem.
14. By 2000 we were seeing many service firms from the US going to China for jobs helping Chinese manufacturing. These people were very excited, but did not realize this was temporary. China started to build this skill locally, and so they do not need to come to the US for an engineering company to do work - they can get it locally. The market share of engineering jobs in China has increased steadily toward Chinese firms. Now the only jobs going to a US engineering firm are very unique skill sets. China will be taking those long run.
15. China sent their students to the US for higher ed, as their system was a bit behind, They wanted two things - find/take IP and figure out how to build their universities. Longer run, they will only be doing this to get IP - they will have their own schools and not need the US.
16. All these trends have created very negative impacts
    1. First we have had long running trade deficit
    2. Second we have had a long running fiscal deficit, so large US debt
    3. We are like a family with declining family income and large debt owed to the family enemy
17. Due to #16, we needed someone to fund our debt - so we went to China to fund our habit. Kind of like taking a loan from a thief that just robbed you.
18. China has been able to use its power to now invest around the world and has very significant power in places like South America and Africa.
19. They are making themselves a center to make and export all manners of green economy products - solar, wind, EV cars, etc. However, they are growing coal, nuclear and all manner of fossil fuels as they know that is more practical in the short term.
20. China has also used its power/funds to invest and grow its military. They now are eclipsing our navy and will soon have air power. They have had nuclear and missile capability. Given they can get most US IP, any military advantage is rapidly declining.
21. The leadership in the US from government, universities, media and large corporations do not see any of this as a problem, and also see the US as a "rich country" capable of taking care of most of the globe. China does not see themselves this way and has been playing the subtle attacker for over 30 years.
22. Most of our US leadership in these areas compared to their peers from say 50 years ago are much less patriotic, and even uncomfortable saying good things about the US. Most did not serve in the military and just see the world differently.
23. Not sure where this will take us.

 

[BobPSU92]

Which works out nicely for American politicians since by the time the **** hits the fan they're gone.

the problem is the voters - the idiots who keep putting the same aholes into office again and again

 

[PSU Chicago]

Just an absolute clusterf*ck of a story. The quick and dirty is a US government lab in Washington state develops an innovative and impressive battery technology and the lead developer applies for a license to manufacture and sell them. The license states the batteries must be 'substantially made' in the US and a certain amount should be sold there. The lead developer, Gary Yang (Chinese born American citizen), starts a company in America, hires employees, but soon runs out of investors. What does he do? Link up with a Chinese company and eventually transfers his license, and company, there. It seems like he failed to disclose the location of his license to DOE but they also did not seem too keen, or capable, to do a lot of oversight (he also eventually transfers the license to a company in the EU). Eventually, all this technology is being made by a company in China while US companies have been denied licenses to make them domestically. And now (this happened beginning in 2012 through 2021), China is the world leader in manufacturing this technology and likely will not stop despite having the license recently revoked. DOE is doing an internal investigation, but way too late for US companies to catch up IMO.

Infuriating.

The Chinese would have stolen the technology anyway .....

 

[Nohow]

If China has 3

I imagine most of us on this forum watched the China relationship evolve over several decades. I personally have worked in a global company with a couple decades spent outside the US including in Asia, but also lived and been part of an industrial business operating in the upper Midwest, so have seen the changes in places like Cleveland, Detroit, Chicago, etc.

