FC/OT: John Oliver lays out the student loan/debt crisis in America…

[Midnighter]

…on Last Week Tonight. Some of this I knew, other things I haven’t seen before (such as loan administration companies not taking full payment from government workers/military so the payments don’t count towards debt forgiveness after 10 years of public service). Also a lot of talk about how state funding has dried up post-2008 and colleges are spending more than ever on student luxuries to compete for students (they show LSU’s lazy river as an example). A lot of this is infuriating but worth the watch…

 

[Bison13]

As an employee of public education, we have to accept a large component of the blame as well. As I go through different schools, I can see the grade inflation and the constant rhetoric of every kid must go to college and do what they love. Problem is that there’s never any kind of risk reward analysis shown to these kids and we don’t push trades or other scenarios that actually are better for some of these kids in the long run. We’re sending too many kids that can’t handle the academics off to college to where they ultimately drop out or we send them to schools where they are taking out loans each year for more than what their starting average salary is when they graduate.

To the governors point about needing to have a budget, Louisiana doesn’t pay their teachers enough so he should still find a way to get them more money but in places like Baltimore, where I work, we have so many people working in the offices that if they just took a quarter of them away, we would still function perfectly fine and have millions of dollars to get extra special ed teachers, reading or math specialists or mental health people in our buildings. If we could do that, then maybe some of these kids that we are sending to college would actually be prepared when they get there.

 

[Connorpozlee]

As an employee of public education, we have to accept a large component of the blame as well. As I go through different schools, I can see the grade inflation and the constant rhetoric of every kid must go to college and do what they love. Problem is that there’s never any kind of risk reward analysis shown to these kids and we don’t push trades or other scenarios that actually are better for some of these kids in the long run. We’re sending too many kids that can’t handle the academics off to college to where they ultimately drop out or we send them to schools where they are taking out loans each year for more than what they’re starting average salary is when they graduate.

To the governors point about needing to have a budget, Louisiana doesn’t pay their teachers enough so he should still find a way to get them more money but in places like Baltimore, where I work, we have so many people working in the offices that if they just took a quarter of them away, we would still function perfectly fine and have millions of dollars to get extra special ed teachers, reading or math specialists or mental health people in our buildings. If we could do that, then maybe some of these kids that we are sending to college would actually be prepared when they get there.

I sat at a district meeting two weeks ago where one of the chief administrators (whom I like and have a lot of respect for) stood in front of our group and said several were going to be cut next year due to the budget. Meanwhile five other people from the same office sat there as she spoke to use. There are others that now operate out of that same department as well. When I started, that department was one person and her secretary and it absolutely functioned in a much more efficient and effective way. Cutting district office staff by a quarter would be a nice start but not even close to what is needed.

 

[laKavosiey-st lion]

Problem is that there’s never any kind of risk reward analysis shown to these kids

this exactly. We told our kids we’d be happy to pay for vocation training but not 4 years of self discovery and clove cigs.
they are aerospace and finance and were employed at their senior fall semester career fair. I’m mad at States football team but I fuckking love their career fair

 

[Bison13]

I sat at a district meeting two weeks ago where one of the chief administrators (whom I like and have a lot of respect for) stood in front of our group and said several were going to be cut next year due to the budget. Meanwhile five other people from the same office sat there as she spoke to use. There are others that now operate out of that same department as well. When I started, that department was one person and her secretary and it absolutely functioned in a much more efficient and effective way. Cutting district office staff by a quarter would be a nice start but not even close to what is needed.

You are correct with the 1/4 not being close to what’s needed, I was just trying to be nice. Hopefully you are not one of the ones on the chopping block.
Similarly, I work as a resource teacher and mentor for high school math. One of my coworkers is not even certified for high school math, he’s only certified through middle school. I end up doing part of his job for him because he’s never taught algebra 2 and therefore doesn’t know the curriculum. As you would expect, there are quite a few people who have jobs like that at central office. seems that a principal that he worked for eventually became the head of the curriculum department and gave him a job, even though he’s not qualified for it. That seems to be how our human resources department works as well. It takes them six weeks to process paperwork for hires and then we end up losing out on that hire because somebody’s brother or sister or kid is working at HR making 80 K a year, but not doing any work and our potential employee finds something somewhere else first.

