GOAT status

[18IsTheMan]

I see a lot of the bickering going on about Clark and whether or not she's the GOAT for WBB. There's always been a discussion of whether you need a title to be considered the GOAT in a sport or among the GOATs, but the consensus has always been that, yes, you need a title. However, it's funny to see with Clark's career wrapping up, some are taking the position that it's absolutely absurd to even suggest that a player needs to have won a title to be considered the GOAT.

The conflict for me comes because it's supposed to be a team sport. When does individual achievement trump team achievement? I just don't see scoring a ton of points as being the sole passport to GOAT status.

Case in point: Karl Malone is the 3rd leading scorer in NBA history. His name NEVER comes up is GOAT discussions. He doesn't even make most top 10 lists. If scoring points is what it took, you'd think the 3rd leading scored all-time in NBA history would at least get a mention here and there, but he doesn't.

 

[18IsTheMan]

And I'm not arguing that she's NOT the GOAT. Outside of our women's team, I wouldn't be able to name 5 WBB basketball players ever. So I'm hardly an expert. I'm just struck by people acting like it's an absolutely absurd notion that having a title is a pre-requisite for being considered the GOAT.

 

[BftCocks09]

I see a lot of the bickering going on about Clark and whether or not she's the GOAT for WBB. There's always been a discussion of whether you need a title to be considered the GOAT in a sport or among the GOATs, but the consensus has always been that, yes, you need a title. However, it's funny to see with Clark's career wrapping up, some are taking the position that it's absolutely absurd to even suggest that a player needs to have won a title to be considered the GOAT.

The conflict for me comes because it's supposed to be a team sport. When does individual achievement trump team achievement? I just don't see scoring a ton of points as being the sole passport to GOAT status.

Case in point: Karl Malone is the 3rd leading scorer in NBA history. His name NEVER comes up is GOAT discussions. He doesn't even make most top 10 lists. If scoring points is what it took, you'd think the 3rd leading scored all-time in NBA history would at least get a mention here and there, but he doesn't.

In my opinion, titles shouldn't matter for the most part. The term GOAT in this case refers to the greatest PLAYER of all time. I don't care how good the player is, the TEAM has to accomplish the feat of winning a title. No matter how amazing a player is they will not win a game on their own. It has to come down to individual stats, awards, and accomplishments. Nobody claims that a single player is the sole owner of any one championship so why in the world would we use that as a measuring stick for that individual player? Now, you can certainly point to individual performances in championships and crunch time to signify another level of greatness for any player, but the overall outcome of any game shouldn't factor in very heavily in my opinion. I don't buy in to the argument that the greatest "make everyone around them better." That may be true to some extent, but the fact is that you are still using a different player's ability to determine someone's greatness. That's a flawed rationale in my opinion.

 

[18IsTheMan]

In my opinion, titles shouldn't matter for the most part. The term GOAT in this case refers to the greatest PLAYER of all time. I don't care how good the player is, the TEAM has to accomplish the feat of winning a title. No matter how amazing a player is they will not win a game on their own. It has to come down to individual stats, awards, and accomplishments. Nobody claims that a single player is the sole owner of any one championship so why in the world would we use that as a measuring stick for that individual player? Now, you can certainly point to individual performances in championships and crunch time to signify another level of greatness for any player, but the overall outcome of any game shouldn't factor in very heavily in my opinion. I don't buy in to the argument that the greatest "make everyone around them better." That may be true to some extent, but the fact is that you are still using a different player's ability to determine someone's greatness. That's a flawed rationale in my opinion.

In Clark's case, I'm assuming she scored a bunch of points, though, because the team's success depended on her scoring a bunch of points. Put her on a more balanced team and she probably doesn't score nearly as many points and doesn't get the record. So it seems her claim to GOAT status is a product of her situation. Were there players on those UConn teams who could have set scoring records if the team's success were solely dependent on them? I don't know. Plausible though.

In this case, it seems that players on more balanced teams are penalized.