I started really seeing impacts in the 1990's but when I mentioned it to most people, they would kind of shrug it off. Just a few observations:

1. When China opened up, it still maintained itself as a quasi-communist dictatorship. This allowed it to move more collectively and compete against western countries with more open and free economies. The US became a good target being the largest economy in the world vs Europe which is fragmented and much harder to penetrate. China therefore could play a long game and target to be #1, and play a game while the US did not even know there was a game being played.
2. The population of China is 3-4x the US and very much a factor. There are more people in China who can speak English than there are people in the US. This was a target for them early. Size matters kind of like a 1 Tech DT - it gives them an opportunity to dominate in labor intensive areas like manufacturing. Combine big with monolithic culture and dictatorship = competitive advantage.
3. In the late 1970's US universities our elite MBA programs (i.e. most CEO's and the mega consultants go to these programs) started to teach the concept of a company as a Lego kit supply chain, where each piece is optimized. Essentially, the company could be spread globally where each piece is optimized and then in the case of manufacturing assembled at some final point. Even that could be outside the US, and just export to the US consumer. This thinking quickly spread through the late 1970's and early 1980's
4. The Lego kit thinking from the "new CEO's" began to eclipse the traditional CEO's from the greatest generation (many who fought in WW2), and this new breed made many changes. So GM divested most of its parts businesses to create Delphi as an independent company, who then had to compete against other parts companies. Ford did same and created Visteon. These entities as independents struggled. The new CEO's at no time would see any obligation to help the US, as what matters is their firm's financial performance. This is capitalism, and nothing wrong with this, but if your competitor (China) can play game differently, they can use this against you.
5. The ultimate Lego kit CEO's become the Gordon Gecko's of the world. A lot of money made, but these moves usually hurt the US as a whole.
6. This accelerated in the 1990's and along with the Y2K software "fix" being handled heavily offshore (Chindia = China + India) further accelerated business toward that region. China began to refer to itself as the "world's factory".
7. A parallel event in NAFTA further weakened the US manufacturing capability, and worked the LEgo model further.
8. WTO was created and China learned to play that model.
9. China also learned how to "manage" its currency vs the US, and play the US import cost model. Given the US had very few barriers or tariffs to entry, the flow of Chinese made goods accelerated. From the late 1980's on the US trade deficit rapidly grew.
10. The US elected politicians actually started to become less of a factor, as the unelected regulators started to drive the reality. So places like the FTC, who might take some action re say unfair trade, stood by with few actions - unless an entire industry came forward. Essentially, it did not mater if we had Republicans or Democrats in office - the agency regulators had the dominant impact and provided no help.
11. By the late 1990's we started to see new thinking at conferences - the US will be the innovation or information economy and driven by services. Making things will be done elsewhere. Our IP would be the key and we knew how to innovate better than anyone - which worked of the incentive to get rich by inventors. This ASSUMED we could/would protect/enforce patents, copyright, trademarks and trade secrets. However, China learned how to copy and just misappropriate IP from inventors/creators. The US PTO, FTC and other agencies did NOT enforce US rights.
12. US consumers were benefiting with lower costs (i.e. Walmart was heavily Chinese made products), so that was no pressure there. The fact that US wages were stagnating did not get alot of play. This was essentially the beginning of a long run of low inflation as we externalized the US economy.
13. No President saw this as an issue, and you have to say that US voters did not see it as important on a large scale. By 2000, manufacturing had shrunk as a key part of the US economy, and a big part of the workforce were in services, and feeling insulated from the problem.
14. By 2000 we were seeing many service firms from the US going to China for jobs helping Chinese manufacturing. These people were very excited, but did not realize this was temporary. China started to build this skill locally, and so they do not need to come to the US for an engineering company to do work - they can get it locally. The market share of engineering jobs in China has increased steadily toward Chinese firms. Now the only jobs going to a US engineering firm are very unique skill sets. China will be taking those long run.
15. China sent their students to the US for higher ed, as their system was a bit behind, They wanted two things - find/take IP and figure out how to build their universities. Longer run, they will only be doing this to get IP - they will have their own schools and not need the US.
16. All these trends have created very negative impacts
    1. First we have had long running trade deficit
    2. Second we have had a long running fiscal deficit, so large US debt
    3. We are like a family with declining family income and large debt owed to the family enemy
17. Due to #16, we needed someone to fund our debt - so we went to China to fund our habit. Kind of like taking a loan from a thief that just robbed you.
18. China has been able to use its power to now invest around the world and has very significant power in places like South America and Africa.
19. They are making themselves a center to make and export all manners of green economy products - solar, wind, EV cars, etc. However, they are growing coal, nuclear and all manner of fossil fuels as they know that is more practical in the short term.
20. China has also used its power/funds to invest and grow its military. They now are eclipsing our navy and will soon have air power. They have had nuclear and missile capability. Given they can get most US IP, any military advantage is rapidly declining.
21. The leadership in the US from government, universities, media and large corporations do not see any of this as a problem, and also see the US as a "rich country" capable of taking care of most of the globe. China does not see themselves this way and has been playing the subtle attacker for over 30 years.
22. Most of our US leadership in these areas compared to their peers from say 50 years ago are much less patriotic, and even uncomfortable saying good things about the US. Most did not serve in the military and just see the world differently.
23. Not sure where this will take us.