 

[Keyser Soze 16802]

 

[DaytonRickster]

As an employee of public education, we have to accept a large component of the blame as well. As I go through different schools, I can see the grade inflation and the constant rhetoric of every kid must go to college and do what they love. Problem is that there’s never any kind of risk reward analysis shown to these kids and we don’t push trades or other scenarios that actually are better for some of these kids in the long run. We’re sending too many kids that can’t handle the academics off to college to where they ultimately drop out or we send them to schools where they are taking out loans each year for more than what they’re starting average salary is when they graduate.

To the governors point about needing to have a budget, Louisiana doesn’t pay their teachers enough so he should still find a way to get them more money but in places like Baltimore, where I work, we have so many people working in the offices that if they just took a quarter of them away, we would still function perfectly fine and have millions of dollars to get extra special ed teachers, reading or math specialists or mental health people in our buildings. If we could do that, then maybe some of these kids that we are sending to college would actually be prepared when they get there.

Thank for an honest balanced assessment from someone right in the middle of the action.

 

[LionJim]

Thank for an honest balanced assessment from someone right in the middle of the action.

100%.

 

[pamdlion]

I thought for most of my life that education was some noble institution. I was wrong…it is just another big industry. A big industry that is poorly managed.

 

[laKavosiey-st lion]

I thought for most of my life that education was some noble institution. I was wrong…it is just another big industry. A big industry that is poorly managed.

Who’s managing it? (I won’t say cause I had a great weekend and am feeling awesome)
and I too am part of the education machine

 

[pamdlion]

Who’s managing it? (I won’t say cause I had a great weekend and am feeling awesome)
and I too am part of the education machine

I won’t say either because I also had a great weekend and am feeling awesome…but follow the money.

 

[bdgan]

…on Last Week Tonight. Some of this I knew, other things I haven’t seen before (such as loan administration companies not taking full payment from government workers/military so the payments don’t count towards debt forgiveness after 10 years of public service). Also a lot of talk about how state funding has dried up post-2008 and colleges are spending more than ever on student luxuries to compete for students (they show LSU’s lazy river as an example). A lot of this is infuriating but worth the watch…

I find it difficult to blame universities because they're selling something people are willing to pay for (lazy rivers and anthropology courses included). I blame students/parents for making irresponsible decisions and the government for making their decisions easy by offering large loans.

 

[bdgan]

As an employee of public education, we have to accept a large component of the blame as well. As I go through different schools, I can see the grade inflation and the constant rhetoric of every kid must go to college and do what they love. Problem is that there’s never any kind of risk reward analysis shown to these kids and we don’t push trades or other scenarios that actually are better for some of these kids in the long run. We’re sending too many kids that can’t handle the academics off to college to where they ultimately drop out or we send them to schools where they are taking out loans each year for more than what their starting average salary is when they graduate.

To the governors point about needing to have a budget, Louisiana doesn’t pay their teachers enough so he should still find a way to get them more money but in places like Baltimore, where I work, we have so many people working in the offices that if they just took a quarter of them away, we would still function perfectly fine and have millions of dollars to get extra special ed teachers, reading or math specialists or mental health people in our buildings. If we could do that, then maybe some of these kids that we are sending to college would actually be prepared when they get there.

High schools should teach financial planning. I have nothing against senior year British Literature but IMO basic financial management is far more important.

 

[laKavosiey-st lion]

Last summer, my first summer in my new hood, I’m chatting with my new bro on the golf course. His son1 is at Rutgers pursuing a vocation Rutgers is famous for. So I ask about his son 2. He’s not going to college, so me as an electrician long ago, ask him if he’s going to trade school. NOPE, he’s going to be an influencer. My new bro said he’s going to live in his basement for 20 years. Which isn’t a terrible plan, jokes on us (800k house, in ground pool, pro bb court out back, nice Subaru hs ride)

 

[Bison13]

High schools should teach financial planning. I have nothing against senior year British Literature but IMO basic financial management is far more important.

We do but just like anything else the kids only get out of it what they put into it. I think it’s a great class. We just finished the tax unit where every kid had to fill out a 1040.

 

[MtNittany]

Make the University co-sign the loan. They're the biggest beneficiary of this whole scam because they have nothing to lose. Every loan is probably 1/100th of the hiring of a new administrator.