I never even heard about a WBB goat until this season with Clark as it coincided with her scoring record. How come the the previous scoring record holder wasn't considered the GOAT?

 

[31 Flavors]

LSU never won a title, never came close, when Pete Maravich played for them. Cincinnati didn't win one with Oscar Robertson, nor did Houston with Elvin Hayes, but all are way up there in the discussion for the GOAT in the men's game.

 

[ToddFlanders]

Put her on Carolina and it's 4 straight championships. She had a very good supporting cast - but no one that could step up (or did step up) on the biggest stages. Very rarely, if ever, do you see the best player just dominating every game in the tourney, leading their team to the championship. You have to have some help.

Look at the last two championship games. Does LSU win if a career 6 ppg scorer, doesn't hit 5-6 from three and lead the team in scoring? Angel Reese got all the accolades, a 5th year senior (again, who was a career 6 ppg) won that game. Does USC win if a freshman (another 6ppg scorer BTW) doesn't play out her mind? You have to have other players that can step up to win these huge games. If they aren't there, there's only so much the best player can do.

 

[BftCocks09]

In Clark's case, I'm assuming she scored a bunch of points, though, because the team's success depended on her scoring a bunch of points. Put her on a more balanced team and she probably doesn't score nearly as many points and doesn't get the record. So it seems her claim to GOAT status is a product of her situation. Were there players on those UConn teams who could have set scoring records if the team's success were solely dependent on them? I don't know. Plausible though.

In this case, it seems that players on more balanced teams are penalized.

I never even heard about a WBB goat until this season with Clark as it coincided with her scoring record. How come the the previous scoring record holder wasn't considered the GOAT?

Oh I'm in full agreement there regarding players on deeper teams being penalized. However, in my opinion that's not the argument. We can't base the conversation on what a player COULD have done in a different situation. All we can do is debate what we've seen and what happened. I think, as evidenced by their performance this year, that you put Paopao or Tessa in an offense that is designed almost solely for them to jack up threes 30 times a game and they would have some scoring records too. But again, that's not the situation they chose to put themselves in (to their credit I might add). I takes a very unselfish player to consciously choose to come to a program like SC where you know 1) you're going to share the ball with so many other players due to our depth and 2) you're going to probably work your behind off more on the defensive side of the ball than the offensive side.

So again, I think yes, they certainly are penalized in the sense that many of our players could put up much more gaudy numbers at other programs, but the simple fact is they didn't go to those other programs and they aren't putting up those gaudy numbers. It's a moot point for me. Not taking away anything from our players as they are obviously special, but they value championships and team accomplishments more than individual accolades. We're clearly the better team, but we don't have the GOAT. Those are two different conversations and that's ok.

As far as never hearing this debate before, let's just be real. No one cared enough about WBB enough to debate it until now. That's why Dawn and so many others are praising Clark. Clark, along with other players and teams, truly have made the product much more entertaining the last few years and so only now do people even follow and care enough to comment on who the GOAT is.

 

[18IsTheMan]

LSU never won a title, never came close, when Pete Maravich played for them. Cincinnati didn't win one with Oscar Robertson, nor did Houston with Elvin Hayes, but all are way up there in the discussion for the GOAT in the men's game.

I'm not arguing that Clark isn't among the GOATs. That much is obvious I suppose.

To my previous question, though, why wasn't the previous scoring record holder considered the GOAT?

 

[DarkCock]

Put her on Carolina and it's 4 straight championships. She had a very good supporting cast - but no one that could step up (or did step up) on the biggest stages. Very rarely, if ever, do you see the best player just dominating every game in the tourney, leading their team to the championship. You have to have some help.

Look at the last two championship games. Does LSU win if a career 6 ppg scorer, doesn't hit 5-6 from three and lead the team in scoring? Angel Reese got all the accolades, a 5th year senior (again, who was a career 6 ppg) won that game. Does USC win if a freshman doesn't play out her mind? You have to have other players that can step up to win these huge games. If they aren't there, there's only so much the best player can do.