Oh, get a grip. If their population is 3-4 times ours, perhaps it’s inevitable they will overtake us for world domination in commerce. (Of course, that doesn’t mean we should help them do that.) Many European countries have coped with our domination just fine.

 

[MacNit]

I imagine most of us on this forum watched the China relationship evolve over several decades. I personally have worked in a global company with a couple decades spent outside the US including in Asia, but also lived and been part of an industrial business operating in the upper Midwest, so have seen the changes in places like Cleveland, Detroit, Chicago, etc.

I started really seeing impacts in the 1990's but when I mentioned it to most people, they would kind of shrug it off. Just a few observations:

1. When China opened up, it still maintained itself as a quasi-communist dictatorship. This allowed it to move more collectively and compete against western countries with more open and free economies. The US became a good target being the largest economy in the world vs Europe which is fragmented and much harder to penetrate. China therefore could play a long game and target to be #1, and play a game while the US did not even know there was a game being played.
2. The population of China is 3-4x the US and very much a factor. There are more people in China who can speak English than there are people in the US. This was a target for them early. Size matters kind of like a 1 Tech DT - it gives them an opportunity to dominate in labor intensive areas like manufacturing. Combine big with monolithic culture and dictatorship = competitive advantage.
3. In the late 1970's US universities our elite MBA programs (i.e. most CEO's and the mega consultants go to these programs) started to teach the concept of a company as a Lego kit supply chain, where each piece is optimized. Essentially, the company could be spread globally where each piece is optimized and then in the case of manufacturing assembled at some final point. Even that could be outside the US, and just export to the US consumer. This thinking quickly spread through the late 1970's and early 1980's
4. The Lego kit thinking from the "new CEO's" began to eclipse the traditional CEO's from the greatest generation (many who fought in WW2), and this new breed made many changes. So GM divested most of its parts businesses to create Delphi as an independent company, who then had to compete against other parts companies. Ford did same and created Visteon. These entities as independents struggled. The new CEO's at no time would see any obligation to help the US, as what matters is their firm's financial performance. This is capitalism, and nothing wrong with this, but if your competitor (China) can play game differently, they can use this against you.
5. The ultimate Lego kit CEO's become the Gordon Gecko's of the world. A lot of money made, but these moves usually hurt the US as a whole.
6. This accelerated in the 1990's and along with the Y2K software "fix" being handled heavily offshore (Chindia = China + India) further accelerated business toward that region. China began to refer to itself as the "world's factory".
7. A parallel event in NAFTA further weakened the US manufacturing capability, and worked the LEgo model further.
8. WTO was created and China learned to play that model.
9. China also learned how to "manage" its currency vs the US, and play the US import cost model. Given the US had very few barriers or tariffs to entry, the flow of Chinese made goods accelerated. From the late 1980's on the US trade deficit rapidly grew.
10. The US elected politicians actually started to become less of a factor, as the unelected regulators started to drive the reality. So places like the FTC, who might take some action re say unfair trade, stood by with few actions - unless an entire industry came forward. Essentially, it did not mater if we had Republicans or Democrats in office - the agency regulators had the dominant impact and provided no help.
11. By the late 1990's we started to see new thinking at conferences - the US will be the innovation or information economy and driven by services. Making things will be done elsewhere. Our IP would be the key and we knew how to innovate better than anyone - which worked of the incentive to get rich by inventors. This ASSUMED we could/would protect/enforce patents, copyright, trademarks and trade secrets. However, China learned how to copy and just misappropriate IP from inventors/creators. The US PTO, FTC and other agencies did NOT enforce US rights.