A friend's kid was pressured to sign for a loan at Penn College. Luckily he thought better of it, left town, and went to a more affordable trade school where he could work, pay rent, and tuition. Which is sort of how trade schools used to work (until Penn State got involved, of course).

 

[BiochemPSU]

We do but just like anything else the kids only get out of it what they put into it. I think it’s a great class. We just finished the tax unit where every kid had to fill out a 1040.

Agreed. As if anyone would pay attention. Most of the knuckleheads I went to school with would sleep right through it and then go out and finance a giant pickup for 100k. somehow that would still be the schools fault for not making them take anti-moron classes. Same folks took drivers ed too, prevented exactly zero tickets and accidents.

I like the trades and college isn’t necessary for everyone. But this idea that life is better without the degree is hogwash. The head of An investment group I am in constantly talks about creating passive income and being an entrepreneur. He listed a job opening for one his companies last week. First requirement was a four year degree. As if he would trust his own company’s financial health to some good old fashioned street smarts and “entrepreneurship.”
Education is the ticket to ride, and the ticket isn’t free. Yeah, the schools took advantage of the situation. But Rather than us, as a society, offer help to those who want to do better and take on the loans and invest in themselves, we pull the ladder up in front of them and make it harder on them.

 

[bdgan]

Make the University co-sign the loan. They're the biggest beneficiary of this whole scam because they have nothing to lose. Every loan is probably 1/100th of the hiring of a new administrator.

A friend's kid was pressured to sign for a loan at Penn College. Luckily he thought better of it, left town, and went to a more affordable trade school where he could work, pay rent, and tuition. Which is sort of how trade schools used to work (until Penn State got involved, of course).

Private banks might make loans to kids pursuing a STEM education. Very few would make substantial loans to kids pursuing a degree in theater. The government's involvement promotes the problem.

 

[Bison13]

Agreed. As if anyone would pay attention. Most of the knuckleheads I went to school with would sleep right through it and then go out and finance a giant pickup for 100k. somehow that would still be the schools fault for not making them take anti-moron classes. Same folks took drivers ed too, prevented exactly zero tickets and accidents.

I like the trades and college isn’t necessary for everyone. But this idea that life is better without the degree is hogwash. The head of An investment group I am in constantly talks about creating passive income and being an entrepreneur. He listed a job opening for one his companies last week. First requirement was a four year degree. As if he would trust his own company’s financial health to some good old fashioned street smarts and “entrepreneurship.”
Education is the ticket to ride, and the ticket isn’t free. Yeah, the schools took advantage of the situation. But Rather than us, as a society, offer help to those who want to do better and take on the loans and invest in themselves, we pull the ladder up in front of them and make it harder on them.

Just like I said with the financial literacy class, life is what you make of it. I don’t think everyone needs college and I don’t necessarily think college is the ticket to ride as you say. And all depends on what path they take. The high school where my kids will attend has a very solid PTA and boosters association. The top two donors to both of those groups did not have a college education. One is a contractor and the other an HVAC company owner. Those might be the exceptions, but either way kids need to be told about all the possible options and the risk award analysis for each, that’s my big complaint is that we don’t tell kids preferred degree path lead them to a job that only makes 50 K a year but they’re taking out over 100 grand to get it.

 

[Connorpozlee]

You are correct with the 1/4 not being close to what’s needed, I was just trying to be nice. Hopefully you are not one of the ones on the chopping block.
Similarly, I work as a resource teacher and mentor for high school math. One of my coworkers is not even certified for high school math, he’s only certified through middle school. I end up doing part of his job for him because he’s never taught algebra 2 and therefore doesn’t know the curriculum. As you would expect, there are quite a few people who have jobs like that at central office. seems that a principal that he worked for eventually became the head of the curriculum department and gave him a job, even though he’s not qualified for it. That seems to be how our human resources department works as well. It takes them six weeks to process paperwork for hires and then we end up losing out on that hire because somebody’s brother or sister or kid is working at HR making 80 K a year, but not doing any work and our potential employee finds something somewhere else first.

I’m not at risk because I have tenure but it is crazy to watch district administration offices get bloated while we are tying to scrap together enough people to fill classrooms day to day.

 

[MtNittany]

The government's involvement promotes the problem.

The University's involvement increases the cost (especially for those families who have actually saved since the student's birth for their tuition).