Put A'ja Wilson on UCONN and they would have won 4 national championships and never lost a game. They won 2 national championships and lost only 3 games WITHOUT her in the 4 years she was at Carolina. Regardless of UCONN dominance, she still won a championship at South Carolina.

I think Dawn had it right, Clark is "one of the GOATs." I won't concede she was a better college player than A'ja. Wilson created as many open opportunities from her teammates as Clark by drawing double and triple teams (unfortunately, we didn't have great outside shooting) and she was a dominant player on the defensive end of the court, unlike Clark.

It seems the discussion is premature anyway. Don't we need to see Clark's pro career (and Olympic career) play out? I don't think we would talk about a men's basketball player being the GOAT of college basketball, if he had only a middling pro career.

(btw, Reese wasn't a 5th senior, but I get your point)

 

[18IsTheMan]

Put A'ja Wilson on UCONN and they would have won 4 national championships and never lost a game. They won 2 national championships and lost only 3 games WITHOUT her in the 4 years she was at Carolina. Regardless of UCONN dominance, she still won a championship at South Carolina.

I think Dawn had it right, Clark is "one of the GOATs." I won't concede she was a better college player than A'ja. Wilson created as many open opportunities from her teammates as Clark by drawing double and triple teams (unfortunately, we didn't have great outside shooting) and she was a dominant player on the defensive end of the court, unlike Clark.

It seems the discussion is premature anyway. Don't we need to see Clark's pro career (and Olympic career) play out? I don't think we would talk about a men's basketball player being the GOAT of college basketball, if he had only a middling pro career.

Yes, one of the GOATs for sure, I guess. It's inherently difficult to discern in college because you're talking about 100+ teams and thousands of players every year, many of whom never play each other. And there so many factors, one of which you talk about here.

Also, it seems to me that talk of Clark being the sole GOAT coincided with her scoring more points than Maravich, but there are so many flaws to that comparison, which have all been talked about on here before.

 

[ToddFlanders]

I'm not arguing that Clark isn't among the GOATs. That much is obvious I suppose.

To my previous question, though, why wasn't the previous scoring record holder considered the GOAT?

Don't forget, she also led the nation in assists - by a long shot. 8.9 apg - next closest was 7.3 apg.

 

[18IsTheMan]

Don't forget, she also led the nation in assists - by a long shot. 8.9 apg - next closest was 7.3 apg.

True, I assume...taking you at word since I don't follow close enough to know.

 

[18IsTheMan]

Just my opinion, which nobody but me cares about, is that GOATs find a way. You have good players, great players and then you have GOATs. You can explain away good or great players not winning titles for one reason or another, but I think to be THE GOAT, you find a way. You win a title.

 

[The Reel Ess]

Just my opinion, which nobody but me cares about, is that GOATs find a way. You have good players, great players and then you have GOATs. You can explain away good or great players not winning titles for one reason or another, but I think to be THE GOAT, you find a way. You win a title.

I can only think of two men in the NBA who could will their team to a win. If they were down by 1 or 2 and got the ball with seconds left, odds were in their favor. I'm sure you know the two I'm talking about. I can't think of any women who fit that bill. So, yes, she's as close to the women's NCAA GOAT as there is. If she had half the bench depth SC has they would be champs. But her career's not over yet.

 

[18IsTheMan]

I can only think of two men in the NBA who could will their team to a win. If they were down by 1 or 2 and got the ball with seconds left, odds were in their favor.

And that makes sense when you're talking about being the GOAT. It's the highest bar possible that only 1 or 2 players could reasonably lay claim to.

I didn't see the game last night, but per Twitter, after Clark blew up in the first quarter, our defender (Raven) pretty well shut her down the rest of the way. Biggest stage. Playing with a lead and you falter doesn't seem like GOAT traits to me.

 

[The Reel Ess]

And that makes sense when you're talking about being the GOAT. It's the highest bar possible that only 1 or 2 players could reasonably lay claim to.