12. US consumers were benefiting with lower costs (i.e. Walmart was heavily Chinese made products), so that was no pressure there. The fact that US wages were stagnating did not get alot of play. This was essentially the beginning of a long run of low inflation as we externalized the US economy.
13. No President saw this as an issue, and you have to say that US voters did not see it as important on a large scale. By 2000, manufacturing had shrunk as a key part of the US economy, and a big part of the workforce were in services, and feeling insulated from the problem.
14. By 2000 we were seeing many service firms from the US going to China for jobs helping Chinese manufacturing. These people were very excited, but did not realize this was temporary. China started to build this skill locally, and so they do not need to come to the US for an engineering company to do work - they can get it locally. The market share of engineering jobs in China has increased steadily toward Chinese firms. Now the only jobs going to a US engineering firm are very unique skill sets. China will be taking those long run.
15. China sent their students to the US for higher ed, as their system was a bit behind, They wanted two things - find/take IP and figure out how to build their universities. Longer run, they will only be doing this to get IP - they will have their own schools and not need the US.
16. All these trends have created very negative impacts
    1. First we have had long running trade deficit
    2. Second we have had a long running fiscal deficit, so large US debt
    3. We are like a family with declining family income and large debt owed to the family enemy
17. Due to #16, we needed someone to fund our debt - so we went to China to fund our habit. Kind of like taking a loan from a thief that just robbed you.
18. China has been able to use its power to now invest around the world and has very significant power in places like South America and Africa.
19. They are making themselves a center to make and export all manners of green economy products - solar, wind, EV cars, etc. However, they are growing coal, nuclear and all manner of fossil fuels as they know that is more practical in the short term.
20. China has also used its power/funds to invest and grow its military. They now are eclipsing our navy and will soon have air power. They have had nuclear and missile capability. Given they can get most US IP, any military advantage is rapidly declining.
21. The leadership in the US from government, universities, media and large corporations do not see any of this as a problem, and also see the US as a "rich country" capable of taking care of most of the globe. China does not see themselves this way and has been playing the subtle attacker for over 30 years.
22. Most of our US leadership in these areas compared to their peers from say 50 years ago are much less patriotic, and even uncomfortable saying good things about the US. Most did not serve in the military and just see the world differently.
23. Not sure where this will take us.

These are terrific observations blion72. I have had the privilege of working in a global business where the USA was and is still dominant.

I must say my thinking has come full circle and within 10 years went from one where we partnered and helped the Chinese - much as you describe above and now to one where they are our biggest threat.

It is the defining issue of the current generation. For my kids, I fear we will not be up to the challenge. I also fear that the gravity of the situation is not fully appreciated (~ 1930s Britain vs Germany) and may not be until it is too late. It’s not about watching funny videos on Tik-Tok.

 

[MacNit]

If China has 3

Oh, get a grip. If their population is 3-4 times ours, perhaps it’s inevitable they will overtake us for world domination in commerce. (Of course, that doesn’t mean we should help them do that.) Many European countries have coped with our domination just fine.

Get a grip? Blion72 outlined some very level-headed analysis. Nothing is inevitable unless we allow it. Cope with it? Sounds easy until you find out what that means (ask the Ugyers, Hong Kong, non-ethnic Han Chinese…up next is Taiwan).

China vs USA (Western Civilization) is not a moral equivalency.