Who wouldn't love a racket where you just name your price and it gets paid. I'd have loved that battling Dade, Broward, and Palm Beach County bid processes over the years. Would have made things pretty easy.

Funny - as bad as PSU tuition is, Bucknell tuition is nearly a criminal act.

 

[MtNittany]

FL does a lot of things better. Like Juno Beach.

This too. Their Florida Prepaid plan is 35 years old now and going strong.


The FL Legislators have to hold the U's to stop escalating costs that can't meet the obligations of the Prepaid Plan. I don't know of a local friend who had a kid go to UF, FSU, UCF, many others - that didn't use the Prepaid Plan from birth. It's just the responsible thing for people to do down here.

 

[s1uggo72]

…on Last Week Tonight. Some of this I knew, other things I haven’t seen before (such as loan administration companies not taking full payment from government workers/military so the payments don’t count towards debt forgiveness after 10 years of public service). Also a lot of talk about how state funding has dried up post-2008 and colleges are spending more than ever on student luxuries to compete for students (they show LSU’s lazy river as an example). A lot of this is infuriating but worth the watch…

Classic!!

 

[TheBigUglies]

Agreed. As if anyone would pay attention. Most of the knuckleheads I went to school with would sleep right through it and then go out and finance a giant pickup for 100k. somehow that would still be the schools fault for not making them take anti-moron classes. Same folks took drivers ed too, prevented exactly zero tickets and accidents.

I like the trades and college isn’t necessary for everyone. But this idea that life is better without the degree is hogwash. The head of An investment group I am in constantly talks about creating passive income and being an entrepreneur. He listed a job opening for one his companies last week. First requirement was a four year degree. As if he would trust his own company’s financial health to some good old fashioned street smarts and “entrepreneurship.”
Education is the ticket to ride, and the ticket isn’t free. Yeah, the schools took advantage of the situation. But Rather than us, as a society, offer help to those who want to do better and take on the loans and invest in themselves, we pull the ladder up in front of them and make it harder on them.

There should be anti-moron classes for everyone, even adults continuing ed to keep their drivers licenses and buy booze!! Instead of just showing driver's license they need to show the card they passed their anit-moron class as well!!

 

[BiochemPSU]

FL does a lot of things better. Like Juno Beach.

This too. Their Florida Prepaid plan is 35 years old now and going strong.

View attachment 546180
The FL Legislators have to hold the U's to stop escalating costs that can't meet the obligations of the Prepaid Plan. I don't know of a local friend who had a kid go to UF, FSU, UCF, many others - that didn't use the Prepaid Plan from birth. It's just the responsible thing for people to do down here.

The pre-paid is great, however it assumes that your family has the means to pay for it. Some people don't come from families that can do it and get hit with increased prices and the need for loans when it is time to start classes. That's called paying the poor tax. Our better off friends prefer the 529 plans because that leaves the door open to make money while yours is locked up in the prepaid plan not gaining anything. However, for everyone else who can afford it (myself included) the pre-paid is a good bargain.

 

[MtNittany]

The pre-paid is great, however it assumes that your family has the means to pay for it. Some people don't come from families that can do it and get hit with increased prices and the need for loans when it is time to start classes. That's called paying the poor tax. Our better off friends prefer the 529 plans because that leaves the door open to make money while yours is locked up in the prepaid plan not gaining anything. However, for everyone else who can afford it (myself included) the pre-paid is a good bargain.

The pre-paid is great, however it assumes that your family has the means to pay for it. Some people don't come from families that can do it and get hit with increased prices and the need for loans when it is time to start classes. That's called paying the poor tax. Our better off friends prefer the 529 plans because that leaves the door open to make money while yours is locked up in the prepaid plan not gaining anything. However, for everyone else who can afford it (myself included) the pre-paid is a good bargain.

What...no comment on how great Juno Beach is?

Not every kid needs to go to college. We all know this. I think we're getting closer to a corporate and public realization of that fact.

I am one of millions that has a pretty hard degree he never used. At all. If not for the friends and experiences, I would consider my PSU education the biggest waste of time and money in my lifetime.