I didn't see the game last night, but per Twitter, after Clark blew up in the first quarter, our defender (Raven) pretty well shut her down the rest of the way. Biggest stage. Playing with a lead and you falter doesn't seem like GOAT traits to me.

I believe she scored 18 in the first quarter, a final game record, and ended up with 30. A good night by any standard. But that means an average of 4 pts in each quarter after first. SC went to the bench and made good adjustments. Kitts and Cardoso providing all those offensive second and third chances. I think she could have easily scored more, but they adjusted and tried to use her as the decoy and the supporting cast was not up to the challenge. It was the right idea with Raven in Clark's pocket, but it failed.

 

[18IsTheMan]

I believe she scored 18 in the first quarter, a final game record, and ended up with 30. A good night by any standard. But that means an average of 4 pts in each quarter after first. SC went to the bench and made good adjustments. Kitts got a lot of minutes and it was devastating to have her and Cardoso providing all those offensive second and third chances. I think she could have easily scored more, but they adjusted and tried to use her as the decoy and the supporting cast was not up to the challenge. It was the right idea with Raven in Clark's pocket, but it failed.

She had more turnovers than shots made with Raven on her, right?

 

[The Reel Ess]

She had more turnovers than shots made with Raven on her, right?

Several of those were from teammates not handling a perfect pass. But yeah, pressure slowed her. Also, don't underestimate our bench talent. It's insane. It's probably better than the other 4 Iowa starters. Ashlyn Watkins plays like a full grown man.

 

[DarkCock]

Just my opinion, which nobody but me cares about, is that GOATs find a way. You have good players, great players and then you have GOATs. You can explain away good or great players not winning titles for one reason or another, but I think to be THE GOAT, you find a way. You win a title.

There are only 10 players on the floor at a time, so having the Greatest Player of All Time on your side should make you the favorite in just about any college game. Look at the kid at Purdue, he's good and all, but imagine Lew Alcindor playing today. In the end, we're just talking. No way to settle this.

 

[18IsTheMan]

Several of those were from teammates not handling a perfect pass. But yeah, pressure slowed her. Also, don't underestimate our bench talent. It's insane. It's probably better than the other 4 Iowa starters. Ashlyn Watkins plays like a full grown man.

I saw on Twitter our bench outscored theirs 36-0 or something crazy?

Also, per Twitter, we are supposed to be even better next year?

Yes, I get all my WBB info from Twitter.

 

[The Reel Ess]

There are only 10 players on the floor at a time, so having the Greatest Player of All Time on your side should make you the favorite in just about any college game. Look at the kid at Purdue, he's good and all, but imagine Lew Alcindor playing today. In the end, we're just talking. No way to settle this.

Respectfully disagree, especially considering our bench is likely better than 4 of their starters. She's only one person, at one position. She's everything they said she was.

 

[DarkCock]

Respectfully disagree, especially considering our bench is likely better than 4 of their starters. She's only one person, at one position. She's everything they said she was.

Right. But I don't think she is the GOAT. A great low post player like A'ja, for instance, would have given them a better chance yesterday because she can rebound and play defense. Iowa's shooters would guarantee we wouldn't double. Again, it's all opinion. I think she's great, I just wouldn't call her THE Great.

 

[uscphan]

My guess is that those who are considered amongst the greats of their respective sports, and that never won a ring would give up their stats for the ring. It's why they play. So to me, to be THE GOAT, you have to win a championship, maybe even championshipS!

 

[18IsTheMan]

My guess is that those who are considered amongst the greats of their respective sports, and that never won a ring would give up their stats for the ring. It's why they play. So to me, to be THE GOAT, you have to win a championship, maybe even championshipS!

This is true. Many players have said they would trade their accomplishments for a title. I've never heard a player say they'd trade a title win for better personal stats.

 

[The Reel Ess]

My guess is that those who are considered amongst the greats of their respective sports, and that never won a ring would give up their stats for the ring. It's why they play. So to me, to be THE GOAT, you have to win a championship, maybe even championshipS!

I think we're comparing the GOATs of male pro sports with a woman whose pro career has yet to begin.

 

[adcoop]

Put her on Carolina and it's 4 straight championships. She had a very good supporting cast - but no one that could step up (or did step up) on the biggest stages. Very rarely, if ever, do you see the best player just dominating every game in the tourney, leading their team to the championship. You have to have some help.

Look at the last two championship games. Does LSU win if a career 6 ppg scorer, doesn't hit 5-6 from three and lead the team in scoring? Angel Reese got all the accolades, a 5th year senior (again, who was a career 6 ppg) won that game. Does USC win if a freshman (another 6ppg scorer BTW) doesn't play out her mind? You have to have other players that can step up to win these huge games. If they aren't there, there's only so much the best player can do.

I agree with most of this, but have to push back some. Kate Martin, Sydney Affolter, and Hannah Steulke was a very good supporting cast around Caitlin. Gabby Marshall was a weak link offensively, but she could shoot a stand still jump shot and played good defense. Iowa's problem was they had absolutely no depth and were small. Also, Caitlin has holes in her game that most ignore. They just look at the points. Those holes were exploited especially against us. In watching Caitlin, I noticed that the primary part of her game was the Right-to-Left Stepback 3. She is always trying to get to that. She does not really want to drive and when she does she is looking to pass. She is an okay finisher around the rim and that needs to improve on the next level. Her Mid-range game is non-existent and she rarely takes a shot in that area. The better teams had her scouted this way and you saw her have periods of struggle against Holy Cross, West Virginia, UConn, and us. She got points, but they were inefficient points. So inefficient in our case that we got the W.

 

[18IsTheMan]

On top of all of this discussion, I'm just not sure how you can compare players from today to players before 2022 in the pre-bracket era. Apples and oranges.

 

[uscphan]

I think we're comparing the GOATs of male pro sports with a woman whose pro career has yet to begin.

No male/female comparisons intended. But I do agree that college vs pro is relevant. Caitlin has her pro career to define if she is THE GOAT. A’ja is no where close to being in the college GOAT discussion, but have her win a few more championships with the stats that she is currently putting up and she will be in the discussion for women’s BB GOAT for sure. Breanna Stewart is in the same boat.

 

[ToddFlanders]

True, I assume...taking you at word since I don't follow close enough to know.

And I kind of understated the accomplishment, she actually led the nation in scoring and assists 3 times each and finished her career 1st in NCAA history in career points and 2nd in history in career assists.

I do think the lack of a championship will always be an asterisk on her resume - but mostly because what fun is sports debate if everyone agrees?!? I will say that watching her, she's the only women's player I've seen that can still do pretty much anything she wants even if the other team is keyed in on her. There have been so many great players from USC, UConn, Tenn, etc., but they also had teams loaded with talent (women's basketball has always been very top heavy in terms of where talent goes). So to see her take a very good, but not close to elite, team to the championship game twice makes me give her a tip of the cap as the college GOAT.

Once she's in the WNBA though, there will be no excuses. She'll need to win multiple titles to stay in the conversation for the overall GOAT.

 

[TN-Gamecock]

Caitlin broke so many records that I don't know how she could not be the GOAT...

She was breaking records up until the 4 quarter of the championship game.

Here is a list of 23-24 records that she broke:
Which records has Caitlin Clark broken in the 2023-24 NCAA season? - AS USA

 

[Evilchicken]

Caitlin is the GOAT. The records she’s broken in the reg season and tourney, while singled-handedly carrying Iowa is nothing short of miraculous. She struck fear in opposing fan bases like no one else ever has, and she helped whip an undefeated SC squad in the F4. I’ll leave the Bball technicalities up to you folks, but CC is the best to have ever played. She shouldn’t be penalized for having to carry Iowa on her back.