 

[Midnighter]

Okay, so all this noted, what do you do? Teaching someone risk/reward or financial literacy probably doesn’t preclude them from going to college to make a better life for himself. Maybe you have fewer liberal arts majors or send more kids to trade school, but most will still go to college. Should college cost $50,000 - $80,000 a year? Even if so, there has to be a better, fairer way to fund them. Seems like crazy interest and administrative loan mismanagement are two of the bigger issues. I like the idea that schools should be on the hook for some of the loans. I don’t like the idea that loans aren’t covered by bankruptcy but literally every other kind of debt is.

I want Dean @laKavosiey-st lion to tell me his plan.

 

[bdgan]

The University's involvement increases the cost (especially for those families who have actually saved since the student's birth for their tuition).

Who wouldn't love a racket where you just name your price and it gets paid. I'd have loved that battling Dade, Broward, and Palm Beach County bid processes over the years. Would have made things pretty easy.

Funny - as bad as PSU tuition is, Bucknell tuition is nearly a criminal act.

But people are willing to pay. You can commute to a community for 2 years for almost nothing after tax credits. That's all you need to get a $60k job if you choose the right field. You'll still have to pay for the remaining 2 years to get a bachelor's degree but it should be manageable if you go to a state school.

I'm amazed how many people borrow 6 figures to attend a private college and graduate with a psychology degree.

 

[LBUfanatic]

As an employee of public education, we have to accept a large component of the blame as well. As I go through different schools, I can see the grade inflation and the constant rhetoric of every kid must go to college and do what they love. Problem is that there’s never any kind of risk reward analysis shown to these kids and we don’t push trades or other scenarios that actually are better for some of these kids in the long run. We’re sending too many kids that can’t handle the academics off to college to where they ultimately drop out or we send them to schools where they are taking out loans each year for more than what their starting average salary is when they graduate.

To the governors point about needing to have a budget, Louisiana doesn’t pay their teachers enough so he should still find a way to get them more money but in places like Baltimore, where I work, we have so many people working in the offices that if they just took a quarter of them away, we would still function perfectly fine and have millions of dollars to get extra special ed teachers, reading or math specialists or mental health people in our buildings. If we could do that, then maybe some of these kids that we are sending to college would actually be prepared when they get there.

Thank you for your honesty. I believe we are finally starting to turn the corner with regard to the trades and we are no longer demonizing trade schools. I also believe we need to take a good, hard look at the majors offered across post-secondary institutions and stop fooling ourselves that there are quite a few that don’t require 4 year degrees.

 

[Midnighter]

But people are willing to pay. You can commute to a community for 2 years for almost nothing after tax credits. That's all you need to get a $60k job if you choose the right field. You'll still have to pay for the remaining 2 years to get a bachelor's degree but it should be manageable if you go to a state school.

I'm amazed how many people borrow 6 figures to attend a private college and graduate with a psychology degree.

I think you would be surprised at the average debt for private college graduates compared to public university graduates. Privates are far more generous with scholarships especially to low income students. Think of this - Swarthmore has an endowment of about $1bn. They have about 1,625 students. Penn State’s endowment is 4x bigger but they have 88,000 students. I think there is some misguided fantasy that everyone with student loan debt is an unemployed liberal arts major. They are far more likely to be business majors which makes up about 20% of all bachelor degrees. You could add up the number of visual and performing arts, psychology, health, and education majors and still wouldn’t produce as many business school graduates.

 

[PSU_Lions_84]

My biggest complaint about "debt forgiveness" (ain't no such thing - lenders who don't get paid will charge us higher interest rates and fees for car/home/etc. loans) is that there is no differentiation between taking on debt for tuition/books/room and board/etc. vs. a "student" loan for lavish fall/spring break outings, new cars, etc.

I can hear the objections to my comment already: "Being in college is hard work. Spring break at _______ resort helps alleviate the stress of taking exams and all. I need a new car to get to/from home to hang out with all my HS friends. Etc." Really? I'm willing to bet that for 97.638% of working people their job (esp. an entry-level position) is more stressful than college was. As the old saying goes, "You think your professors were tough? Wait until you work for a boss who has no tenure to protect her and who has deliverable deadlines to meet."

 

[Midnighter]

My biggest complaint about "debt forgiveness" (ain't no such thing - lenders who don't get paid will charge us higher interest rates and fees for car/home/etc. loans) is that there is no differentiation between taking on debt for tuition/books/room and board/etc. vs. a "student" loan for lavish fall/spring break outings, new cars, etc.

I can hear the objections to my comment already: "Being in college is hard work. Spring break at _______ resort helps alleviate the stress of taking exams and all. I need a new car to get to/from home to hang out with all my HS friends. Etc." Really? I'm willing to bet that for 97.638% of working people their job (esp. an entry-level position) is more stressful than college was. As the old saying goes, "You think your professors were tough? Wait until you work for a boss who has no tenure to protect her and who has deliverable deadlines to meet."

I didn’t go anywhere but home for Spring Break. I couldn’t afford it. I did get a refund after paying tuition but it went to pay rent on my apartment. I joined the Army to pay off my loans which only totaled about 25,000 (c/o 97). I just doubt there are a lot of kids using student loan money for Spring Break.

 

[PSUFTG2]

I think you would be surprised at the average debt for private college graduates compared to public university graduates. Privates are far more generous with scholarships especially to low income students. Think of this - Swarthmore has an endowment of about $1bn. They have about 1,625 students. Penn State’s endowment is 4x bigger but they have 88,000 students. I think there is some misguided fantasy that everyone with student loan debt is an unemployed liberal arts major. They are far more likely to be business majors which makes up about 20% of all bachelor degrees. You could add up the number of visual and performing arts, psychology, health, and education majors and still wouldn’t produce as many business school graduates.

Just a FWIW:
Not sure about nationwide figures for numbers of graduates, but at PSU:

Both the Liberal Arts College and the Business College have about the same number of graduates (about 17% of the total degrees come from each college).
As you mentioned Education as well.... yes, very slim part of the deal at PSU - about 3%. I expect the number nationwide is relatively smaller as well (just because it creates pretty much a single career path, as opposed to a whole slew of potential career paths included in the other colleges - much like the Nursing college).

 

[Mile High Lion]

My biggest complaint about "debt forgiveness" (ain't no such thing - lenders who don't get paid will charge us higher interest rates and fees for car/home/etc. loans) is that there is no differentiation between taking on debt for tuition/books/room and board/etc. vs. a "student" loan for lavish fall/spring break outings, new cars, etc.

I can hear the objections to my comment already: "Being in college is hard work. Spring break at _______ resort helps alleviate the stress of taking exams and all. I need a new car to get to/from home to hang out with all my HS friends. Etc." Really? I'm willing to bet that for 97.638% of working people their job (esp. an entry-level position) is more stressful than college was. As the old saying goes, "You think your professors were tough? Wait until you work for a boss who has no tenure to protect her and who has deliverable deadlines to meet."

Ooh, I read your comment and had to respond in agreement. A friend of mine has two daughters who went to college and are complaining about their student loans and how hard they are to pay back. But I remember when they were in school there was the trip to Cancun every spring break. There was always a need for a new dress or some other expense for their sorority life. Then there was trip to Greece one of them gave to themselves as a graduation gift. Sorry kid, I'm not interested in paying for your trip to Greece. No sympathy whatsoever.

It comes down to learning to be an adult and take responsibility for your life. As far as I'm concerned college failed you or maybe you failed college and should hand back your diploma.

 

[PSUSignore]

High schools should teach financial planning. I have nothing against senior year British Literature but IMO basic financial management is far more important.

They do, at least some of them. Mine absolutely did. The problem is that many high school aged kids don't give a crap about the topic until further into adulthood, after it's too late. I graduated high school with a firm understanding of basic household finances, compounding interest, simple investing principles, balancing budgets, taxes and tax advantaged accounts, loan amortization and interest, etc. I suspect a number of the young adults that share your opinion had opportunities to learn this stuff and it just wasn't a priority in their lives at the time. There is only so much you can do to protect people from themselves.

The colleges and their crazy tuition hikes share some of the blame, especially public schools who's goal should not be tuition revenue but educating their constituents. I once read somewhere that school loans can't be eliminated when one files bankruptcy, and that's a contributing factor in tuition hikes. The schools will get paid eventually, no matter how dire a situation the borrower is in. I don't know if that's true but if so, I could see that being a factor for sure.

 

[PSU_Lions_84]

I didn’t go anywhere but home for Spring Break. I couldn’t afford it. I did get a refund after paying tuition but it went to pay rent on my apartment. I joined the Army to pay off my loans which only totaled about 25,000 (c/o 97). I just doubt there are a lot of kids using student loan money for Spring Break.