 

[Carolina Doc]

Caitlin is the GOAT. The records she’s broken in the reg season and tourney, while singled-handedly carrying Iowa is nothing short of miraculous. She struck fear in opposing fan bases like no one else ever has, and she helped whip an undefeated SC squad in the F4. I’ll leave the Bball technicalities up to you folks, but CC is the best to have ever played. She shouldn’t be penalized for having to carry Iowa on her back.

Yep. Pretty clear.

 

[Prestonyte]

I believe she scored 18 in the first quarter, a final game record, and ended up with 30. A good night by any standard. But that means an average of 4 pts in each quarter after first. SC went to the bench and made good adjustments. Kitts and Cardoso providing all those offensive second and third chances. I think she could have easily scored more, but they adjusted and tried to use her as the decoy and the supporting cast was not up to the challenge. It was the right idea with Raven in Clark's pocket, but it failed.

''Over the final 3 quarters, Clark shot just 5-of-20 from the field, including 2-of-9 from 3-point range. Clark finished with 30 points, but at 10-of-28 shooting, South Carolina’s defense won the matchup.''

3 takeaways from South Carolina's national championship win over Iowa capping undefeated season

South Carolina takes down Caitlin Clark and the Iowa Hawkeyes for a national championship, going undefeated in 2023-24.

www.saturdaydownsouth.com

 

[Evilchicken]

''Over the final 3 quarters, Clark shot just 5-of-20 from the field, including 2-of-9 from 3-point range. Clark finished with 30 points, but at 10-of-28 shooting, South Carolina’s defense won the matchup.''

3 takeaways from South Carolina's national championship win over Iowa capping undefeated season

South Carolina takes down Caitlin Clark and the Iowa Hawkeyes for a national championship, going undefeated in 2023-24.

www.saturdaydownsouth.com

What’s your point?

 

[18IsTheMan]

What’s your point?

My takeaway: she didn't play that great for the final 3 quarters, which is a credit to our D. Yeah, she had 30 points, but took 28 shots.

 

[The Reel Ess]

''Over the final 3 quarters, Clark shot just 5-of-20 from the field, including 2-of-9 from 3-point range. Clark finished with 30 points, but at 10-of-28 shooting, South Carolina’s defense won the matchup.''

3 takeaways from South Carolina's national championship win over Iowa capping undefeated season

South Carolina takes down Caitlin Clark and the Iowa Hawkeyes for a national championship, going undefeated in 2023-24.

www.saturdaydownsouth.com

The game reached a point where their only strategy was her shooting threes with a hand in her face, often from way beyond the arc-desperation time. They tried having her dish to others and the rest of the team was not up to the task. It was Clark or nothing.

 

[The Reel Ess]

nm

 

[TN-Gamecock]

Breanna Stewart is in the same boat.

Breanna Stewart won four national championships at UCONN all the while being the MVP of the National Championship games. In terms of success, Breanna may be the best player of all time...that includes the WNBA also. We'll see how Caitlin does before claiming her the best of all time.

One thing is for sure, Caitlin is the GOAT at the collegiate level AND of getting TV viewers, and asses in seats. It is now being report that 24 million people tuned into the National Championship game. Without Caitlin and IOWA in the game, the viewership would've been maybe a 1/3 of that...

 

[DarkCock]

The game reached a point where their only strategy was her shooting threes with a hand in her face, often from way beyond the arc-desperation time. They tried having her dish to others and the rest of the team was not up to the task. It was Clark or nothing.

We didn't double to take the ball out of her hands. Shockingly (to me) we didn't hedge screens either. Whoever was guarding her was tasked with getting over screens and defending on her own. Raven just won the one-on-one battle. Clark is outstanding, but definitely not the GOAT.

 

[18IsTheMan]

There were some great WBB players back in the 90s. WBB just didn't have the coverage then that it gets now. The powers that be decided to make Clark a star, and they did because she had the game to back it up. Probably could have been done with some of those previous players though.