I did four years in Army SF before college. Had the old (very old?) GI Bill. Also picked up a wife while in North Carolina. She eventually got a job which gave me a tuition break - that kicked in late in my third year. Worked in the PS VA center (shout-out to Brian Clark!) on work-study. Breaks usually involved driving to/from North Carolina to visit the in-laws - good times!!

Sounds like you have as much evidence for loans not being used for spring break as I do for them doing so, so I think we can agree to disagree on that point.

Thank you for your service, brother/sister. (Sorry I don't know which - no offense intended.) Where was your permanent duty station?

 

[PSU_Lions_84]

Ooh, I read your comment and had to respond in agreement. A friend of mine has two daughters who went to college and are complaining about their student loans and how hard they are to pay back. But I remember when they were in school there was the trip to Cancun every spring break. There was always a need for a new dress or some other expense for their sorority life. Then there was trip to Greece one of them gave to themselves as a graduation gift. Sorry kid, I'm not interested in paying for your trip to Greece. No sympathy whatsoever.

It comes down to learning to be an adult and take responsibility for your life. As far as I'm concerned college failed you or maybe you failed college and should hand back your diploma.

I admit my criticism re using loans for non-school expenses is anecdotal - listening to fellow students when I was at State WAY back in the early 80's, listening to younger relatives and their friends, etc. But, after 40 years in finance and having seen financial misuse by so-called adults (Why DO people risk a six-figure income by attempting to cheat on their expense reports?!?!), I think my charge of loan misuse is accurate in a fair number of cases.

And we haven't even touched on the fairness of having trade school/blue collar workers absorbing debt "forgiveness."

 

[BiochemPSU]

Okay, so all this noted, what do you do? Teaching someone risk/reward or financial literacy probably doesn’t preclude them from going to college to make a better life for himself. Maybe you have fewer liberal arts majors or send more kids to trade school, but most will still go to college. Should college cost $50,000 - $80,000 a year? Even if so, there has to be a better, fairer way to fund them. Seems like crazy interest and administrative loan mismanagement are two of the bigger issues. I like the idea that schools should be on the hook for some of the loans. I don’t like the idea that loans aren’t covered by bankruptcy but literally every other kind of debt is.

I want Dean @laKavosiey-st lion to tell me his plan.

Free community college.
Allow those who take out loans to be able to refinance them to lower rates.
Permit a certain percentage or an amount of the loan to be dischargeable in bankruptcy.
Certain majors have pre-established set costs: engineer degrees cost more than sociology, for example.
Give discounts or cheaper tuition for students who go year round and finish in three years or less instead of four.
No interest accumulation on principle while in school.
Higher tax breaks for those who pay the loans back.

What...no comment on how great Juno Beach is?

Not every kid needs to go to college. We all know this. I think we're getting closer to a corporate and public realization of that fact.

I am one of millions that has a pretty hard degree he never used. At all. If not for the friends and experiences, I would consider my PSU education the biggest waste of time and money in my lifetime.

I don't care for PGA boulevard traffic (jk), but otherwise great area.

Florida is phasing out public schools grades K-12. Desantis and co. have just about killed it. Soon it will only be for the really poor kids as a form of babysitting, unless you live in a very well off neighborhood with a great public school where the housing/rent prices pretty much keep everyone else locked out of the school. Pretty soon all of the money I saved on college pre-paid will go right to the K-12 private schools. Instead of going into debt for college, go into debt for primary education, deny yourself and the kids anything fun in life for 13 years plus, hope you/spouse/kids don't get detrimentally sick/laid off, and delay your retirement for several decades for private K-12 education. Smoke and mirrors designed to raid your pocket, disguised as "choice."

I don't disagree that what you learn in each individual major/class isn't worth it, but that's why I pointed out my buddy who says things that sound like don't go to college, but then trusts his own business/money to college educated folks. Same goes with surgeons, accountants, lawyers, architects, mechanics, cooks, etc. No one says let me go to the least education person here. I know we all poke fun at majors we deem unworthy, but the point of college is to produce an educated person, not a job candidate.

My biggest complaint about "debt forgiveness" (ain't no such thing - lenders who don't get paid will charge us higher interest rates and fees for car/home/etc. loans) is that there is no differentiation between taking on debt for tuition/books/room and board/etc. vs. a "student" loan for lavish fall/spring break outings, new cars, etc.

I can hear the objections to my comment already: "Being in college is hard work. Spring break at _______ resort helps alleviate the stress of taking exams and all. I need a new car to get to/from home to hang out with all my HS friends. Etc." Really? I'm willing to bet that for 97.638% of working people their job (esp. an entry-level position) is more stressful than college was. As the old saying goes, "You think your professors were tough? Wait until you work for a boss who has no tenure to protect her and who has deliverable deadlines to meet."

I don't think you watched the video. They dealt with this. Most borrowers owe less than $25,000. I would love a college degree, a new car and multiple vacations for that amount; but we all know that math doesn't add up. Despite what some folks want you to believe, the overwhelming majority of students who took out loans didn't do that and are actively working to pay it back. I know thinking of these people as lazy thieves makes it easier to hate them, but that's not who the vast majority of them are. Even if those people exist, I am not willing refuse help to everyone else who did it the right way.

 

[PSU_Lions_84]

Free community college.
Allow those who take out loans to be able to refinance them to lower rates.
Permit a certain percentage or an amount of the loan to be dischargeable in bankruptcy.
Certain majors have pre-established set costs: engineer degrees cost more than sociology, for example.
Give discounts or cheaper tuition for students who go year round and finish in three years or less instead of four.
No interest accumulation on principle while in school.
Higher tax breaks for those who pay the loans back.


I don't care for PGA boulevard traffic (jk), but otherwise great area.

Florida is phasing out public schools grades K-12. Desantis and co. have just about killed it. Soon it will only be for the really poor kids as a form of babysitting, unless you live in a very well off neighborhood with a great public school where the housing/rent prices pretty much keep everyone else locked out of the school. Pretty soon all of the money I saved on college pre-paid will go right to the K-12 private schools. Instead of going into debt for college, go into debt for primary education, deny yourself and the kids anything fun in life for 13 years plus, hope you/spouse/kids don't get detrimentally sick/laid off, and delay your retirement for several decades for private K-12 education. Smoke and mirrors designed to raid your pocket, disguised as "choice."

I don't disagree that what you learn in each individual major/class isn't worth it, but that's why I pointed out my buddy who says things that sound like don't go to college, but then trusts his own business/money to college educated folks. Same goes with surgeons, accountants, lawyers, architects, mechanics, cooks, etc. No one says let me go to the least education person here. I know we all poke fun at majors we deem unworthy, but the point of college is to produce an educated person, not a job candidate.


I don't think you watched the video. They dealt with this. Most borrowers owe less than $25,000. I would love a college degree, a new car and multiple vacations for that amount; but we all know that math doesn't add up. Despite what some folks want you to believe, the overwhelming majority of students who took out loans didn't do that and are actively working to pay it back. I know thinking of these people as lazy thieves makes it easier to hate them, but that's not who the vast majority of them are. Even if those people exist, I am not willing refuse help to everyone else who did it the right way.

Good points, BiochemPSU. This is just idle curiosity on my part - don't mean to be personal and don't mean to derail the current discussion: If car loan forgiveness were a thing, would most folks be okay with that, do you think? Maybe forgiveness for loans on cars made in America? (18 months ago I drove a UHaul truck for North Carolina to Texas as a favor to a cousin-in-law. Drove deeper south until I got to I-10, then headed west for what seemed like three weeks. Passed by the Hyundai plant in Alabama. That thing seemed to stretch for MILES!!) I understand the difference between investing for the future (college degree) vs. a necessary but wildly diverse vehicle choice; just curious what folks would think about that kind of gambit. Or how about mortgages? TIA!

 

[Midnighter]

I did four years in Army SF before college. Had the old (very old?) GI Bill. Also picked up a wife while in North Carolina. She eventually got a job which gave me a tuition break - that kicked in late in my third year. Worked in the PS VA center (shout-out to Brian Clark!) on work-study. Breaks usually involved driving to/from North Carolina to visit the in-laws - good times!!

Sounds like you have as much evidence for loans not being used for spring break as I do for them doing so, so I think we can agree to disagree on that point.

Thank you for your service, brother/sister. (Sorry I don't know which - no offense intended.) Where was your permanent duty station?

Heidelberg, Mannheim, Sarajevo.